Lords Sitting of 19 June 1865

MINUTES.
Took the Oath — The Viscount Gort, a Representative Peer for Ireland.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading —Statute Law Revision * (172) [H.L.]; Salmon Fisheries (Scotland) Acts Amendment* (1V5); Navy and Marines (Property of Deceased) * (176); Naval and Marine Pay and Pensions * (177); Penalties Law Amendment * (178).
Second Reading —Prisons (Scotland) Act Amendment* (106); Trespass (Scotland)* (146); Ecclesiastical Leasing Act (185S) Amendment* (125); Pier and Harbour Orders Confirmation* (157); Lunatic Asylum Act (1853) &c, Amendment* (160); Pilotage Order Confirmation (No. 2) * (151); Smoke Nuisances (Scotland) Acts Amendment * (136); Procurators (Scotland) * (153); Churches and Chapels Exemption (Scotland)* (128); Colonial Laws Validity * (158); Colonial Marriages Validity* (159); Defence Act (1860) Amendment* (152).
Select Committee — Report — Mortgage Debentures * (173); Land Debentures* (112); Land Debentures (Ireland)* (113).
Report —Mortgage Debentures * (174); Union Chargeability*(171).
Third Reading — Dockyard Extensions * (143); Drainage and Improvement of Lands Acts (Ireland) Amendment * (117); Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Provisional Order Confirmation (No. 2) * (147) and passed.
Withdrawn —Railway Passengers (149).
Royal Assent — Commissioners of Supply Meetings (Scotland) [28 Vict. c. 38]; District Church Tithes [28 Vict. c. 42]; Inclosure (No. 2) [28 Vict. c. 39]; Lancaster Court of Chancery [28 Vict. c. 401; Married Women's Property (Ireland) [28 Vict. c. 43]; Pilotage Order Confirmation [28 Vict. c. 59]; Common Law Courts (Fees) [28 Vict. c. 45]; Local Government Supplemental (No. 3) [28 Vict. c. 41]; Dogs Regulation (Ireland) [28 Vict. c. 50]; Courts of Justice Concentration (Site) [28 Vict. c. 49]; Courts of Justice Building [28 Vict. c. 48]; Militia Ballots Suspension [28 Vict. c. 46]; Militia Pay [28 Vict. c. 47].

STATUTE LAW REVISION BILL.

  PRESENTED. FIRST READING.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR presented a Bill for promoting the Revision of the Statute Law and expurgation of the Statute Book. The statutes of the realm were at present contained in forty-four quarto volumes. The Bills presented by him on former occasions, and which had passed into law, carried the revision and expurgation down to the reign of James II. inclusive, and the Bill which he had now the honour to introduce completed the entire work of revision. He was happy to say that if this Bill passed into a law the new edition of the whole of the living statutes which would follow would probably be comprised in ten volumes only, of the same average size as at present. This, however, was by no means the end of the work. The next step would be to arrange the Statute Law in the form of a digest, under the most appropriate heads, forming a complete analytical arrangement, and then to revise and expurgate the unwieldly and still increasing mass of the decided cases, reducing them to such as constituted the body of existing authorities, and which might in their turn be digested and arranged. Their Lordships would be glad to hear that the House of Commons had voted a sum of money for this purpose, and he trusted that the work would go on successfully until the whole of the written and unwritten law was ascertained, reduced into order, and brought within a reasonable compass.
  Bill for promoting the Revision of the Statute Law by repealing certain Enactments which have ceased to be in force or have become unnecessary—Was presented by The LORD CHANCELLOR; read 1a. (No. 172.)

HER ROYAL HIGHNESS THE PRINCESS OF WALES.

  HER MAJESTY'S ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS.
  THE LORD CHAMBERLAIN (Viscount SYDNEY)reported the QUEEN'S Answer to the Address of Tuesday last as follows:—
  "Your loyal and dutiful Address upon the birth of the Prince, my Grandson, afforded me much satisfaction; and I thank you for the affectionate interest which you have expressed in the domestic happiness of myself and my family."

