Lords Sitting of 16 June 1864

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading— Beer Houses (Ireland) * (No. 134).
committee—Chain cables and Anchors * (No. 101); Improvement of Land Act (1864) (No. 122) [H.L.]
Report—Chain Cables and Anchors (No.101).
Third Reading—Mortgage Debentures * (No. 107) [H.L.]; Scottish Episcopal Clergy Disabilites Removal * (No. 123) [H.L.], and passed.

NAVAL GUNNERY—QUESTION.
THE EARL OF HARDWICKEsaid, he wished to ask the noble Duke the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether it is true that the Government have determined to alter the Armstrong guns so as to make them muzzle-loaders and also to form the interior on the shunt principle of the Armstrong gun? He believed that the experiments at Shoeburyness between Sir William Armstrong's gun and Mr. Whitworth's had not been concluded and he would therefore only express as hope that the Government would not act precipitately in the matter.
THE DUKE SOMERSETsaid, that the Government about two, years ago ordered a number of seventy-pounders to be constructed, part at Woolwich and part at Elswick, so that the service should not be left without a supply of guns; but the Admiralty had not yet been able to pronounce whether muzzle-loading guns should: be definitively adopted or not for the naval service. The guns which had been made could easily be adapted to either muzzle or breech-loading. When the experiments were concluded, the report and the decision of the Government should be laid before Parliament at the earliest possible moment.

COUNTY COURTS AMENDMENT BILL.

  PETITION.
  LORD BROUGHAMsaid, a petition on a most important subject had been in trusted to him by the in habitants of Nottingham, chiefly of this trading class. They felt the greatest alarm, at the County Court Bill now before the House. One part they highly approved—the extension equitable jurisdiction, but they objected strongly to he limitation of one year in simple contract debts His noble and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor had announced his intention of changing that from one to

  1825
  three years; the Petition earnestly prayed he would also abandon or greatly alter the part of the Bill which alarmed them most —the abolishing imprisonment for small debts. They considered this at once most injurious to them, the great bulk of debts due to them being of small amount, and it would at once close the County Courts, from which they derived so great a benefit. This he stated to be quite true, according to all the opinions of the County Court Judges. Of sixty who returned answers without any concert whatever, fifty eight, were decidedly against the provisions of the Bill, one had doubts, and only one of the whole body approved of it. Nothing could be more inaccurate than the representation of the great numbers of commitments. There were 900,000 suits yearly in these courts, and of these not above 9,000, or 1 per cent, led to the judgment summons, which is the only possibility of commitment. In the superior Courts of King's Bench, Common Pleas, and Exchequer, there were eight times the number of arrests in proportion to the number of actions. But the judgment summons only led to actual commitment in a few cases. Thus, in one County Court, in 5,500 suits, these being the usual proportion of 1 per cent, of 550 of these summonses only thirty-seven led to commitment, all the others having led to payment or settlement. And of these thirty-seven only nine actually went to prison, the other twenty-eight having paid when arrested. Now, but for the fear of commitment, none of them would in all probability have paid. It was absolutely necessary that the imprisonment should be held over the heads of these debtors. He (Lord Brougham] considered that a most salutary course was pursued by some County Court Judges, Sir E. Wilmot and Mr. Dasent especially. Indeed, Mr. Dasent had furnished most valuable information on the whole subject in his very able answer to the question proposed. The course recommended was to suspend for a short time, as a month, the execution of the order, and in the course of this month the greater number paid, He.(Lord Brougham) thought a provision should be inserted in the Bill, not compulsory, but giving, the Judge a discretion to suspend for a time to be defined. He trusted, for the sake of trade and of the County Courts, that the prayer of the petitioners would be granted.

CHAIN CABLES AND ANCHORS BILL. [No. 101.]—COMMITTEE.
House in Committee (according to Order).
THE EARL OF CAITHNESSexpressed the hope that provision would be made for examining the iron and workmanship of cables and anchors, as well as for testing the finished article. It sometimes happened that when an extreme strain had been tried a fracture occurred upon a second test, even before the extreme strain was reached. Bessemer steel would stand 50 or 60 per cent more of tensile strain than the best Low Moor iron.
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, that he had communicated with the Board of Trade, and should not press the exemption which had been referred to on a former occasion.
Bill reported without Amendment; and to be read 3a To-morrow,

