ADDRESS FOR PAPERS. (Hansard, 16 March 1865)

§ VISCOUNT STRATFORD DE REDCLIFFE

rose, in pursuance of the Notice which he had placed on the table a few days ago—to make Inquiry of Her Majesty's Government as to the State of certain Negotiations respecting the joint Boundary between Turkey and Persia; and to move for Papers relating to the Construction of an official Map of that Frontier. The subject was not one of immediate urgency, but still it was one of very considerable interest and importance. The negotiations in question came under his notice twenty years ago. Those negotiations regarded the great and extensive boundary between the two Empires of Turkey and Persia, a subject on which no small interest existed 1728 at the time, and still existed, with regard to the policy of this country in the East. The policy which had been pursued by successive Administrations during the last twenty years had now ceased to have for one of its principal objects the maintenance of peace in that part of the world known by the name of the Levant, though somewhat extended beyond the usual acceptation of the term, and embracing the relations between those two great Empires which he had named. There was always a great proneness between those two Powers to get into quarrels one with the other; and unfortunately a frontier of 700 miles in length gave ample opportunities for dissension and at times even for open hostility. At the period to which he referred, after a great deal of bickering between the two Governments, a quarrel broke out on the frontier; and it required immediate action on the part of a friendly Government in order to prevent actual hostility from taking place, to a degree which threatened, not only to interrupt the tranquillity of that part of the world and even to effect materially the interests, particularly the commercial, interests of Europe. At that time Russia was in the position of a leading mediating Power towards those two Empires. It was not necessary to point out to their Lordships that there was some degree of risk in leaving so great an opportunity of interfering in the affairs of those two Empires at the discretion of a Power so often tempted as Russia then was to encroach on the territory or the independence of her neighbours. It became, then, a matter of pressing duty for Her Majesty's Ambassador to act on the spot, without waiting for the instructions of his Government, as there were no communications by steam or electricity in those days, and delay might have compromised the peace of the whole region. Under such circumstances, he thought it his duty to propose to the Russian Minister that he should consent to mediate jointly with Her Majesty's Ambassador. Fortunately he had to deal with a gentleman of very conciliatory character. Fortunately, too, the instructions of that gentleman permitted him to accede to the proposal of his British Colleague. The two Ambassadors, therefore, joined in trying to persuade the Turkish Government to adopt conciliatory measures with a view to preventing hostilities, and ultimately effecting a satisfactory accommodation. It became necessary to apply to the Sultan himself; and the Sultan, 1729 as well as his Government, were finally disposed to accept the proffered advice. At the same time there were great difficulties, from the animosity existing between the two parties, the distance from the scene of mediation, and other circumstances. However, a Commission was appointed with the consent of the two Governments; and the transactions which led to it, as well as the Commission itself, were subsequently confirmed by Her Majesty's Government. Negotiations ensued, which, like all negotiations in that part of the world, were protracted to a great length. In the end, however, they were successful; and in the autumn of 1847 the result was made known as the Treaty of Erzeroum. It then became a question how the treaty should be carried out; and it was decided that fresh power should be given to the Commissioners, the Russian and the English still acting together and giving their advice and assistance to the two Mahomedan Plenipotentiaries, on whom devolved the duty of carrying out the negotiations. Such, however, was the animosity prevailing between the principal parties that, notwithstanding the conclusion of the treaty, the local negotiations respecting the frontier gave birth to renewed difficulties. At last it was found necessary to resort to the expedient of removing the negotiations from the political and diplomatic ground to one of a purely scientific character. Accordingly, it was agreed by the two Governments that a map should be constructed of the whole frontier, extending from the summit of Mount Ararat to the head of the Persian Gulf. One of the great difficulties to be encountered arose from the barbarous nature of the different tribes who inhabited the border countries on each side, their nomadic habit of shifting their quarters at different seasons from one side to the other, and their doubtful allegiance. It was, therefore, an object of diplomacy to frame the treaty in such a manner that these nomadic tribes should be fixed by the settlement, so as to prevent the quarrels which were so frequent among them, and to preserve from consequent disturbance the peace of that quarter. The British and Russian Commissioners were ordered by their respective Governments to repair to the theatre of discussion, and, with the assistance of engineers and other suitable officers, nominated by the two Mahomedan Governments, to carry out this important work. It was begun, and had been carried on to a cer- 1730 tain extent, when the Crimean war broke out; and on that occasion he (Lord Stratford) suggested to the noble Lord then at the head of the Foreign Office that, perhaps, the Russian Government might accept the offer of continuing the operation notwithstanding the war. The Russian Government, however, looked on the matter in a different light; and the consequence was that the proceedings were interrupted for some years. The Crimean war having come to an end, the negotiations were renewed, and had been going on for several years at a considerable expense of trouble and money. Some four years ago he was informed, in reply to a question which he asked in the House, that the negotiations were still on foot; and he therefore deemed it the more important that the House should be informed whether, at this moment, the same negotiations were proceeding; whether the map (which was on a very large scale and very elaborate) was likely to be soon completed; and also, whether the Government intended to lock it up in the archives of the Foreign Office, or whether, by rendering it accessible to the public, they would make a large and valuable addition to geographical science? He was glad to have the opportunity, as this country had been so often placed in opposition to Russian policy, of bearing testimony to the fact that from the beginning of these negotiations to the end the two Governments had acted most cordially together, Russia showing an earnest desire to co-operate with England for the preservation of peace in that part of the world. What he wished, in conclusion, to ask the noble Lord at the head of the Foreign Office was, whether the negotiations were still pending with respect to the boundary between Turkey and Persia; whether the frontier map was in course of completion; and whether when finished it would be made accessible to the public? Without asking for all the paper, which, referring as they did to a distant period, could only be produced with much difficulty and at a large expense, he hoped the noble Lord would consent to lay upon the table Copies of the Treaty itself, together with his (Viscount Stratford de Redcliffe's) instructions and despatches in respect thereto.

