Lords Sitting of 7 April 1865

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Committee—East India (Governor General's Powers, &c.) (57).
Report—East India (Governor General's Powers, &c.) (57).
Royal Assent—Consolidated Fund (£15,000,000); Perth Provisional Order Confirmation; Affirmations (Scotland); Election Petitions Act (1848) Amendment; Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Provisional Orders Confirmation; Marine Mutiny; Mutiny; Bank of Ireland; Colonial Naval Defence; East India High Courts.

THE CURRAGH OF KILDARE.

  QUESTION.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, it was commonly reported in Ireland that the Department of Woods and Forests were about to transfer the whole care and management of the Curragh to the War Office, and there was a very strong feeling upon the subject, for the Irish public seemed to think that if such a transfer were made, that great plain would be greatly damaged. It was certainly announced at the time the military went there that the occupation would not be made permanent; but however that might be, it would be a very serious thing if the whole of the Curragh was handed over to the military authorities and the office of the Ranger abolished. Whether the Crown had a right to dispose of it in that way might be a legal question, but at all events there were considerable interests involved. There had been proprietary common rights in existence for a long period, and at one time as many as 30,000 sheep grazed there, though at present there were scarcely 12,000, if so many. That was no light matter to the farmers of the neighbourhood. He wished then to ask, Whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to transfer by lease or otherwise, the Care and Management of the Curragh of Kildare from the office of Woods and Forests to the War Department, and to abolish the Office of Ranger of the Curragh?
  EARL DE GREY AND RIPONsaid, that the War Department occupied the Curragh only on the licence of the Woods and Forests; but as considerable difficulties had arisen from that state of things, the Woods and Forests had for some time been anxious to hand over the Curragh, on lease, to the War Office. Of course the Woods and Forests could hand over only
  870
  that to which they had a legel right. With respect to the position of the Ranger, nothing would be done during the life of the present holder of the office; but upon his death, or on his ceasing to hold the office, it would become a matter of consideration with the Government what should be done. If his noble Friend or any others had any suggestions to offer they would be sure to receive every attention.

EAST INDIA (GOVERNOR GENERAL'S POWERS, &c.) BILL,—(No. 57.)

  COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into a Committee on the said Bill read.
  LORD LYVEDENwished to ask, Whether the noble Lord the Under Secretary of State for India could furnish the House with any information as to the actual state of our relations with Bhootan? Their Lordships would remember that the Queen's Speech at the opening of the Session contained a paragraph with reference to this subject, in which it was stated that a force had been despatched which, it was hoped, would procure reparation for the past and security for the future. But the force had done neither, for it appeared that they bad turned back in consequence of a flight of arrows or some such proceeding on the part of the Natives. The whole affair was simply this:—We sent an ambassador to a savage tribe by whom he was ill-treated, as might have been expected; and the consequence was the war which was now being waged. An opinion was pretty generally entertained that the territory of Bhootan was to be annexed. We had made many annexations which had been profitable, and for those the robber's plea might be admitted; but he could conceive nothing more worthless than the annexation of Bhootan. Now there were three questions which he wished to ask in connection with this subject—namely, whether there was any intention to annex the whole of Bhootan or a part of it; if so, what number of troops had been sent for that purpose; and what provision had been made to secure the troops against the severity of the climate?
  LORD DUFFERINdeprecated, on the part of Her Majesty's Government, any discussion about the war in Bhootan until their Lordships had had an opportunity of examining the papers on the subject, of which a part had been laid upon the table, and the remainder was in preparation. As their

