Lords Sitting of 12 May 1864

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS— First Reading—Court of Justiciary (Scotland)* (No. 82); Naval Agency and Distribution* (No. 83).
Second Reading— Local Government Supplemental* (No. 71); Under Secretaries Indemnity* (No. 77).
Committee — Registration of County Voters (Ireland)* (No. 50); Common Law Procedure (Ireland) Act (1853) Amendment* (No. 51).
Report — Registration of County Voters (Ire land)* (No. 50).
Third Reading—Promissory Notes and Bills of Exchange (Ireland)* (No. 68); Customs and Inland Revenue* (No. 69), and passed.

UNITED STATES—KIDNAPPING FOREIGN SUBJECTS FOR MILITARY SERVICE.—OBSERVATION.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH: My Lords: I wish to draw the attention of the noble Earl the Secretary for Foreign Affairs to the statements contained in a letter of General Wistar, an officer of the United States army, with reference to the kidnapping of persons, principally foreigners, mostly seamen, and, therefore, very likely to be British subjects, with the view of forcing them to take service in the armies of the United States. I believe I shall do most justice to the case, and to the gallant officer who has written this letter, by reading the whole of it. The letter certainly does him very great credit. The letter is dated Yorktown, April 15, 1864, and is addressed to Major General John A. Dix, New York city. It is in these words—
"General,—An extended spirit of desertion prevailing among the recruits recently received from the North in some of the regiments of my command has led me to make some inquiries, re-
354
sulting in apparently well-authenticated information, which I beg respectfully to communicate to you in this unofficial manner, deeming it required by humanity, no less than by our common desire to benefit the service. There seems to be little doubt that many—in fact, I think I am justified in saying that most of these unfortunate men were either deceived or kidnapped, or both, in the most scandalous and inhuman manner in New York city, where they were drugged and carried off to New Hampshire and Connecticut, mustered in and uniformed before their consciousness was fully restored. Even their bounty was obtained by the parties who were instrumental in these nefarious transactions, and the poor wretches find themselves, on returning to their senses, mustered soldiers, without any pecuniary benefit. Nearly all are foreigners, mostly sailors, both ignorant of, and indifferent to, the objects of the war in which they thus suddenly find themselves involved. Two men were shot here this morning for desertion, and over thirty more are now awaiting trial or execution. These examples are essential, as we all understand; but it occurred to me, General, that you would pardon me for thus calling your attention to the greater crime committed in New York, of kidnapping these men into positions where, to their ignorance, desertion must seem like a vindication of their own rights and liberty. Believe me to be, General, with the highest esteem, your obedient servant,
J. J. WISTAR."
"To Major General John A. Dix, New York city."
These, my Lords, are the very proper sentiments of this American officer. It is said that many of those who have been kidnapped are seamen and subjects of Her Majesty; it is scarcely possible that those transactions could take place without the knowledge of many of the officers of the American army; it is scarcely possible that the Government itself should not be cognizant of them. I understand that in one case where a Frenchman was detained the French Admiral interfered, the man was released, and the captain in whose regiment he was placed was dismissed the service. Many of your Lordships read a few days ago a statement, which I know to be true from other sources, of the case of a poor man named Edwards, a seaman of one of the Liverpool steamers, and who had only recently been married. He left his clothes on board his vessel, and the money which was due to him, and went on shore by direction of the surgeon to get a warm bath. He was taken to a drinking shop, was drugged, and when he recovered his senses found himself in the uniform of the United States, was told he had enlisted, and carried off to a depot, having no means whatever either of joining his family or informing them of the circumstances of his case. He sent a letter in Welsh, which his wife received in Liverpool, and that led to inquiries