§ EARL RUSSELL

The noble Lord has asked me a question upon a subject of considerable interest, and I shall no doubt be able to afford him all the information he can desire relative to the matter. The negotiations have lingered a very long time, but the map has been slowly approaching completion, although it has been a source of considerable difficulty, The work began in 1843, when British Commissioners were appointed, and in 1847 the Erzeroum Treaty was made, and upon the execution of that treaty the British and Russian Governments agreed that they would give advice to Turkey and Persia in the matter. The noble Lord is quite justified in describing the question as one of great importance, for the settlement of the disputed boundaries between Turkey and Persia will go far towards preventing war between those Powers. A great deal of correspondence has taken place on this subject, and among the papers is a despatch written by my noble Friend Lord Palmerston some years ago, in which a proposal was made to the Russian Government that England and Russia should agree upon a proper line of frontier, submit it to Turkey and Persia, and give their support to that Government which should adopt the line so to be submitted. I am constantly making the same inquiry as my noble Friend has just made in respect of the progress of this work; but, as my noble Friend knows, there are considerable difficulties to be overcome in fixing this boundary. I am, however, positively told that there is every prospect of the work being brought to an early termination. The last instructions stated that it would be completed by the end of the present month. Under these circumstances, I hope my noble Friend will not ask for the production of the papers. I am unwilling to put the country to any expense which can he avoided in connection with the matter; for the expense of the commissions for settling the boundary between Turkey and Persia has been very considerable. The commission at Erzeroum and Bagdad, from January, 1843, to June, 1847, cost say £7,000; the Turco-Persian Boundary Commission from June, 1732 1848, when Colonel Williams left England, to December, 1857, when the Commission returned home from Constantinople, £33,700; the expenses incurred at St. Petersburg, from early in 1858 to December, 1862, amounted to £12,000; and those in London, from January, 1863, to this month, to £4,400; making a total expenditure for these Commissions of £57,000. My noble Friend will therefore see that the Government have not been inactive in this matter, and I trust he will be satisfied with the explanation which I have given.