THE EARL OF DALHOUSIErose to call the Attention of the House to the Condition of the Military Hospitals at Netley and Woolwich; and to ask the Secretary of State for War,
He offered no apology, during the present dearth of business in their Lordships' House, in calling their Lordships' attention to a most important subject, and he could assure his noble Friend the Secre-of State for War, that the observations he should offer would be made in no hostile spirit, either in reference to the noble Lord himself, or his administration of the Department, with which, on the contrary, he had every reason to be satisfied. The subject to which he wished to call attention referred to our military hospitals, especially to two large hospitals, one of which was in full operation, and the other in course of erection. In order to render the sub- ject perfectly intelligible he must go back to the time of the Crimean war. There was no doubt that war was, with all its horrors and all its hardships, the occasion of introducing into the administration of the army of Great Britain many most satisfactory changes. It was to that epoch we must go back for all the improvements which had taken place in military hospitals and for most of those that had been introduced into military barracks. The question of hospitals was that to which he wished to call the attention of their Lordships' on the present occasion. It was at the time of the Crimean war that the defects in our hospitals were first discovered by the public; although it had been well known long prevously to the military authorities that those hospitals were in a most ineffective, almost discreditable, condition. So far as he might be personally concerned, he had no objection to take upon himself blame for the condition in which they were. The fact was, that public Opinion had not sufficiently recognized the importance of the principles which were making their way in civil hospitals, and the Government despaired of obtaining from the House of Commons the money which was required to place the military hospitalsupon a proper footing. The events of the Crimean war disposed the public to be far more liberal in this respect, and in the year 1856 he first planned and proposed to Parliament to sanction the erection of a great hospital at Netley. The circumstances under which that hospital was commenced he should take the liberty shortly to detail. Anticipating that there would be great difference of opinion with reference to the site of a great hospital like this, intended for the accommodation of a thousand patients, and also with reference to the plans according to which it should be built, he took his steps accordingly. In the first instance oppointed a Committee, consisting partly of military and naval men, and partly of civilians, who should examine the whole country and say where it was most expedient to erect such an hospital—bearing in mind that it was intended for the reception of invalids from abroad, and that therefore it was necessary that it should be in some situation which was accessible from the sea. After much consideration that Committee fixed upon a site on the banks of the Southampton Water, near Netley Abbey, as the most healthy, most convenient, and most suitable locality, 1101 under all considerations, for the erection of a great military hospital. He next had to determine upon the plan to be adopted, and again he appointed a Committee, whom he directed to inspect all the great hospitals both of the Continent of Europe and of Great Britain, in order to ascertain the plan which would be best adapted to serve the purposes which he had in view. This was also accomplished, and according to that plan the hospital of Netley was erected. One of the great objects for which Netley Hospital was intended was to supersede Fort Pitt in the reception of military invalids from abroad, and as the place at which they should await their discharges or go into hospital. A more unfortunate place for the reception of invalids than Fort Pitt never existed. Whenever any large body of invalids landed from the East, the place became a scene of the utmost demoralization, and many a non-commissioned officer had to regret, that while waiting there for his discharge he lost his stripes and the pension attached to them, and many a man who arrived there with good service marks upon his arm lost them and was discharged without the benefit to which these marks entitled them. To avoid this was one of the objects contemplated by the erection of Netley Hospital. Another object was to establish there an army medical school, and a third to create a general hospital for invalids who on landing from abroad might be suffering either from wounds or from diseases incidental to the climates of the countries in which they had been serving. He had great satisfaction in knowing that the building had now been completed, that a regular medical school had been established, and that great success had attended the measures adopted for the discharge of invalid soldiers—a success which had been increased by the plan which had been introduced by his noble Friend for the discharge of home invalids at the headquarters of their own regiments. But all this had not been effected without the greatest possible difficulty. Those who disapproved the plans upon which the hospital was built did all they could to interfere with its success, and he believed that so far were—he would not say the conspiracies against this hospital, but the endeavours to overthrow it carried, that he was not without reason for saying that the building was offered to the Commander-in-Chief as a barrack, and afterwards to the Admiralty to be applied to any purpose they pleased. 