  871
  Lordships were aware, for a long series of years the people of Bhootan had been in the habit of carrying their depredations over the frontiers of Her Majesty's dominions. Before the outbreak of the Indian mutiny the Government of India had it in contemplation to insist on some reparation; but in consequence of that event the intention of doing so was postponed. As the inhabitants of Bhootan, however, continued to carry off, not only the goods of British subjects, but also British subjects themselves in great numbers, it became obvious that some decisive measures must be taken. It was thought advisable to send an Envoy, in the first instance, for the purpose of making representations to the Government of Bhootan. That Envoy, as was well known to their Lordships, had been subjected to gross ill-treatment; but that circumstance only rendered it the more necessary that some decisive course should be followed. Accordingly, it was determined to organize a military force for this special purpose, and to despatch it into Bhootan. Bhootan consisted of a long, narrow territory, principally of a mountainous character, but it was bordered by a flat strip or riband of very fertile soil; and it was considered that by pushing our frontier a little further north—some fifteen or twenty miles—and getting possession of this strip, we should be able to put an effectual check upon the depredations of the people of Bhootan. Accordingly, four columns marched towards the hills, which they occupied without any opposition worthy of mention, and four forts were taken possession of by our troops. Three of those positions were still in our hands, and there was no doubt, from the information we had received, that they would be held with success. The fourth of these positions we had been compelled to give up, but the reason of that was the difficulty which was experienced in procuring water. There was no doubt, however, that in a short time we should be able to occupy the whole of the territory we considered necessary for our purpose. With regard to the question as to the permanent occupation of Bhootan, he could assure the noble Lord that no intention of the kind had ever for a moment been entertained by Her Majesty's Government. Any noble Lord who should read the papers would be of opinion that the course adopted by the Government of India was one which their Lordships ought to approve. The force to be sent forward would consist of a regiment and a half of
  872
  European troops, two batteries of artillery, and three regiments of Native levies.
  LORD LYVEDENinquired, whether it was by the orders of Sir John Lawrence that the expedition had been undertaken?
  LORD DUFFERINsaid it was.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH: My Lords, when this expedition was sent forth it should have been considered that the country which it was about to enter was exceedingly unhealthy, and every possible precaution should have been taken to secure the health of the troops. I think the time at which it must have moved was unfortunate. It could not have moved before the 25th of March, when the season required that troops should go into cantonments. My Lords, I confess I have read the accounts of this expedition with very great alarm—an alarm proceeding not only from the apparent want of discretion in the arrangements made for the purpose of carrying on the campaign, but also from the evident weakness and incapacity of the new regiments formed and officered as they now are for the conduct of the operations. The same error was committed last year that was committed the year before. A force was sent into an enemy's country without any reserve being at hand to support it in the event of disaster. A force of 5,000 men was sent against the enemy at the end of 1863. They advanced three miles into the enemy's country; but they had not been there twenty-four hours before they sent for 5,000 more to protect their communications; and these 5,000 could not arrive until after the lapse of six weeks, That is not the way in which we can carry on war with the chance of success. The same' want of foresight occurred in the present instance. Three or four weeks elapsed before the European and Native troops ordered up as re-inforcements could move. That is not the way in which we can carry on war with advantage. The noble Lord says it was not quite so bad as that, and that they were obliged to retreat for want of water. But did any man ever hear of such an occurrence as was stated to have happened in this instance? It is incredible. I do not understand how any man who ever wore a red coat could carry on a war without making due provision for supplying his men with water. It was impossible that these troops, without water, should hold their position against an enemy. I tell your Lordships that at a very early period you will be compelled to give your

  873
  most earnest consideration to the whole question of the expediency of maintaining that new organization of the Indian army which was established four or five years ago. It is the first time since the introduction of standing armies that an attempt has been made to maintain an army without regimental organization. These regiments are officered from time to time by gentlemen from the Staff. I have looked through the list of officers of one of those regiments—the 43rd. I find that the commanding officer has been for a long time at the head of that regiment. In its former condition it might be considered rather as a body of police than as a regiment, and I regret extremely that there has been given to it the name of one of the noblest regiments of the Indian army. They are nothing but a parcel of police. Looking at the list of the other officers, I find it most unsatisfactory. One of the officers who joined in November went into the field with the troops in December. Others joined only at the beginning of the year. It is impossible to expect discipline and efficiency in the field if you send new officers to join a regiment just as it is going into the presence of the enemy. You cannot do that safely with your own European troops; how then can it be done with Native troops, who look to European officers to take them into action? I trust that no long time will elapse before the attention of your Lordships will be called to this subject. It is one that has occupied my mind seriously for a very considerable period. There are no means of filling up the ranks of that Staff—none whatever—when the old officers of the East India Company's army are gone. The Queen's army does not offer recruits to that service. You are within a few years of having no officers whatever to command the Native troops of India. It is absolutely impossible to carry on the present organization, and it is time for the Government, without regarding the discredit of so doing, seriously to consider, if not the expediency of going back to what was, at all events to make a material alteration in what is, and to establish a real regimental organization of the Indian army.
  House in Committee.
  Bill reported, without Amendment.