THE SLAVE TRADE—OBSERVATIONS.
LORD BROUGHAM,in asking his noble Friend the Foreign Secretary for the production of the Slave Trade Papers, stated, that since he last addressed the House on this subject he had received information of very important proceedings at Madrid. A Society for Slave Emancipation had been formed, consisting of persons important in the community, and some of them formerly in office. The Court had not opposed, though it had not aided this proceeding. The press also had taken a salutary direction, for though the Cuba planters had set up a paper on the side of slavery, The Isla de Cuba, a journal in opposition had been established with success, and he heard that feelings of reprobation of the course taken by the Government were spreading.
EARL RUSSELLsaid, that the Slave Trade Papers were very voluminous, and would take ten days or a fortnight longer to prepare them. They would, however, be laid upon the table of both Houses as soon as possible. He thought it right to state that there was a greater disposition than he ever remembered, not only in Spain, but in other countries, to concur in measures for the effectual suppression of the slave trade. There had been a very great change in this respect in Cuba within the last five years, as well as in the United States. The fitting out of slave vessels at New York had been entirely put a stop to, and those who had been found guilty of participating in slave trade ventures were punished with the utmost severity by the Government of the United States. They were willing to co-operate with us in measures with a view to extinguish the trade, and there was now a reasonable hope that the trade would be effectually abolished.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, that the conduct of the United States Government had been perfect upon the subject of slavery, and he was astonished at the utterly groundless reports which injudicious friends of the Northern party had propagated of him, as if he had taken the part of the slave traders and slave mongers in the South. Nothing could be more utterly false than such a story, and he took this opportunity of giving it a peremptory contradiction.

IRISH POOR LAW UNIONS—PETITION.
THE EARL OF GRANARD,on presenting a petition from the Board of Guardians of Longford, praying for a re-adjustment of
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the boundaries of the Longford Union, said, the petitioners complained that the area of the Union for rating purposes was insufficient, and called the attention of the House to the necessity for a revision of the boundaries of unions in Ireland. He hoped that between this and the next Session the question of a revision of the boundaries of the Irish unions would engage the attention of the Government.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that there were other unions in Ireland smaller than the Longford Union. It was the opinion of the Irish Poor Law Commissioners that it would not be desirable in general to revise the unions in Ireland, and the Portumna Union was the only other union which joined in the case made by that of Longford. Under these circumstances he could hold out no hope that the Government would propose the revision advocated by his noble Friend.
THE EARL OF CLANCARTYexpressed his opinion that, as the circumstances of Ireland had very much changed since the unions were divided, some alteration was necessary. The numbers in the Irish unions were diminishing, and whatever force the argument in favour of union chargeability might have, as regarded England, it certainly did not apply to Ireland.
Petition to lie on the table.

RAILWAY PASSENGERS BILL—(No. 149.) BILL WITHDRAWN.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
EARL GRANVILLEdesired to ask the noble and learned Lord (Lord St. Leonards) whether it was really his intention to proceed with the Bill. The whole subject was now under the consideration of the Government, and this Bill would deal with only a very small portion of it. The Government were fully alive to the importance of the subject. On occasion of a serious accident that had recently happened on one of the French Railways, owing to one of the carriages having caught fire, and the passengers were unable to escape owing to the doors being locked, the Board of Trade wrote to all the railway companies suggesting that on no occasion should both doors be locked, and the answer was unanimously in favour of adopting the regulation. No doubt the subject was one which deserved the most serious consideration from the Government and from Parliament, and the Government were anxiously