1ª fact, everything was 1102 done that could be done to get rid of that which had turned out to be one of the finest establishments the nation could have had for the purpose intended, and one which would bear comparison with any similar institution in any part of the world. He visited the hospital at Netley the other day, and he was gratified to find that the testimony of the medical officers bore him out in the assertion that the site was not an unhealthy one, as some persons had reported. A medical school had been established, which showed that that part of the arrangements had been carried out with the greatest possible success, and the arrangements made for the invaliding of soldiers who came from India and from our Colonies were so complete that he was informed that within three weeks after their arrival, such of them as did not require hospital treatment were discharged and forwarded to their places of residence without being exposed to or falling into the temptation of spending a shilling of the money with which they might arrive in this country. Under these circumstances, he maintained that the success of Netley hospital had been, notwithstanding the reports to the contrary, so great as to reflect upon those who in the first instance attempted to prevent its erection, and who had done their best to run it down as an establishment on which the public money ought not to have been expended. The only fault which he had to find was, that the quarters for the medical officers had been curtailed of certain appliances, the plans for which were approved while he was in office, and all for a paltry saving of £4,000 or £5,000, which was struck off the Estimates by the late Lord Herbert when he was Secretary of State. In all respects but the one to which he was about to allude the hospital was complete, as he had intended it. What was still wanted was a proper landing-place or pier. He did not complain of there being no such thing at present: but what he did complain of was that, as far as he could read the Army Estimates, what was about to be placed there, though admirable, no doubt, to the extent to which it went, would be quite insufficient to meet the necessities of the hospital. What was required was a pier to the deep water, so that the invalids might be transferred at once from the transports to the hospital by means of railway trucks. At present, there were only two places, and certain periods of the tide when even boats could approach the landing place, and then the 1103 invalids had to be carried from the boats to the hospital. His noble Friend contemplated building a pier at an expense of £6,000. This might remedy the inconvenience to some extent, but it would not remedy it to the full extent. He had been informed by naval men that the character of the shore was such that nothing would be more easy than to run out a light pier serviceable for all the purposes, so that large ships might lie alongside. So much for Netley.
- 1. Whether the Vote of £6,000 is all that is intended to be applied to the Erection of a Landing Place at Netley.
- 2. Whether the Hospital at Woolwich is intended for a General Military Hospital or only for the Use of the Garrison at Woolwich.
He now came to the hospital which he had also been down to look at—a very large building going on in the neighbourhood of Woolwich, which had cost, or would cost, the public £200,000. The building was one for which his hon. Friend at the head of the War Department was in no way responsible in his official capacity, for it was left him as a legacy on his accession to office. With reference to the hospital he went down prepared to see something singularly unique in its construction. It was built on the principle of those hygeists who, he thought, had carried their opinions in this matter too far. He found it a most gorgeous hospital with a handsome design. He found it built in blocks of wards so composed of glass that it would be absolute cruelty to put an invalid into such wards. He would ask any one of their Lordships if, when Struck down in illness, the first object was not to relieve the brain and eye from the oppression of too much light; whereas in these wards the plan seemed to be throw as much glare into them as possible. The whole system was one which he could only call the "glass and glare" system. If it were intended for a flower show, nothing could be more admirable, or if it were intended for a museum nothing could be more delightful; but if it was intended for sick patients it was absolute cruelty to put them there. The site, too, was an unfortunate one. It was built on the side of the hill, the foundation rested almost entirely on the clay, and the result was that those foundations had perished to a certain extent. He did not pretend to have any knowledge of engineering or of building himself, but when he inspected the building he did so under circumstances singularly favourable to it, for he went round the building with the contractor, his friend Mr. Myers, and although that gentleman naturally desired to gloss over these failures he (the Earl of Dalhousie) saw enough in some formidable supports and buttresses 1104 still unremoved to assure him that the rents in them were almost as likely to be as fatal to the hospital as was "the rent the envious Casca made" in the robe of Caesar. The hospital could only be intended for one of two things—either for a general hospital or a garrison regimental hospital. The site and the locality in which it was placed were inappropriate for a general hospital, and, moreover, there was neither