Lords Sitting of 27 June 1865

MINUTES.
Sat First in Parliament—The Earl of Morley, after the Death of his Father.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Expiring Laws Continuance * (226); Poor Law Board Continuance (227).
Second Reading—Peace Preservation (Ireland) Act (1866) Amendment * (200); Greenwich Hospital (179); Fire Brigade (Metropolis) * (215); Turnpike Trusts Arrangements * (216); Ayr Burghs Election * (186); Falmouth Borough * (201); Comptroller of the Exchequer and Public Audit * (212); Inland Revenue * (221); Indemnity * (222); Compound Spirits Warehousing * (224).
Committee—Prisons (155); Salmon Fishery Act (1861) Amendment (199); Carriers' Act Amendment * (198); Foreign Jurisdiction Act Amendment [H.L.] * (211); Rochdale Vicarage [H.L.] * (213); Naval Discipline Act Amendment [H.L.] * (214); Sugar Duties and Drawbacks * (195).
Report—Carriers Act Amendment * (198); Foreign Jurisdiction Act Amendment [H.L.] * (211); Local Government Supplemental (No. 4) * (208); Navy and Marines (Property of Deceased) * (220); Rochdale Vicarage [H.L.] * (213); Naval Discipline Act Amendment [H.L.] * (214); Sugar Duties and Drawbacks * (195).
Third Reading—Land Debentures (Ireland) * (219); Constabulary Force (Ireland) Act Amendment * (168); Navy and Marine (Wills) * (169); Pier and Harbour Orders Confirmation (No. 8) * (184); Naval and Marine (Pay and Pensions) * (177); Harbours Transfer * (182); National Gallery (Dublin) * (196), and passed.

TYNE IMPROVEMENT BILL.

  THIRD READING.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH, having presented two petitions from Tynemouth and South Shields against this Bill, which stood for third reading to-night, said,

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  he must, in the first place, explain how it happened that he had not presented these petitions earlier, that reason being that he had not seen the Bill put down on the paper. All he could now do was to present the petition and request the attention of the noble Duke (the Duke of Somerset) to them. He regretted to see that there was another Bill to be read the third time that night, by which it was intended to transfer to the Board of Trade all the powers now exercised by the Admiralty over the harbours of this country. Now that he looked on as a most unwise step, believing, as he did, that those powers would be much better exercised by the Admiralty, whose views were, generally speaking, of a higher nature, and whose first duty was towards the seamen. Up to recent times there was a bar on the harbour of the Tyne river, which was now, however, almost entirely removed. While that bar existed, a vessel, whatsoever dangers she might previously have encountered, the moment she passed it found herself in still water; but now that it had been taken away, the great dangers to be overcome were those to be met with in the inmost recesses of the harbour itself. During the last year nineteen vessels had been stranded at the entrance to the harbour, instead of eight or ten which was the usual average, and in the case of three of these vessels, forty-four lives were lost. He feared that so long as the harbour remained as it was, dreadful loss of life must be expected to take place year after year. Under those circumstances he hoped the noble Duke at the head of the Admiralty would allow the third reading of the Bill to be postponed until he had obtained the opinion of a competent officer sent down expressly to report on the present position of the harbour.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETthought the proposal of the noble Earl was scarcely reasonable in the case of a Private Bill which had passed through the House of Commons and been before a Committee of their Lordships' House. Those who were interested in the navigation had had ample opportunities of being heard before Committees of that and the other House, and it was not fair that they should withhold their opposition until the third reading of the Bill, and then ask that it should be postponed until the Admiralty had instituted an inquiry into the subject. The Admiralty had, in fact, nothing to do with the Tyne Harbour, which, like most other
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  commercial harbours, was a few years ago transferred to the management of the Board of Trade.
  LORD RAVENSWORTHsaid, that the Committee of their Lordships which sat upon this Bill bestowed great attention upon it, and if any one had any complaint to make against its provisions, they ought to have appeared before the Committee and stated their objections.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, that no doubt the petitions were intended to have been presented before the Bill was referred to a Committee. Unfortunately those from whom he received them omitted to inform him when the Bill would pass that stage, and it was only recently that he discovered it in the list of Bills waiting for third reading. He was as anxious as any one that the harbour of the Tyne should be improved, but no one could look at the chart of that harbour without seeing that the proper mode of improving it was to excavate the Black Middens.
  EARL GREYsaid, he saw no necessity for adopting the course suggested by the noble Earl in reference to this Bill.
  Bill read 3a.