PRIVATE BILLS.
  STANDING ORDER No. 191.

    DISPLACEMENT OF LONDON POOR.
    THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he
    874
    had been requested by his noble Friend the Earl of Shaftesbury, who was unavoidably absent, to submit to your Lordships the Motion of which the noble Earl bad given notice for the Amendment of Standing Order No. 191. The Amendment of his noble Friend had for its object to impose upon railway and other companies the obligation of submitting their Bills with a very accurate statement of the number of houses which the Bill proposed to take, and which were inhabited by the labouring classes; the number of persons who would be driven from their houses; and whether any provision was made in the Bill for affording those persons the accommodation of other dwellings. The matter was brought before their Lordships a few evenings ago, and it was then allowed to stand over in order that certain difficulties which were suggested should be duly considered. He had endeavoured to insert words, with the approval of the noble Earl, which would, he thought, meet the difficulty. He proposed to make it requisite to include in the Returns, not only the number of tenants in the houses, but of those also who lodged therein, and who might only be temporary residents. He proposed, therefore, to strike out the words "inhabited by the labouring classes," and insert the words "occupied either altogether or partially as tenants or lodgers by persons belonging to the labouring classes." That would insure the Return of the actual dwellers of the houses in whatever capacity, and whether they resided as tenants or lodgers.
    THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, he understood that the noble Earl (the Earl of Shaftesbury) bad proposed to go further than obtaining a mere Return; he wished that the occupants of these houses should have notice of the intention to take the houses. He required that all the persons proposed to be displaced, whether tenants or lodgers, should have notice served upon them separately and individually before they were displaced. At present it was only necessary that notice should be served on the actual tenant.
    THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, it was found that there would be a difficulty about personal notice upon each occupier—it would often be found impossible. The latter part of the amended Standing Order of his noble Friend contained a stringent provision requiring that the companies should, by notices placed in public view, e upon or within a reasonable distance of the