attached to it, nor did there seem any proposition to attach to it, any quarters for the medical officers. In the next place, if it was a general hospital, they would allow him to point to the inappropriate-ness of its position. If meant for invalids in the army coming from abroad, these invalids were brought in large transports which could come up no further than Gravesend; there the invalids would have to be transferred into small steamers, and the best point at which these steamers could discharge the invalids was at the landing place at the Arsenal, which was two miles from the hospital on Woolwich Common. If it was not to be a general hospital and was to be a regimental hospital for the garrison at Woolwich, he thought the expenditure of £200,000 most unnecessary—it was paying too dear for the whistle. In the first place, the garrison at Woolwich rarely exceeded 4,500 men; in the second place, they possessed already an exceedingly favourable specimen of the old style of hospital. So good was it that when he went round it the other day he found that it was capable of being adapted to all the new requirements. The new hospital on Woolwich Common was intended to make up 650 beds; the present accommodation was 330, and there had never been so many as 250 of the beds in use at one time. Then, in any case, why remove a regimental hospital, convenient for all its purposes, from its vicinity to the troops and its vicinity to the medical officers? But, whether it was to be a general or a regimental hospital, he was prepared to show that it was not fit for the first and that it was beyond the necessities of the second—even if it were required at all. He had gone further; he had visited the regimental hospital at Hounslow. That was also on the principle that he would again take the liberty of calling the "glass and glare" principle. He found there a very pretty little hospital, but much larger than the necessities of the case demanded. He found the hospital attached to the barracks that accommodated five-and-a-half troops 1105 of cavalry, which hospital held sixty or sixty-five beds. He found one wing of the hospital shut up and locked up, it never having been used; and he was gratified to find that the four small comfortable wards, in which the worst cases in the hospital were accommodated were as airy and quiet rooms as could be desired in a private house; and he saw that which was condemnatory of the glass hospitals, for the lower panes of glass had been painted a most beautiful dark green, in order to exclude that light which those who designed the new hospitals seemed to think the first necessity of a sick room. He was about to give credit for them to the commanding officer, who however, assured him that it had not been done by his orders, but that it was done by order of the medical officers of the first regiment to whom the hospital was handed over. He went a little further, and found this hospital was fitted up in the most extraordinarily expensive manner. Now, where money was no object at all, to have those expensive fittings in the hands of those who knew how to manage them was all well enough; but the first fittings which struck him were the gasfittings, which were most expensive, with large globes; and not only were they expensive but most intricate. He found that an orderly who had been in the habit of attending to those globes had broken some of them, and that down had come the clerk of the regiment with a bill of five guineas for "barrack damages." He carried his examination a little further, and found that a sink intended for the refuse water of the hospital was fitted with a porcelain pan, and that an attendant having let a vessel fall upon this pan it was smashed, when down came that regimental clerk with a bill of six guineas for "barrack damages." Now, a sheet-iron pan, painted white, would have done equally well as this one of porcelain, and to replace it, if it had been injured, would have cost only a small sum. If there was one thing which more than any other was likely to cause dissensions between the men and the officers of the army, it was this subject of "barrack damages." There was not a soldier who heard him—and he spoke from personal experience—who did not know how fertile a source of discontent these "barrack damages" were. During the nine years that he was connected with the administration of the army, knowing the complaints that had been made of this system, he turned over and over in his 1106 mind the question whether it could be got rid of. He found that with justice to the public he could not get rid of it. The public property must be protected, and those who wilfully damaged it should be made to pay; but at the same time those who had the levying of those barrack damages should levy them in the most gentle manner. Nothing should be charged for except the case was clearly one in which a charge ought to be made; and, on the other hand, care should be taken by the Government not to furnish barracks and hospitals with such expensive fittings. They ought to be fitted up in the cheapest and most substantial manner, so that there should be the least chance of injury, whether by design or accident. This was a subject which he thought his noble Friend the Secretary for War would do well to take into consideration. He could not help thinking that all these, he must call them unnecessary knick-knacks in hospitals were introduced partly from the habit which prevailed in the War Office of consulting hygeists not connected with the army. To a certain extent he believed he was to blame in this matter; for at a time when it was absolutely necessary