355
being made. This is a very serious grievance. I am not aware if the noble Earl has been, previously made acquainted with the case. If he has, I wish to know what steps he has taken; and if he has now heard of it for the first time what steps he proposes to take, for the purpose of protecting Her Majesty's subjects from these monstrous atrocities, not only for the future, but in order to obtain the release of those who may have been so seriously ill-treated, and to obtain compensation to them for what they have suffered?
EARL RUSSELL, who was very imperfectly heard, was understood to say that he knew nothing of the letter which the noble Earl had read, further than that a copy of it had been sent to him. Without, therefore, giving any answer to the individual cases stated by the noble Earl, he would say that very great hardships were incurred in such cases. It appeared that the bounty given on enlistment by the general Government of the United States and by the States' Government amounted altogether to 600 dols. or 700 dols.; and this large sum, it appeared, induced nefarious and unprincipled men to get hold of persons on landing in the United States, who drugged them, kept them without food, and tempted them to enlist, when they were marched off to some depot and deprived of all means of obtaining their liberty. Whenever such cases came to the knowledge of Lord Lyons, he had made immediate representations to the United States Government. He was not so much surprised at the unprincipled conduct of the parties referred to as that attempts should be made to throw protection around them; and he was sorry to say that Lord Lyons had made repeated complaints, but in most cases he had not obtained that satisfaction which he had a right to expect. The noble Earl then read the following passages from a memorandum of similar cases which had recently occurred, and the result of the representations made by Lord Lyons:—
"Two other cases have been reported to us by the Board of Trade. The first is that of Hugh Bennett, who stated that having gone on shore from his ship, the Edinburgh, at New York, in order to make a purchase, he was induced to enter a public-house, where he, in company with eleven other steamboat men, had been drugged and carried off to the United States receiving ship North Carolina. This case having been referred to Lord Lyons, he baa succeeded in obtaining the man's discharge. The other cage is that of a seaman named Charles Thompson, who wrote from Beaufort, South Carolina, on the 25th of February
356
last, to say he had been drugged, and while in that state was enlisted, not knowing anything until he came to himself, when he was informed that he was a soldier. He further stated that as soon as a sailor arrived in the United States he was nearly certain to be drugged and made a soldier of before he knew anything about it, and that in several cases the British Consul had obtained their release."
Several cases had been brought to the notice of the British agents in the American States, in which several British subjects were kidnapped, as was alleged, while in a state of intoxication. In reply to a representation from Lord Lyons, the United States War Department said they would investigate the case, and in a certain sense they did so, examining the recruiting agents and other persons, who stated that the men were sober when they enlisted. Lord Lyons answered, very properly, that that investigation was not satisfactory, it having been carried on entirely in the absence of the men themselves, four or five of whom had been sent forward to the army. The recruiting agents were tempted by the very large bounty to use every unfair means of inveigling men to enlist. He must say it would throw great discredit on the United States Government if such practices were allowed to go on. It was their bounden duty to see that these persons were not forced to enter the service against their will. He must say that these proceedings would render it necessary that Her Majesty's Government should make the strongest remonstrance to the United States Government. No doubt if the facts referred to by the noble Earl were authentic, they formed a very great hardship, and disclosed conduct on the part of agents of the United States Government which was highly reprehensible.

AGRARIAN OFFENCES (IRELAND)— CASE OF MICHAEL DUIGAN & OTHERS.
THE MARQUESS OF WESTMEATHrose to move an Address to Her Majesty praying for a copy of the Memorial respecting the release of Michael Duigan and others, convicted of agrarian offences at Westmeath in 1862. The noble Marquess said, that these men were convicted of a very serious offence, and sentenced by Chief Justice Monahan to two years' imprisonment. When only two-thirds of their punishment had been undergone they were released by order of the Lord Lieutenant. The grand jury of Westmeath addressed a remonstrance to his Excellency, protesting against the system of pardoning offenders