THE DISSOLUTION OF THE PARLIAMENT.
EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, before the reading of the Orders of the Day, I wish to make a communication to your Lordships on behalf of Her Majesty's Government with respect to the Dissolution of Parliament. After the statement which the Chairman of Committees was good enough to make to the House last night regarding the state of the Private business, I and one of my Colleagues communicated with Lord Palmerston on the subject. Her Majesty's Ministers greatly regret having to interfere with the finishing of the Private business before the House; but, at the same time, there are various and important reasons why the dissolution of Parliament should not be postponed for any considerable time after the Public business has been brought to a conclusion. Therefore, without giving any distinct pledge on the subject, Her Majesty's Government have thought it necessary to advise Her Majesty to prorogue Parliament on Thursday week, the 6th of July. With regard to the anticipated interference with the Private business, in consequence of the dissolution, I do not think the inconve-

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nience will be so great as has been supposed, as, since the appeal made by the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees to the House, considerable progress has been made in that business. With regard to the class of Bills referred to by the noble Lord yesterday—namely, those to which parties are offering opposition—I do not think that the limitation of the time for the prorogation of Parliament will affect them in any great degree. It appears to me that there are weighty reasons to induce Her Majesty's Government not unnecessarily to delay the dissolution of Parliament. Such delay would cause great expense to candidates, who all earnestly wish to proceed as soon as possible with the elections. The delay would also most injuriously affect trade and manufactures, which are much affected by the electioneering contest about to take place, and I am quite sure a greater amount of evil would be caused to the country by delaying the dissolution, than would result from the non-completion of so much of the Private business as yet remains to be done. Under these circumstances Her Majesty's Ministers are of opinion that the prorogation should take place on Thursday the 6th July, which would give more than ample time for disposing of the Public business.
LORD REDESDALE: Of course I have not a word to say against the decision of Her Majesty's Government. It is no doubt their duty to do the best they can for the general interests of the country, and having come to the conclusion to dissolve Parliament at an early day I can no longer contend against that determination. I hope, however, that the amount of injury to those interested in the Private business will be less than was at first expected, as I believe that by the end of the Session there will be but few, if any, Private Bills undisposed of, as a great number of those Bills have been passed within the last few days, and in nearly every instance where the Bills will remain undisposed of the fault will rest with the parties themselves. I hope no attempt will be made to hang up any of the Private business until next Session—a course which in my opinion would be clearly wrong. Any intimation of such a nature would have the effect of preventing amicable arrangements between the contending parties which otherwise might possibly take place, and I am very glad that no notice of such an intention
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has been given by the noble Earl. I think I shall be able this evening to appoint additional Committees, which will facilitate the disposal of the remaining business. I shall watch the progress of the business carefully, and we shall be enabled in a few days to see what prospect there will be of concluding it before the rising of the House.