to put the hospitals on a proper footing, and to adopt proper principles of hygiene, he did employ civivilians for that purpose, because he did not find to his hand in the army gentlemen sufficiently educated in those principles, or all events, who had had experience in them. But times had changed since, and the principles of hygiene were now studied by the medical officers of the army with the same assiduity and zeal, and with the same desire to turn them to good account, as they were by civilians; and when he looked at the Army List he found that there was at this moment a branch of the War Department called "the Sanitary Branch," and that "Inspector General P. Logan, M.D." was at hand to advise the Department in any matter of sanitary arrangement. He found also that in the Military Medical School at Netley one of the most distinguished authorities on the subject had been appointed Professor of Military Hygiene. Under these circumstances he could not see that it was at all necessary to have recourse to the advice of civilians; but he was told that even up to this hour his old friend, Dr. Sutherland, whom he had consulted about the hospitals at Scutari and other places, was still advising the War Office. The name of Dr. Sutherland was so hidden away on the list that he could 1107 not find out exactly where he was, but he had no doubt he was not far from the elbow of his noble Friend, or from that of the Under Secretary for War. His noble Friend ought at once to make up his mind to give up such a system, for he had connected with the Medical Department of the army persons capable of advising him, and none more so than the Director General of the Medical Board. In conclusion he had to express a hope that in building hospitals his noble Friend would see that they were not merely Temples of the Sun, and that in building barracks he would see that they were something more than Temples of the Winds.
EARL DE GREY AND RIPONMy Lords, there is nothing more natural than that my noble Friend, who has for long taken so great an interest in everything connected with the sanitary condition of the soldier, should have brought this subject under the notice of the House. It is also natural that he should have entered into a criticism respecting these hospitals, because he was Secretary of State for War when the building at Netley was commenced. I, however, stand neutral between Netley, Woolwich, and Hounslow, because I have no connection with the parentage of any one of the three. But I I am anxious to preface the few words which I shall have to address to your Lordships by congratulating my noble Friend on the fact that he was the Secretary for War who planned and commenced the erection of the noble Hospital at Netley. The plans he devised and the scheme he laid down have been fully carried out, with the exception of some very small points to which I shall advert, by those who have followed my noble Friend in office. And I am glad to be able to concur with him in saying that the fears which were expressed by some persons with respect to the site of Netley Hospital have not been realized. It may be quite true that some of the details of the arrangement of that Hospital, which was planned in 1856, have since been subjected to criticism; for, remembering that it was only during the Crimean war that our attention was called to the important subject of military hospitals, it is not to be wondered at if, during the nine years that have elapsed from 1856 up to the present time, Lord Herbert and others who came after my noble Friend should have had their attention directed to improvements suggested since the Crimean war. I 1108 do not, however, want to enter into any controversy on these points; for, judging my noble Friend's work from the results, it has been eminently satisfactory. But with respect to the comparison he introduced between Netley and the hospital of Lord Herbert, it did strike me that the same remark would apply to it as that which might have been made in respect of certain criticisms on my noble Friend's own work. It might be said that while the work is in progress, and until a practical test can be applied, it might be better to suspend our judgment. With respect to the pier at Netley, no doubt the sum taken in the estimates for one 203 yards long is not for a pier to go out to such deep water as would enable transports to bring the sick troops alongside of it; but when that question was considered during the time my late Friend Sir George Lewis held the post of Secretary for War, it was found that there would be very great difficulty in getting transports such as those used by the Government to come up to Netley, and that if we required them to pass up and down the Southampton Water, the expense of their hire would be very considerably increased. In consequence of that difficulty, the old contract has been continued, which provides for the troops being landed at Spithead; but, instead of being brought up in any steamer which may chance to be at hand, as has been the case hitherto, under the new arrangement the Admiralty will provide a special vessel for the conveyance of the invalided soldiers, and this vessel will have every comfort necessary for the men during their short voyage from Spithead to Netley. These vessels drawing very little water will be brought to the pier to be erected. It must be borne in mind that the construction of a pier 1,200 yards long, as the noble Earl suggested, would give the invalids a walk of not far short of three-quarters of a mile on their landing; whereas if they could be brought in by these small vessels all that inconvenience would be