QUESTION. (Hansard, 21 June 1864)

§ LORD BERNERS
in putting the Question to the noble Earl the President of the Council, in reference to the riots that have recently taken place in Mount St. Bernard's Reformatory, said, that the Mount St. Bernard's Monastery was one of the fifty-five which had been instituted in this country since 1829; and emanating from it there arose what was at first called an agricultural college, but which was afterwards licensed by the Secretary of State as a reformatory. Recently some serious disturbances had broken out in this institution, of which his Lordship read some statements from the public journals, and then proceeded to say that for some years the Reformatory had been in a very unsatisfactory state. As far back as 1860 the Inspector of Prisons reported that there were defects in the management of the establishment, arising mainly from the misconduct and inefficiency of several of 19 the "brothers" or officers, but he added that steps had been taken to place these officers on a better footing, and to secure, as far as possible, both a superior class of men and more of them. In 1862 he anticipated an improvement; but in 1863 he said that his anticipations had been frustrated; that the Rev. Canon Ward had received notice to leave at Midsummer; that after him the establishment was placed in the hands of Mr. Martin, the chaplain, who however had been dismissed, and the place was then managed ad interim by Mr. Smith, one of the monks. This person told the boys that if they wanted to smoke—which was against the rules—to do so in private, and where they would not be seen. Accordingly a number of them did smoke in private; and when discovered by a schoolmaster they set upon and assaulted him severely. The Government ought to look to those matters, and see what manner of persons they were intrusting boys to for reformation; more especially as the number of recommittals was greater among Romish than among Protestant boys. The Returns showed that the recommittals of boys discharged from the Protestant Reformatories was 5 per cent, and of those discharged from the Romish Reformatories 8 per cent. The question was whether the Government had any control over this place; and he must say that he believed that they had none except such as was granted by the 17 & 18 Vict., namely, the power of granting licences and of inspection. They had no authority in reference to the appointment or removal of officers however unfit they might be. The main point for consideration was as to what body the reform of criminals should be intrusted; whether it should be intrusted to magistrates, parochial clergy, and gentlemen of such locality, or to Roman Catholic priests, who owed allegiance to another Sovereign than ours. He had that morning received a letter from the chairman of the bench of magistrates at Ashby-de la-Zouch, stating that Mr. Sydney Turner, the Inspector, had not communicated with the magistrates or the police; and that, therefore, his report must be wholly grounded upon the statements of those connected with the Reformatory. The writer added that he hoped the result would be the total breaking up of the establishment, which had a tendency to demoralize the neighbourhood, and render it in such a state that neither property nor person was safe when these 20 young ruffians chose to have an outbreak, the authorities there having not the least power to put it clown without the assistance of the police. In another letter which he had received, it was stated that the force at the Reformatory was a perfect farce when compared with the number of boys; and another writer said he believed that every decent person in the neighbourhood would sign a petition for the removal of the Reformatory. He begged now to ask the noble Earl the question of which he had given notice, Whether the Government had received of late any reports of the discipline and management now in practice at the Romish Reformatory, Mount St. Bernard's, Leicestershire, and of the particulars and causes of the mutiny last week of the 180 inmates, again requiring the assistance of the county police force to maintain order in the institution and to protect the lives and property of the inhabitants of the district; and whether the Government were prepared to withdraw the license from that Reformatory.

§ EARL GRANVILLE
said, he was sorry that the noble Lord had been unable to accede to his suggestion that this discussion should be postponed until the papers were laid on the table. It was quite true that a year ago the state of this Reformatory was very discreditable, and his right hon. Friend Sir George Grey had threatened to withdraw the licence if an improvement did not take place. Since then there had been an entire change in its management, the Reformatory was now separated from the Monastery, and three or four gentlemen of position had undertaken to look after it. A superintendent was appointed whom Mr. Sydney Turner thought eminently fitted for the task, and Mr. Turner, who had visited the institution constantly during the past year, found a great improvement in the management, and expressed his surprise at the change that had taken place to order and tranquillity; but he stated that a great many of the boys at present confined there had been spoiled by the laxity that had prevailed under the previous management, and expressed his apprehension that these boys would at some time make a sudden outbreak. This apprehension seemed unfortunately to have been well-founded; but the rebellion broke out, he believed, without premeditation, and from what Mr. Turner called "an Irish impulse," on receiving the news of similar outbreaks in other reformatories. Mr. Sydney 21 Turner was sent down to examine into the matter, and blamed the authorities for want of decision at the first moment when the rebellion broke out; but their excuse was that they were taken completely by surprise. Afterwards they brought in, at their own expense, a certain number of police, and the outbreak was quelled. All the circumstances were set forth in Mr. Turner's Report, which exonerated the authorities from all blame, with this one exception. Under the circumstances, therefore, the Secretary of State determined not to withdraw the certificate, but to prohibit the admission of any new boys for the present. In a Report which was dated only three days ago, Mr. Turner stated that on visiting the institution he found everything in perfect order, and the boys under control. The Secretary of State therefore felt confirmed in his decision not to withdraw the certificate from the Reformatory.

§ LORD ARUNDELL OF WARDOUR
complained that this institution should have been selected for complaint—it ought to be judged by the same standard as was applied to Protestant institutions of the kind. The outbreak at the Castle Howard Reformatory (of which the noble Lord read an account) showed that this Reformatory was not alone in its liability to such rebellions. He was informed that there were 180 boys in the institution and that the present manager had spent £1,200 upon it within the last year. He also begged to deny that this was a monastic institution. The management was a mixed one, partly lay and partly clerical; and the present managers undertook the management when the boys were in a bad state of discipline, and had not recovered from the effects upon their minds of the previous outbreaks.

§ THE EARL OF DERBY
said, he could not agree with the noble Lord who had just spoken, that this case had been selected for complaint, for he thought that the management of all reformatories was to be looked at in a perfectly impartial manner by the Government. He had listened to the statement of the outbreak at Castle Howard, but the noble Lord ought to remember that "two negatives make not an affirmative," and therefore an outbreak at Castle Howard did not afford any excuse for an outbreak at Mount St. Bernard's. Looking at what had taken place in the Reformatory, he thought his noble Friend (Lord Berners) was justified 22 in bringing the matter before their Lordships—a matter which was likely to affect the character of similar institutions. There could be no doubt but that these repeated outbreaks caused a great deal of alarm in the neighbourhood of the Reformatory. It was stated that this institution was no longer governed by monks, and he was glad to hear it, for he thought that the management of such a place should not be left in the hands of men who, from previous education and training, could not be well qualified for the task. It would, perhaps, have been better had this discussion been raised after the papers had been produced; but, at the same time, he must state that he had the fullest confidence in Mr. Sydney Turner. He trusted that such amendment would be introduced into this Reformatory as would prevent the recurrence of such scandals as were now complained of.