PRIVATE BILLS.—RESOLUTION.
Standing Order No. 179. Sect. 1, considered (according to Order).
LORD REDESDALE LORD REDESDALE moved—
"That Wednesday next shall be considered as a sitting day with respect to any petition praying to be heard upon the merits against any Bill mentioned in either of the two classes of private Bills."
LORD BROUGHAMdid not rise to oppose, but to second, Lord Redesdale's proposal for expediting the business, and hasten the dissolution so necessary for preserving the peace and for relieving all parties from the anxieties, labours, and enormous expense under which so many were now suffering. But he never could see measures taken to expedite the Private Business of Parliament without rendering the tribute of justice to the memory of the illustrious man whose loss we daily have to deplore on all questions, whether of peace or war, of foreign or domestic policy, his illustrious friend, the Great Duke, never to be replaced. When in conjunction with him he (Lord Brougham) had referred the new Standing Order to a Committee of this House, the Duke said, "Why not propose our great plan?" Lord Brougham answered that the Committee was certain to reject it. "Never mind," said the Duke, "we can but be defeated, and then we retreat upon the lesser one." Accordingly, we were defeated, and the present Standing Orders were adopted, first by the Committee, and then by the House, and effected a great improvement in our Private Business, and were afterwards, though with great reluctance, adopted by the other House. It was, however, a far inferior measure, as the Duke justly said, to that which they had worked out together. That was the true remedy for saving both time, labour, and expense. It consisted in having a Joint Committee of the two Houses, seven Commoners and five Peers, the Duke at first was for six of each, but with his wonted sagacity he soon perceived the necessity of giving a majority to the Commons, and with his

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never-failing candour he assented to this change. The whole matter of each Bill, both law and fact, were to be referred to this Committee, with a professional Judge to assist and inform it on questions of law and evidence, but in no way to guide or control. The Report made to each House was to be conclusive only on the facts, leaving the whole question of the Bill to the entire and free decision of each House. Such an improvement in our course of legislation would effectually prevent the enormous labours, delay, and expense of a double inquiry in each case, and although the pains taken by an able and experienced Member of the other House had effected considerable improvements of late, yet he (Lord Brougham) was convinced that this plan thus sanctioned by his illustrious Friend must sooner or later be adopted, as the real and effectual remedy for evils at present so severely felt by all but those interested in the continuance of the evil.
Resolved, That Wednesday next be considered as a Sitting Day with respect to any Petition praying to be heard upon the Merits against any Bill mentioned in either of the Two Classes of Private Bills.—(The Chairman of Committees.)

PRIVATE BILLS.
Standing Order No. 178. Sect. 9. considered (according to Order), and dispensed with for the Remainder of the Session.—(The Chairman of Committees.)
DIVISIONS OF THE HOUSE.
  STANDING ORDER NO. 25 AMENDED.
  Standing Order No. 25. Sect. 2. considered (according to Order), and amended as follows: After the Words ("to be kept on the Table for that Purpose") add ("and the Tellers shall be appointed"); and after the Words ("as indicated by the Sand Glass") add ("or after such shorter Time as the Tellers appointed on both Sides may agree to.")—(The Chairman of Committees.)
PRISONS BILL—(No. 155.)

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  Clause 68 (Prohibition of Sentence of Solitary Confinement).
  THE EARL OF CARNARVON THE EARL OF CARNARVON moved the omission of the clause. The Select Committee of their Lordships' House, which had inquired very fully into this subject, had expressed an opinion in favour of this punishment, as being very
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  valuable, especially in cases of short sentences. The clause formed no part of the Bill as it emanated from the Home Office, but was inserted in the Bill in the other House. The abolition of this punishment had no connection with the subject-matter of the Bill, which was for the regulation of the administration of prisons. The abolition of the punishment of solitary confinement was a matter of judicial procedure, which ought not to be imported into a Bill of this sort. The Bill did not apply to military prisons, and military tribunals, as their Lordships were aware, were frequently in the habit of imposing sentences of three and six months' imprisonment, with solitary confinement for one week in every month. How was it possible that such a sentence could be carried out if this clause were passed? There were often offences committed in prison which required to be dealt with by means of solitary confinement, and if the justices were deprived of this power they would be unable to deal with them. He hoped, therefore, that the noble Lord (Earl Granville) would agree to the omission of this clause.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the noble Earl was quite right in saying that the clause formed no part of the Bill as it left the Home Office, but he could not agree that it was an anomaly in a Bill of this character. The clause, he believed, had been unanimously agreed to by the Select Committee of the other House, and he hoped their Lordships would agree to retain it in the Bill.
  LORD HOUGHTONthought the clause went beyond the scope of the Bill. No doubt very exaggerated ideas were entertained at one time of the effects of solitary confinement; but still, for certain purposes, it was a useful punishment, and Her Majesty's Government would do well to omit the clause.
  The Marquess of SALISBURY and The Earl of ROMNEY urged the omission of the clause.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that in deference to the opinion of the noble Lords he would consent to strike out the clause.
  Clause struck out.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVON THE EARL OF CARNARVON moved an Amendment to Schedule I., Rule 34, which he said was rendered necessary by the omission of Clause 68. It was admitted that where hard labour in any