spared them. However, if this plan does not answer, nothing to be done this year will prevent a larger pier being made, and I should be the first man to propose it if it were shown to be necessary. The subject was very carefully considered by myself, the First Lord of the Admiralty, and the local officers when they were there last year, and the plan now adopted is that which was then thought to be best. I turn now from Netley to the hospital at Woolwich. The 1109 noble Earl says that when he went down there he found a gorgeous building. The word "gorgeous" might induce your Lordships to fancy that it was a building which had been erected at a greater expense for its size than that at Netley; but the fact is that the cost of the two per bed was about the same, as nearly as possible. With regard to the plan on which it is built, it is upon what is called the "pavilion" plan, although my noble Friend calls it the "glass and glare" system. On such a point I should not think of putting forward my own opinion, which would be worthless, against that of my noble Friend; but I may say that it was the plan which was approved by Lord Herbert, and which has been recommended by successive Committees and Commissions appointed to report upon the best arrangements for military hospitals. In 1856 my noble Friend himself appointed a Committee to report upon the design for a hospital at Aldershot which reported in favour of the pavilion plan. He also appointed the Sanitary Commission, of which Lord Herbert was Chairman, and nothing does my noble Friend greater honour than the appointment of that Commission and its results. That Commission reported in favour of the pavilion plan, which means long galleries built out at right angles to a corridor, so as to leave lights on both sides of the wards. That principle has been adopted at a new military hospital at Vincennes and at a new civil hospital at Paris. The tendency of the present day appears to me to be to build civil hospitals on that plan, and there appears to be in favour of it a great weight of competent authority, which ought to be judged competent by the noble Lord, since his own Committees and Commissions reported in that sense. I am not responsible for the erection of the hospital on that plan, but I should be perfectly prepared to take the responsibility if I had acted on the advice by which Lord Herbert was supported. My noble Friend asks me whether it is to be a general or a regimental hospital, and his language might leave on your Lordships' minds an impression as to the nature of the two kinds of hospital which would not be quite correct. The difference between a regimental hospital and a general hospital is this—that the one is conducted and managed by the medical officers of each regiment, and the other by a special general staff of medical officers entirely distinct from the regiments to which the men belong. A general hospi- 1110 tal is conducted in the manner in which a hospital would be conducted in time of war. The late Lord Herbert was of opinion that in time of peace the medical officers should be so trained in the duties of a general hospital, that when an emergency arose, and it was necessary to establish such a hospital at the seat of warlike operations, they would be able at once to undertake the duties. One of the difficulties during the Crimean war was, that the regimental system had been so exclusively adopted, that medical officers did not understand the general system, and were not prepared to work it. Lord Herbert thought that one hospital would not be ample to train the medical staff. If the Netley staff were sent away suddenly to the seat of war, there would be no one to take up their duties at the general hospital for those invalids who were sent home to this country. Lord Herbert came to the conclusion that there ought at least to be two hospitals upon the general principle, and after due consideration he came to the conclusion that Woolwich was the most suitable place for the second. That hospital has been erected as a general hospital, and will be conducted as a general hospital would be in time of war. The hospital which now exists is worked at present, as far as the personnel and general arrangements go, on the principle of a general hospital. My noble Friend says that if the Woolwich Hospital is merely intended to receive the sick from the garrison at Woolwich, it is larger than is necessary. He puts the garrison at 4,500, though at present it is nearer 5,300. When the hospital was designed, the accommodation was calculated for a garrison of 6,500, and at that time the estimated average of sick was 10 per cent, so that accommodation was provided for 650 men. But since that time, owing to the measures for the amelioration of the sanitary condition of the soldier, commenced by my noble Friend, and continued by his successors, Lord Herbert, General Peel, and Sir George Lewis, the proportion of sick to healthy men in the army has very much diminished, and the average, which at that time was 10 per cent, is now reduced to 7 per cent; consequently, hospitals which were built on a calculation of an average of 10 per cent, are hardly likely to be filled now that the average is reduced to 7 per cent. With regard to the hospital at Hounslow, which was erected on the plan of Lord Herbert, I must point out, though it does not make 1111 much difference, that the hospital there is intended not only for the men at Hounslow, but for the detachments at Hampton Court and Kensington, which, however, are not considerable. That, too, was a hospital built on the calculation of a 10 per cent average, and the difference