    875
    houses proposed to be taken, make known their intention of taking them; and that they should not actually take them until they had obtained a certificate of a justice that this provision of the Standing Order had been satisfactorily complied with.
    THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsuggested that the words requiring personal notice to heads of families should be omitted from the Standing Order, and that the notice by placards, handbills, or other public notice should be alone insisted on.
    LORD REDESDALEsaid, that when the subject was under the consideration of the House a few days ago. he had suggested that, after the words "fifteen houses" in the proposed Order, the words "in any parish or place" should be inserted. He was now, however, of opinion that it would be better to substitute for those words the words "in any city, town, or place." By that means a fuller Return might be secured, while there would be no objection to the increase of the number of houses with respect to which the Return was to be made from fifteen to twenty.
    LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYthought the words "in any city, town, or place" somewhat too vague. He suggested the substitution of the word "parish" for "place," and the expediency of fixing the number of houses named in the Order at thirty.
    LORD CHELMSFORDalso objected to the word "place" as being indefinite, observing that, in a case which had been tried under the Gaming Act a short time ago, the foot of a tree in Hyde Park where certain persons had assembled for the purposes of betting had been held to be a "place."
    THE BISHOP OF LONDONsaid, he was anxious, on the part of the clergy, to express the great interest which they felt in the question under discussion, and their desire that the conditions of the proposed Order should be made as stringent as possible. The devastation occasioned by the public improvements undertaken in the metropolis was more extensive than their Lordships were probably aware. He was informed by a clergyman that in one parish in the City of London, in which one-third of the houses had been swept away, there was still no perceptible diminution in the number of the poor inhabiting the parish; while in another parish, in which the proportion of houses destroyed was even greater, the rates continued to be as high as before—thus
    876
    showing that the number of poor who inhabited the remaining houses was as large as ever. How that state of things came to pass it was difficult to say with any degree of accuracy j but, speaking on behalf of the clergy, he was extremely desirous that the subject should not be allowed to rest even at the point to which their Lordships were now bringing it, inasmuch as they were convinced that if the humbler classes were, by overcrowding their dwellings, reduced to that condition which had been so graphically described by the noble Earl who brought the question forward on a former evening, any efforts to provide for their spiritual wants or their education must be altogether unavailing. It seemed very difficult to find a remedy for the case. Much good, it had been said, could not be expected to be done by improved lodging houses; although much, it was true, had been done by private individuals in the way of improving the dwellings of the poor, yet when all that had been effected in that direction at a great sacrifice was compared with the misery which was to be contended with, it would be at once seen that no adequate remedy had as yet been provided. In the immediate neighbourhood of their Lordships' House a wealthy merchant, greatly to his honour, had spent a large sum of money in the erection of model lodging-houses capable of accommodating some 800 persons; but then the number of poor removed at one stroke, owing to a slight improvement which took place after those houses were erected, was double that which he found himself able to accommodate. In another part of London a lady well known for her benevolence in carrying out works of that description had expended a large amount in improving the dwellings of the poor; yet those dwellings bore no proportion to the number of poor who were removed. Among the Returns which had been placed in his hands was one stating that the corporation of the City of London had taken up the subject, and had erected certain houses for the poor. Their example, he trusted, would be followed by other corporations. There were other bodies which had large funds that might be made available for the purpose. For example, the vestries of parishes in the City of Loudon were, in some cases, so rich that they literally did not know what to do with their money; and as that money had been placed at their disposal for the benefit

    877
    of the poor they could not better expend the money than in erecting such model lodging-houses as those to which he had alluded. He desired to say another word on the subject. It was not only the spiritual interests of the poor of the metropolis for which the clergy were anxious; they were also alive to the necessity of taking care that considerations of health should not be neglected—especially at a moment when, if what was stated in the public journals were true, a mysterious disease which had passed from village to village had inflicted itself on a great capital, its ravages being aggravated, it would seem, by the circumstance that 40,000 had been added to the population, and a large number of houses therefore overcrowded. It was surely most desirable that before such a scourge visited this country—if, unfortunately, it should visit us—we should not have a vast army of poor displaced from their habitations and compelled to overcrowd the wretched abodes to which they were driven for shelter.
    THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that in the absence of the noble Earl on whose behalf he had risen to move the present Order, he could not agree to the proposal for increasing the number of houses mentioned beyond fifteen. He had no objection, however, to the insertion of the words, "in any city, town, or parish," which would, ho thought, render the returns to be made more definite. He was also prepared to assent to the suggestion that the words "either by personal notice to heads of families inhabiting the same at the time of giving such notice" should be struck out, and that the words should be retained rendering it obligatory on Companies to give notice by placards and handbills publicly exhibited in the vicinity of the houses about to be pulled down, with the further provision having reference to the certificate of a magistrate being necessary to show that the Order had been complied with.
    Motion agreed to: Standing Order No. 191 amended as follows:—
    "That in the Case of any Bill for making any Work, for the construction of which compulsory Power is sought to take in any City, Town, or Parish Fifteen Houses or more occupied either wholly or partially as Tenants or Lodgers by Persons belonging to the Labouring Classes, the Promoters be required to deposit in the Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments on or before the 31st Day of December a Statement of the Number, Description, and Situation of the said Houses, the Number (so far as they can be ascertained) of
    878
    Persons to be displaced, and whether any and what Provision is made in the Bill for remedying the Inconvenience likely to arise from such Displacement, and that such Statement be referred to the Committee on the Bill, and that the said Committee do inquire into and report thereon; and that in every such Bill a Clause be inserted to enact that the Company shall, not less than Eight Weeks before taking any such Houses, make known their Intention to take the same by Placards, Handbills, or other general Notice placed in public View upon or within a reasonable Distance from such Houses, and that the Company shall not take any such Houses until they have obtained the Certificate of a Justice that it has been proved to his Satisfaction that the Company have made known their Intention to take the same in manner required by this Provision."