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  form was imposed low diet could not be inflicted. The object was to make the punishment in cases of short sentences sharp and severe, and therefore that object would be defeated if hard labour were imposed, thus rendering it impossible to give the prisoner a low diet. He therefore moved to omit certain words from the clause which would prevent the addition of hard labour in short sentences.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Schedule II. (List of Gaols to be closed.)
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONdesired to be informed why the gaol at Poole was not included within its operation. The Committee ascertained that the average number of prisoners in that gaol was only two, and the maximum number in the course of the year only eleven. The food of the prisoners was not cooked in the gaol in the usual manner, but there was a contract with a neighbouring hotel, and the dinners of the inmates were brought in upon trays by the servants of that establishment. Several prisoners were allowed to sleep in one cell, and he was not sure that two had not been permitted to occupy the same bed. The tread-mill was so constructed that one prisoner could turn the wheel; and when the governor went out he was compelled to lock up the one or two prisoners who might be in the gaol, and trust to their own industry for the performance of the tasks imposed upon them.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that he did not know why this gaol had been left out of the schedule, but he was sure that there must be some good reason for its omission. He would inquire into the subject, and would answer the noble Earl's question upon a future day.
  Schedule agreed to.
  The Report of the Amendments to be received on Thursday next; and Bill to be printed, as amended. (No. 228.)

GREENWICH HOSPITAL BILL—(No. 179.)

  SECOND READING.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSET, in moving the second reading of the Bill, said, it was founded on the Report of a Royal Commission. Having pointed out the principal clauses of the Bill, the noble Duke said, that as there was no objection to the general principle of the Bill, he should content himself with moving that it be read a second time.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Duke of Somerset.)
  THE EARL OF HARDWICKEsaid, that it had been repeatedly represented that after the passing of this Bill the Hospital would remain very much as it was before. It appeared to him, however, that the Bill proposed to substitute in lieu of the present Hospital a fund which should be entirely at the disposal of the Admiralty, which was to have the complete and entire control of the revenues of the Hospital, and to have the appointment of the pensioners. The Bill, therefore, must be regarded as entirely abolishing Greenwich Hospital as it was generally understood, and to hand over its revenues to purposes quite foreign to the purpose for which it was founded—namely, that of being a great almshouse for the reception of aged and wounded seamen. It now seemed to be the desire of the Admiralty to get rid of the pensioners altogether. The noble Duke had entirely changed his opinion on this subject since last year, when he expressed a strong opinion that the building should be retained for the purposes to which it had been so long applied, and that the revenues should be kept distinct; whereas, the Bill proposed not only to take away the building from the seamen, but also to place the revenues in the hands of the Admiralty, who would have to create a new office for its management at a great annual expense. Now, he might be asked what arrangement he was prepared to advise? He replied that the revenues could be better managed if a Commissioner were placed over them, whose accounts would be audited and submitted to Parliament. The management of the property of the value of £200,000 a year would require a certain number of clerks at the Admiralty, and constitute an imperium in imperio, while the Admiralty had quite enough to do in governing the navy. And yet the estates would not be managed as efficiently as if they were under a Commissioner with a steward in charge of them. He (the Earl of Hardwicke) would keep the Hospital for the unmarried seamen, and with regard to the married men, he would give them pensions outside. If the Hospital was not then sufficiently filled he would reserve a part for the cure of diseased and wounded men, and in time of war it would again revert to its ancient purpose. The officers at present in the Hospital he would have liberally compensated, and he would have placed