between that and the present 7 per cent, must be taken into consideration. My noble Friend went on to speak of the expensive fittings of the hospitals. I do not recollect the case of the gas burner, but I do happen to recollect the case of the sink. No doubt, it would have been easy to have a cheaper sink, but it must be remembered that it is of great importance in these hospitals to have a sink of a proper description which can be easily kept clean. If you have one of iron or other such material, it is much more liable to rust and to foul than one which has a perfectly smooth surface. My noble Friend, I think, has been misinformed as to hospital breakages. With regard to the broken sink to which the noble Earl referred, the usual course was taken in this Instance. The sink was broken by carelessness, and the usual practice is to charge for it, but when the matter came under my notice, I considered the subject fully, and I came to the conclusion that it was not desirable to charge the man the whole value, £6, and I adopted a rule that any of the more expensive articles of barrack fittings should be used as seldom as possible, and that when any were broken, only such a sum should be charged as would operate as a fine to prevent carelessness. That course, I hope, will meet the views of my hon. Friend. I have only now to remark upon the noble Earl's objections to the practice of consulting civilians or hygeists. I think we ought to speak with gratitude of the great advantages we have derived from the assistance of civilians, whose suggestions for the improvement of the sanitary condition of barracks and hospitals have been adopted by successive Secretaries of State. With the noble Earl I look forward to the time when the medical officers of the army will be possessed of as ample knowledge as any civilian upon the subject of sanitary hygiene. My noble Friend alluded to Dr. Logan and to the Professor of Military Hygiene at Netley. Dr. Logan is a member of the present Sanitary Committee, and the Professor of Military Hygiene is a civilian. The constitution of that Committee, which is consulted by the Secretary of State on all sanitary questions, was 1112 altered by Sir George Lewis, and it now consists of the Quartermaster General as president; of Dr. Logan, the head of the sanitary branch of the Army Medical Department; and of Captain Belfield, the head of the barrack building branch, who are ex officio members. The other members of the Committee are Captain Galton, who has done so much as an engineer for sanitary improvements, and Dr. Sutherland. I certainly think Dr. Sutherland is entitled to the gratitude of the country, and of the Government for the services he has so long rendered. My noble Friend consulted him, and placed him upon the first Commission, and I do not think the time has yet come when we can entirely dispense with the services of all those who were members of that Commission. There are three other Members who are specially appointed by the India Department. In dealing with this subject the Government is acting upon the experience of the Commission which was appointed by my noble Friend, and that experience was confirmed by the Indian Sanitary Commission appointed by General Peel, and presided over with so much ability by my noble Friend Lord Stanley—so that we have the latest as well as earlier authority to sanction the course we have pursued.
§ THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHI have not seen the Report upon the sanitary condition of the troops in India; but I am sure that anybody who knows anything about that country knows that troops in India are more healthy under canvass than in houses, and hospitals under double canvass are better adapted to save patients than hospitals established in houses. The great secret is good ventilation, and that point cannot have been attended to by those who recommended great windows and great doors. Now, great windows and great doors produce great draughts, and great draughts are likely to kill patients, whereas good ventilation will tend to preserve their lives and restore them to health. I could not hear what was stated by the noble Earl who introduced this subject without being satisfied that these hospitals have been built with great extravagance, and without due attention to those circumstances which are most conducive to the health of the inmates. I doubt whether any hygeist—or, I prefer the old word, doctor—I doubt whether any doctor ever looked over the plans of these buildings. It would rather appear, from what he had said, that they were the plans of some 1113 ambitious architect, whose chief aim was to erect a handsome and extravagant building. How could any man have planned such large windows ! They no doubt admit light, very much to the inconvenience of the patient, and when open they admit a great deal too much air. In hospitals the only points to be considered are to make the patients comfortable and to restore them to health, and any more ambitious attempts are out of place. Although the hygeists may have made some improvements, I confess I do not understand all these new curiosities which are intended to maintain the health of troops. The health of troops, like the health of individuals, is to be maintained by the exercise of their own good sense, by following the advice of their officers as to what they should avoid and what they should do. It is by self-management alone that the health of human beings can be preserved; and if men will neglect the suggestions of common sense they must expect to suffer for their imprudence, and it will be impossible to prevent them from doing so.