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alive to the importance of adopting any measures which might be useful for the prevention of accidents, but the more attention was given to the subject, the greater became the difficulties in their way. The more responsibility was assumed by the Government, to a certain extent, the greater would be the amount of responsibility from which the directors would be relieved. As to the argument of self interest, Lord Campbell's Act no doubt had had a most powerful effect. The Board of Trade sent down an Inspector to report on every accident which happened, and recommendations arising from the report were sent down to every railway company. In almost every instance they were followed, but if the railway companies did not follow them, and an accident happened, their Lordships would easily understand how seriously that would affect the verdict of a jury. If the noble and learned Lord pressed his Bill, he should divide against it, as he thought it was not desirable to deal by Act of Parliament with only one portion of the subject.
THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEdiffered from the noble Earl, who seemed to think that the directors of railway companies would take sufficient precautions for the safety of passengers, because the survivors of people killed obtained good compensation for the loss they had sustained. That, however, was not the way in which the safety of the public should be secured. He (the Marquess of Clanricarde) was of opinion that the subject ought to be dealt with, though he agreed it should not be done piecemeal, but as a whole. It was very well to say that railway companies had to pay for these accidents; but what the public wanted was to be protected against risks to which travellers on railways were exposed every day. Only that very morning he and some noble Lords then present came to London in a train which, on arriving at the Clapham Junction, was twenty-four minutes behind its time, and be was informed that as many as 400 trains, and by another person, as many as 700, passed through that station every day. These delays continually occurred, but they passed unnoticed, and those who were exposed to risk by them had no redress. Under the old coaching system the guard was compelled to register the time when he arrived at each stopping-place, and in every case of delay some penalty was incurred. A somewhat similar regulation was adopted on railways in re-
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gard to times of arriving at stations, but as there was no penalty for irregularity it produced no effect. He thought there ought to be some Government Department whose duty it should be to call railway companies to account, not only when persons were killed, but when they were exposed to danger by delays or any other causes. He trusted that the subject would be considered by the Government during the recess, and that one of the first Bills introduced next Session would be for the formation of a Government Department for that purpose.
LORD TAUNTONdoubted whether it were wise for a piece of small legislation like this to interfere with the direction and responsibility of railway directors. The only approach to a railway accident he had ever personally seen was on an Austrian railway, where the directors were compelled to send in their time-bills to a Government Department, and were fined for every five minutes that a train was late. He believed that it would be best to leave the matter in the hands of the railway companies, although he did not deny that there might be an advantage in some general supervision on the part of the Government. The subject was well deserving the attention of the Government, and if they could devise any plan of supervision which would not detract from the responsibility of the railway companies, he should be glad to see it adopted. He hoped, however, the noble and learned Lord would not press this Bill further at present.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that he had not intended to convey the idea that the Government were indisposed to consider the subject. He had merely stated the general grounds on which it was very difficult for the Government to undertake any superintendence of railways, and he had assumed as a general principle that, in assuming a superintendence they would be diminishing the responsibility of the railway directors. The Government, so far from wishing to avoid this question, were very carefully considering it, and if any of the reports which were made to them should contain any useful or practicable suggestions they would be glad to avail themselves of them.
LORD ST. LEONARDSsaid, if he could receive an assurrance from the Government that they would take this subject into their consideration with a view to the adoption of some practical remedy he would not persevere with this Bill. He did not think there would be any danger in

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allowing both doors of railway carriages to be unlocked. On one line he knew that one of the doors was allowed to remain unlocked.
THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGHsaid, he trusted the Government would give some assurance that they would take up the subject with a view to the adoption of some measure which should prevent, as far as possible, the recurrence of such frightful railway accidents as had lately occurred. He believed that a very general opinion prevailed that the subject had not been dealt with by the Government in the spirit they ought to have manifested. The reply given by the President of the Board of Trade to a statement made in the other House appeared to have been most unsatisfactory. There was no doubt that the question was one of considerable difficulty, but the public looked to the Government as a quarter from which any remedial measure must emanate. He could quite understand that it would not be advisable to relieve railway companies from the responsibility which at present attached to them, and that any excessive interference on the part of the Government might be attended with that effect. But there appeared to be a great inconsistency in the present practice. Before a line was opened it was inspected by a Government officer with a view to ascertain its fitness for traffic; when once it had been opened the Government took no further steps to secure the safety of the travellers by it. It was not consistent, to say the least of it, that the Board of Trade should have powers over a railway until the opening of a line; but that from the moment it was opened all power of practical control should pass out of their hands. It would be advisable that more responsibility in case of accident should fall upon the directors of railway companies, especially as those frightful accidents which so frequently occurred were generally attributable to the absence of the most ordinary precautions. Oftentimes they were due to the fact that trains were allowed to follow one another too soon, and the proper time was not kept; but they were also owing in many instances to the fact that the repair of the lines was committed to contractors, who, as long as they were paid for their work, cared but little for the security of passengers and trains. He trusted that the Government would give their Lordships an assurance that some practical measure would be introduced for the purpose of
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affording better security to the public than at present existed. It might be well to remind their Lordships that though the present Government had been in office for five years the subject had not received the attention at their hands to which it was entitled.
After a few words from Lord WHARN-CLIFFE,
THE DUKE OF MONTROSEsaid, that though it would be desirable to confer some additional powers upon the Board of Trade, he thought there was no necessity for such a Bill as that under the consideration of their Lordships. He had never seen the doors of railways shut except for the purpose of preventing the entrance of any more passengers. It would, in his opinion, be most dangerous to require companies to be punctual by making up for lost time by an acceleration of speed; for, on the other hand, it was impossible that time should not sometimes be lost if the unusual quantity of luggage and the unusual number of passengers, which had occasionally to be taken in or discharged at particular parts, were not excluded. There was no doubt that the railway companies themselves had a great interest in the good management of their respective lines; but, at the same time, he believed that some additional general controlling power might, with advantage, be vested in the Board of Trade.
THE MARQUESS OF WESTMEATHthought it was the bounden duty of the Government to take this matter in hand, and to introduce some measure which would more effectually secure the safety of the public.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the Government had been considering the matter, and they would continue to give to it their best consideration, more particularly after the reports which they expected to receive on the subject of the recent accidents. But at present they were not aware of any measure they could adopt that would not produce greater evils than those which it was to obviate; and, under these circumstances, it was clearly impossible for him to give any pledge as to the course they might hereafter pursue.
LORD ST. LEONARDSintimated that, after the discussion which had taken place, he would not persevere with the Bill.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading discharged; and Bill (by Leave of the House) withdrawn.