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  the three captains on the list of retired Admirals. There were two remarkable instances of such, as both Captains Cook and Lord Rodney had been on the Greenwich Hospital list, and afterwards returned to active service. He deeply regretted the step taken by the Admiralty.
  THE EARL OF COLCHESTERexpressed his opinion that the Bill would not work so well as the Government expected.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSET, in reply to the observations of the noble Earl (the Earl of Hardwicke), said, that the Bill was only what had been shadowed out in a memorandum which he had laid upon the table some time ago, and which he believed had met with the general approbation of both Houses of Parliament. Pensioners who were not quite worn out felt that a residence in Greenwich Hospital was a monotonous sort of existence—a kind of monastic life—and, no doubt, very many of them would gladly avail themselves of the permission to go out and live with their friends.
  Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

SALMON FISHERY ACT (1861) AMENDMENT BILL—(No. 199.)

  COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into a Committee read.
  THE EARL OF MALMESBURYsaid, that though he had several Amendments to propose on this Bill, he had no wish to oppose its passing. He was desirous that the salmon fisheries should be protected and improved, but not at the expense of private rights, and he hoped that in revising the Bill their Lordships would remember that two years ago they had rather hastily taken upon themselves to decide several points in opposition to the opinion of the Lord Chancellor, three ex-Chancellors, another noble and learned Lord, and the two noble Earls who led the two sides of the House. The consequence was that a noble Lord who had been very zealous for the Bill came down the other night conscience-stricken and admitted that the Bill had been a failure; that it had committed great injustice, and that it must be remedied, if justice was to be expected from that House. He hoped that their Lordships in considering the Bill would not be carried away by a salmomania.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  Clauses 1 to 13, inclusive, agreed to.
  Clause 14 (Ex-officio Members of Board).
  THE EARL OF MALMESBURYproposed an Amendment, providing that no person should be a conservator who was not the owner or occupier of fifty acres of land abutting on the stream within the limits of the fishery district.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYobjected to restricting the discretion of the magistrates in the selection of these officers.
  Amendment negatived.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clauses 15 to 30, inclusive, agreed to.
  Clause 31 (Order for Entry of Water-Bailiff on Land).
  THE EARL OF MALMESBURYobjected to the extraordinary powers conferred upon watchers to enter upon premises and to remain there for three days and nights, and therefore moved the omission of the clause.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, the clause was only an extension of a clause in the Irish Salmon Fishery Act.
  LORD CHELMSFORDsuggested that the clause should apply to premises not being a dwelling-house or garden.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYagreed to the Amendment.
  Clause amended, and agreed to.
  Clauses 32 to 39, inclusive, agreed to.
  Clause 40 (Commissioners to inquire as to fixed Engines).
  LORD CHELMSFORDsaid, that the clause gave to the Commissioners unusual and arbitrary powers, and moved that it be omitted from the Bill.
  On Question, that the said Clause stand Part of the Bill? their Lordships divided:—Contents 13; Not-Contents 7: Majority 6.
  Amendments made; The Report thereof to be received on Thursday next; and Bill to be printed, as amended. (No. 229.)

  CONTENTS.

  Westbury, L. (L. Chancellor.)

  Abinger, L.

  Clandeboye, L. (L. Dufferin and Claneboye.)

  Somerset, D.

  Llanover, L.

  Lovat, L.

  Clarendon, E.

  Stanley of Alderley, L. [Teller.]

  De Grey, E. [Teller.]

  Granville, E.

  Sundridge, L. (D. Argyll.)

  Saint Germans, E.

  Gloucester and Bristol, Bp.

  859

  NOT-CONTENTS.

  Malmesbury, E. [Teller.]

  Denman, L.

  Monteagle of Brandon L

  Redesdale, L.

  Chelmsford, L. [Teller.]

  Somerhill, L (M. Clanricarde.)

  Cranworth, L.

ROMAN CATHOLIC SCHOOLS.