EARL DE GREY AND RIPONexplained that the building at Woolwich was not the plan of any ambitious architect, but was drawn up in the usual manner by the Engineer Department, under the supervision of the local engineer of the Staff, with the approval of the Army Medical Department and the Sanitary Committee.
§ THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHthought it ought also to have had the approval of the Secretary of State, who was solely responsible. The Secretary of State was not to act upon the advice of others without making himself fully acquainted with all the details, and he doubted very much whether if any Secretary of State had examined into the plans of the building mentioned he would have adopted them.
§ EARL GRANVILLEthought their Lordships would all allow that there never was a Secretary of State who paid so much attention to the subject of army hospitals and barracks as the late Lord Herbert. That noble Lord, while never seeking to avoid responsibility, naturally took the advice of the professional persons who were best acquainted with the subject, and who were most competent to give it.
THE EARL OF LONGFORDwas glad to hear that the War Department had erected one successful hospital—for he believed that Netley was a success—although even in that case there was the drawback 1114 of there being no means of getting to it. It was not surprising that the Department had failed in other hospitals. The establishment of a large hospital was not simply a medical question, but involved considerations of construction, expense, discipline, supplies, and organization. Every Department of Military Administration was involved, and it was hopeless to look for successful combined action as long as the Departments were scattered over Whitehall, Spring Gardens, Great George Street, Chelsea Hospital, and other places. The first step towards improvement would be in the concentration of all the Military Departments under one roof, or in close contiguity. The offices of War Administration should be concentrated in one place, as was proposed for the Courts of Justice. As to the employment of civilians, he went further than the noble Earl (the Earl of Ellenborough), for he thought that military men were almost competent to manage military affairs; and if the civilians now employed in military affairs, even in some of the highest Departments, were to be employed in other branches of the public service, he believed that neither the military nor any other Department would suffer. He could not but regret that the reductions in present and past years of the number of troops should be necessary to meet the extravagant cost of the service of the civil branch.
THE EARL OF DALHOUSIE, in reply, said, he never intended to undervalue the services of Lord Herbert in all that related to the Department over which he presided. For himself, he had always set his face against the "pavilion" plan of hospital at Woolwich, and when it was attempted to alter the plans at Netley he opposed it, and thereby entailed upon himself the anger of all who patronized that species of art. The noble Earl had not noticed the fact connected with the first hospital at Hounslow, that it had been found necessary to paint over the windows in order to avoid danger to the patients. He only desired the exercise of economy in the fitting up of hospitals, and of common sense in their management and arrangement.
§ THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGEsaid, he must bear testimony that the liberality shown by the War Office in this matter had been well bestowed; and though he thought and always had thought that it was very objectionable to have expensive fittings in an hospital, if it were possible 1115 to avoid them, he considered that the liberality which had been bestowed in this case had been well considered and was very satisfactory. He did not pretend to enter into the building controversy about "glass and glare"—he must leave it to more scientific minds—but he would willingly bear testimony to the great convenience and comfort which was afforded by the new hospital at Netley. Netley was a great success, and this despite of what had fallen from the noble Earl (the Earl of Dalhousie). It is hardly fair to say, as my noble Friend (the Earl of Longford) has said, that the hospital is scarcely approachable. It was never contemplated that there was not to be a pier, but it was justly felt that it was one of the details which must follow the general building. It was thought wise to finish the Hospital itself, and then to look after the details, It was hardly fair to say that the Hospital could not be approached. With reference to the Hospital at Woolwich, they could only judge of it when it was occupied, which it was not at present.
§ House adjourned at half past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.