  THE REVISED CODE. EXAMINATION OF CHILDREN.

    OBSERVATIONS.
    THE EARL OF HARROWBYsaid, he desired to draw the attention of the noble Earl the Lord President to a recent Order of the Education Committee by which children under six years of age were required to attend their respective schools on the day of inspection in order to entitle themselves to claim a portion of the public grant. He had on a previous occasion deemed it to be his duty to state his opinion as to the impolicy and harshness of that Order, according as it was brought into operation in summer or in winter, and his noble Friend the President of the Council had informed him that instructions had been issued with the view of meeting certain cases. Now he thought it was extremely desirable that a public statement should be made by his noble Friend as to the precise course which the Government were about to pursue in the matter, in order that all persons might know how things really stood. This was retrospective action on the part of the Privy Council, and he hoped that his noble Friend's sense of justice would prevent his supporting such an act of injustice. No notice whatever was given to the schools that the Inspector would require the attendance of these young scholars; and therefore he should like to know what were the exact instructions under which the Inspectors were now acting.
    EARL GRANVILLEwas understood to say that the rules now acted upon had substantially been in force ever since the Revised Code came into operation. It was necessary that these children should be present in order that the Inspector might ascertain what was the general system of the school.
    THE EARL OF HARROWBYobserved, that for that purpose it was not necessary that all the children should be present.
    EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that if the presence of all the children was not required, picked examples might be presented to the Inspector, so as to deceive him as to the real condition of the school.
    LORD REDESDALEthought that to require "extraordinary circumstances" to be given for the absence of such young children was a little too stringent. He would suggest that the report of the Inspector should be of "the circumstances" instead of "the extraordinary circumstances" which might have prevented the attendance of the children. Snow upon the ground might be a good reason why these young children should not go to school but in winter time that could hardly be considered an "extraordinary" circumstance.
    EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that if a wet day was to be a sufficient excuse for the non-attendance of children they would hardly ever go to school.
    THE EARL OF HARROWBYsaid, that at all events the allowance to the schools for last year ought not without notice to have been made to depend upon the attendance of these young children.
    LORD REDESDALEthought it was unreasonable to require children of a tender age to attend school in case of bad weather, and thus to compel them to sit all day in wet clothes. He approved on the whole what the Government had done up to the present time with regard to the educational question; but he trusted they would in future exercise generosity towards these little children.

  THE EPIDEMIC AT ST. PETERSBURG.

    QUESTION.
    THE BISHOP OF OXFORD: My Lords, before the House rises for the recess, I should wish to ask the noble Earl the Lord President, Whether he can give the House any further information than it already possesses on the subject of the epidemic at St. Petersburg mentioned by my right rev. Brother (the Bishop of London)? The noble Earl has no doubt noticed in one of the leading papers of to-day a telegram from St. Petersburg purporting to give details of the symptoms of that epidemic which tend to identify it with the disease commonly known as the plague. As Parliament is about to rise
    880
    for the recess, and as the northern ports will shortly be open, no doubt great anxiety will arise with regard to this epidemic, which would be considerably allayed by an intimation from the noble Earl that Her Majesty's Government are quite alive to the importance of the subject, and are instituting inquiries into the extent and nature of the disease.
    EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, it is quite true that a telegram has been received to-day from Berlin which gives a worse account of the epidemic than we had previously received from St. Petersburg. A medical officer of great experience has been sent to St. Petersburg, and another gentleman of equal professional attainments has since been sent to the valley of the Vistula to ascertain the real character of the disease. I am not aware that we can take any further steps in the matter.
    House adjourned at a quarter past Six o'clock, to Thursday, the 27th Instant, a quarter before Five o'clock.