  QUESTION.
  THE MARQUESS OF WESTMEATHasked the Lord President of the Council, If his Lordship is aware that Mr. J. D. Morell, late one of Her Majesty's Inspectors of Roman Catholic schools, who was dismissed from that Office on the 4th day of March, 1864, has been appointed as Inspector of Roman Catholic schools by the Royal Commissioners of the Patriotic Fund with the sanction of the Committee of the Council of Education?
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that he had made inquiries on the subject, and it appeared that Mr. Morell was appointed by the Commissioners of the Royal Patriotic Fund previous to his dismissal from his office of Inspector of Roman Catholic Schools.
  THE MARQUESS OF WESTMEATHwished to know whether the noble Earl thought that the appointment should be sanctioned by the Government?
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that the Government had no voice in the matter.

LIVERPOOL BOROUGH PRISON.

  QUESTION.
  THE MARQUESS OF WESTMEATHasked Her Majesty's Government, Whether it has authorized a Curtain to be drawn over the Ten Commandments in the Chapel of the Liverpool Borough Prison, so as completely to obscure them from Observation while the Romish so-called Altar is therein displayed and the Roman Priest performs his services therein?
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that this was a matter for the justices of Liverpool to decide. No authority had been asked for and none had been given by the Home Office in the matter.

HYMN BOOK FOR THE ARMY AND NAVY.

  QUESTION.
  THE MARQUESS OF WESTMEATHinquired, Whether the Hymn Book entitled, Hymns Ancient and Modern, for use in the Services of the Church, has been adopted as the authorized Hymn Book for Her Majesty's Army and Navy? He understood that the Hymn Book in question had been
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  issued to the army and navy, with orders that no other work of the kind should be used for the service, and that it was bound up with the Prayer Books furnished to our soldiers. The noble Marquess quoted various passages from the hymns to show that they were either derived from or founded upon the Roman Catholic breviaries and missals, and maintained that their language was inconsistent with the principles of the Church of England, and countenanced doctrines which the Articles of that Church expressly denounced as "blasphemous fables and dangerous deceits." He complained of the insidious manner in which these doctrines were being introduced into the army and navy, and asked whether it was true that that Hymn Book had been inflicted on our soldiers and sailors.
  EARL DE GREY AND RIPONsaid, the noble Marquess was correct in supposing that a selection of hymns from the book called Hymns Ancient and Modern, had been made for the use of the army, and had been bound up with the Prayer Book as he had stated. These Hymns had also been issued to the navy. With respect to the book itself, he had not been able to follow the noble Marquess in the extracts he had read, and was therefore unable to say whether or not those particular hymns were included in the selection; neither could he enter upon any theological discussion of the subject; but the admitted fact that these hymns had been recommended by the dignitaries of the Church, and were used in a thousand parishes in this country, was the best guarantee they could have that they contained nothing inconsistent with the received doctrines of the Church of England. The old hymns of Tate and Brady had become distasteful to the soldiers and sailors, and it was thought desirable to provide some new ones. These had been adopted with the approval of the Chaplain General of the Army and of a Committee of naval chaplains and officers. The noble Marquess complained that portions of these hymns were taken from the Roman Catholic books of worship; but he surely was aware that large portions of the Book of Common Prayer was taken from the ancient Liturgies, and that the Te Deum, for instance, was similarly derived. That there was nothing in this Hymn Book contrary to the doctrines of the Church of England, the character of the noble Duke at the head of the Admi-

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  ralty (the Duke of Somerset) was a guarantee. He would not enter into a theological discussion with the noble Marquess, but he was content to rest his defence of the course taken in regard to this question upon the approval of a body of men who understood such subjects better than he or the noble Marquess—namely, the great dignitaries of the Church and the clergymen of a thousand parishes.
  THE MARQUESS OF WESTMEATHsaid, he was much obliged to the noble Earl for his candour, but must say that, while certain parts of our Prayer Book were no doubt taken from the Church of Rome, as, for example, the Te Deum—than which nothing could be more magnificent—yet nothing had been borrowed from that source which the Church of England expressly declared to be incompatible with her own principles.
  House adjourned at a quarter past Nine o'clock, till To-morrow, One o'clock.