SINGAPORE AND THE STRAITS SETTLEMENTS—QUESTION.
THE EARL OF ALBEMARLEasked the President of the Council, What progress has been made in the Transfer of Singapore and the other Settlements in the Straits of Malacca from the Indian to the Colonial Department? The population of these Settlements were entitled, he thought, to the favourable consideration of the Parliament and Government. At the time the English flag was hoisted in these Settlements the population was chiefly composed of piratical Malay fishermen. Now, however, there was a peaceable, industrious, and thriving community of a quarter of a million, with a trade which might be estimated at £15,000,000 yearly. The greatest portion of that commerce was transacted with this country, and the capital embarked in it belonged to merchants of London, Liverpool, Manchester, and Glasgow. Singapore, the principal settlement, was 1,500 miles from Calcutta. It was true that these Settlements possessed a Governor; but he had no legislative power, that power being lodged in the hands of the Governor General of India, who was necessarily unacquainted with their wants and interests. Not only were these Settlements situated at so great a distance from the seat of Government, but the population was chiefly composed of Malays and Chinese. They now naturally desired to come more directly under the authority of the Crown. They wished to have the same kind of constitution that had been granted to Hong Kong and Ceylon. For five long years they had been petitioning Parliament for this boon, but hitherto without success. In the beginning of this Session there was a slight gleam of hope that before its termination they might be transferred—the Secretary of State for India, after having demurred, gave way, and said he was ready to get rid of them; the Colonial Office said they were perfectly ready to receive them; but the Treasury naturally asked if they could pay their way. They gave a most satisfactory account of themselves, saying they raised an annual revenue of £250,000, which was amply sufficient for all municipal purposes, and for the military expenditure. The Treasury were satisfied, and sent them to the War Department. But here a little difficulty occurred. Some "circumlocution" took place. The present garrison consisted of two batteries of artillery and two companies of Madras Native
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Infantry. The Straits Settlements, or those acting for them, proposed that there should be three batteries of artillery, and one Native corps for police purposes, and to do duties of fatigue unfitted for the European constitution, with a due proportion of European officers and non-commissioned officers. The noble Earl the Secretary for War gave the agents for the Straits Settlements reason to believe that the War Office accepted their proposals; but some time after, as he understood, the Horse Guards insisted it was indispensable that artillery should always have the protection of infantry, and therefore the proposal of the War Office was that there should be two batteries of artillery and a wing of an European regiment. The annual expense of all these combined, it was calculated, would be £48,000 a year. The Straits Settlements proposed to throw in £2,000 more, so as to make the amount £50,000 a year, leaving the War Office to make what arrangements they pleased. Considerable delay had since taken place, and the Straits Settlements were anxious to know the cause of it. He hoped their just expectations would not be disappointed, and that his noble Friend the noble Earl would be enabled to give a satisfactory answer to the question he had put to him.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that a week ago he might have been enabled to give his noble Friend a more satisfactory answer than he could now do. At that time it was thought another hour would have settled the whole question; but there was some difficulty as to the practical details which it would require the authority of Parliament to remove; and, although the Government were very anxious to do so, he could not give his noble Friend any assurance that it could be done this Session.
House adjourned at a quarter before Seven o'clock, till To-morrow a quarter before Five o'clock.