357
against the public peace without previous consultation with the local magistrates, specially convened for the purpose. An uncourteous reply was returned, to the effect that the Lord Lieutenant conceived he had sufficient grounds for the course he had pursued. The men were released on the 19th of February last. On the 23rd of March a man named Thomas Welsh, living in the same neighbourhood, was attacked and wounded by a pistol shot in the open day by seven miscreants, and so severely beaten that he died two days afterwards. The fact was, that when the law was relaxed an Irish peasant thought he might with perfect impunity knock down or otherwise maltreat any person who had incurred his hatred. Other cases had also occurred in which violent outrages had been allowed to be committed with comparative impunity. The magistrates of the county of West meath felt greatly aggrieved and insulted by the course which the Irish Government had taken. He held that it was most desirable that such matters should no longer be left to the caprice of the authorities in Dublin, but should be referred to the Home Office. The Government were bound, he thought, to disclose the names of those who had deceived them in asking for the remission of punishment in the case he had referred to. He was satisfied that if the Memorial had been sent to the Home Secretary instead of to the Lord Lieutenant it would not have been attended to in the least. The noble Marquess concluded by moving—
"That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for Copy of any Memorial received by the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland or the Irish Government praying for the release of Michael Duigan, Patrick Duigan, and Patrick Egan, Three Prisoners confined in the County Gaol of Westmeath, convicted at the Summer Assizes of 1862 of Agrarian Offences, or any of them; and of any written Communication forwarding the same, and recommending their Enlargement to the Irish Government."
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that in the case referred to everything seemed to have been done in the most regular manner. The condemned persons were sentenced to the maximum punishment allowed by the law. A Memorial was then presented to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, who, as he was informed, took all the customary steps on the occasion, consulting with the usual advisers of the Crown and communicating with the Judge; and the result was that the sentence was remitted. There
358
would be no objection to the production of the Memorial; but it would be inconvenient and injurious to the public service that a communication such as the other document moved for should be produced.
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREsaid, the facts of the case were very simple. The county of Westmeath was the headquarters of Ribbonism, and it was difficult to procure evidence on which to convict the offenders. In this ease, however, convictions were obtained against three persons for an agrarian offence, and the Judge sentenced them to the highest penalty. The Lord Lieutenant, however, without any communication with the magistrates or grand jury of the county, remitted a part of the punishment. The noble Earl opposite (Earl Granville) said that the Lord Lieutenant consulted with his usual advisers; but he forgot to say that these advisers were the Inspector General of Police and other gentlemen who sat on easy stools in the offices of Dublin Castle assisting in the government of disturbed districts. When the grand jury made a humble representation to the Lord Lieutenant, pointing out the grievous effect such a remission would have on public opinion in the county, all they got in answer was an official reply that his Excellency was perfectly satisfied with the grounds on which the remission had been granted. The Judges had found fault with the grand jury for the state of their county; and these gentlemen, who were obliged to submit to those rebukes, and who were made responsible for the proper administration of justice, were not consulted. It was very difficult for them to do their duty under such circumstances, and he thought the grand jury had a right to I demand on what grounds the Lord Lieutenant remitted these penalties. There were rumours afloat of a very awkward description. It was said that the person who brought this case before the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland was one of the Members of Parliament for the county of Westmeath, und that improper political pressure had been resorted to to obtain the release of these men. He hoped the House would support the noble Marquess in calling for the production of the documents.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, if their Lordships thought the Government had done wrong, a Resolution condemning them ought to be brought forward.
THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, he could not assent to the doctrine laid down, by the noble Earl (Earl Granville), that if they thought the Government was to blame they had only to bring forward a Resolution. What their Lordships asked for was the means of knowing whether the Government were to blame or not. It appeared that, without any communication with the local magistrates and those who knew the state of the county, these men were released; and it was asserted, though not by his noble Friend, that political influences were brought to bear, and that communications had been received which should be considered, not of a private, but of a public nature. Consequently the noble Marquess asked that the grounds on which the memorial rested should be made known, and he could not but think that the application was most reasonable. This was not the first by many times that the present Government had systematically passed over the local magistrates, and placed their sole reliance on the information received from the police officers. Under such circumstances the peace of the country could not be effectually maintained. If the peace was to be preserved in any country, and especially in Ireland, the Government must carry along with it the gentry and magistracy, and what was wanted was that their Lordships should be satisfied that the release of these men was founded on reason and justice, and not on any local, private, confidential, or political motive. He hoped that the House would insist on the production of the papers.
LORD VAUX or HARROWDENsaid, that as their Lordships were perfectly in the dark on this matter, information should be produced for their satisfaction; but he thought that the production of the Memorial would be sufficient.
EARL GREYsaid, he could not remember an instance of the production of such documents as those referred to in the Motion, and asked for on the ground—which was, no doubt, unfounded—that an improper communication had been made to the Government, ever being refused. He begged his noble Friend (Earl Granville) would not put the House to the trouble of a division. He should be most reluctant to vote against Her Majesty's Government on a question of this kind, but he really thought that no ground had been shown for refusing to produce the documents.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he should be
360
most unwilling to put the House to the trouble of a division; but certain remarks had fallen from the noble Lord opposite (the Earl of Donoughmore) which were calculated to produce an erroneous impression, and upon which he wished to say a few words. The noble Earl spoke of political influence having been brought to bear—
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREsaid, he had only stated that there was a rumour to that effect.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he was perfectly ignorant that any such influence had been exerted, and he believed there was no foundation whatever for any such rumour. He was not aware that the Home Secretary in this country was in the habit of communicating with the local magistracy in reference to the remission of punishment; and, if that were so, he did not see why the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland should be bound to communicate with the local magistrates in Ireland on a similar occasion. At the same time, he certainly would not object to the production of the Memorial and any letters of a public nature; but he could not consent to produce confidential communications, such as might have taken place between the Irish Government and the Judges.
After a few words from Lord BERNERS and the Marquess of WESTMEATH,
THE EARL OF CLANCARTYsaid, that no communication, although it might be marked "private," could be considered private which covered a Memorial of the kind referred to. He trusted that no such remedy as that suggested by the noble Marquess, namely, the abolition of the Lord Lieutenancy of Ireland, would be hastily adopted. He could not see anything more important to a country situated like Ireland than to have a man of the exalted position of Lord Lieutenant resident there to superintend the administration of the different parts of the Irish Government.
THE EARL OF CHICHESTERsaid, that with regard to the practice in this country, it was usual for the Secretary of State, when he received a Memorial praying for a remission of punishment, to communicate with the Chairman of Quarter Sessions, and to request information as to the evidence from the notes of the Judge.
Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at half past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.