IMPROVEMENT OF LAND ACTS (1864) BILL— [No. 122.]—COMMITTEE.
House in Committee (according to Order).
LORD ST. LEONARDS, who was almost inaudible, was understood to object to many of the provisions of the Bill, and to say that in his opinion a more hazardous measure had never been brought forward.
LORD PORTMANdid not think that the Bill was open to so much objection as the noble and learned Lord appeared to think. Many private Acts contained the powers embodied in this general Bill. He thought great advantages would attend the passing of the Act in this respect, that whereas some of the clauses gave powers and facilities not afforded by the existing state of the law, any railway company seeking to have the benefit of them would have to come under the whole of the regulations of the Bill. The railway companies who thus adopted the Act would be put under a restraint to which they were not at present subjected.
THE EARL OF MALMESBURYthought the landed interest generally were much indebted to the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack for having not only collected the various statutes on this subject and consolidated the law, but also for encouraging a principle which, instead of being detrimental, would be of great advantage to the landed interest.
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he was placed at a disadvantage in replying to the objections of his noble and learned Friend by the circumstance that he had not been able to hear more than one word out of twenty that Were spoken by his noble and learned Friend. He could only say that, if the law relating to landed property had been allowed to remain in all respects as it was sixty years ago, that law would have operated as a continual drag upon the progress of society. Land ought not to be kept strictly bound by the system which prevailed in former times, but facilities should be afforded for improvements by the owners. It was desirable to make the law and its amendments keep pace with the interests of society, and to further instead of retarding them. The noble and learned Lord had objected that a tenant for twenty-five years should have the power of charging an estate; but from this it would appear that the noble and learned Lord had not read the Bill. It was provided that no charge could be created for more than twenty-five years, and in ordinary cases the tenant for life might be expected to survive that term, so that the estate would be handed down to his successor improved and unencumbered. Of late years powers for the improvement of land had been given to private companies, varying and conflicting in their character, and it had become necessary that the Legislature should step in and create, once for all, such definite general powers as ought to be given. That object was sought to be attained by the present Bill. Its provisions had been discussed with the greatest care in the Select Committee, and had been adopted after full comparison of the existing powers granted to various companies. He believed that the Bill if passed would confer great advantages on the country.
EARL GREYsaid, that if the noble and learned Lord (Lord St. Leonards) wished to abolish the whole system of settlement of landed estates, he had only to act upon the narrow principle of preventing improvements which seemed to meet with his approbation. It was only the relaxation of the old laws during the last twenty years, which had prevented the law of settled estates from being swept away as an intolerable nuisance to the country. Since the repeal of the Corn Laws in 1846, an enormous sum of money had been laid out in the improvement of land under the powers granted to private companies.
1828
Without those powers those improvements could not have been effected, and much injury and even ruin would have befallen many proprietors of land. One witness who was examined before the Committee stated that he himself had valued land in Scotland for improvements to the extent of a million sterling. As he (Earl Grey) was the person who first proposed to extend to the construction, of railways the same facilities for raising money which had already been given for the improvement of land, he wished to add one word upon that subject. It was clearly proved before the Committee last year, that a railway in the vicinity of a landed estate was an improvement as ascertainable as draining, building, or any other work. The Bill, as it stood, only proposed that money should be charged on land to the extent of the annual increase of value given to it by the projected railway, on the supposition that not one farthing was received in shares. He might mention an instance in which the construction of a railway near certain lands on the Humber, had increased the annual value from £1,150 a year, to £1,540 a year, and the object of the present Bill was to give facilities for such improvements as that. If they adhered to the principle already adopted, there was no reason for excluding railways from participating in the advantage.
LORD ST. LEONARDSassured his noble and learned Friend that he never had been opposed to rational progress and improvement; nor had any one assisted more than he had, in removing from the statute-book all enactments which were no longer necessary.
LORD REDESDALEsaid, he certainly agreed with this Bill, which would be a great improvement on the existing state of things. He was extremely anxious that the measure should be made compulsory on all companies. He had made this proposition in the Select Committee, and regretted exceedingly that his proposition had not been accepted.
LORD BROUGHAMwished to say two words in justice to his noble and learned Friend (Lord St. Leonards). It was a very great mistake to suppose or represent him as an enemy to the improvement of the law. He had some right to speak on that subject, as no one had taken greater part than he had done during the last forty years in effecting changes, and what were considered improvements in the law. Now, he could answer for his noble and

1829
learned Friend — on no occasion, whether in office, before he acceded to office, or since leaving office, had he been a decided persevering adversary of these improvements. On the contrary, he was bound to bear testimony to the great value of the help he had received in all those measures from his noble and learned Friend.
The clauses of the Bill, as amended by the Select Committee, were then presented, road, and agreed to.
The Report of the Amendments to be received To-morrow.

PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL—(No. 128.) [H.L.]

  THIRD READING.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.
  VISCOUNT STRATFORD DE REDCLTFFEsaid, he desired to make a few remarks on the subject. It so happened that he had some personal experience of one of the great schools included in the list of his noble Friend below (the Earl of Clarendon). He believed that all the others, with the exception of those in the City of London, were more or less founded on the same system, and therefore in making a few remarks on the system established and practised in the school in which he received his education—he meant Eton—he was not likely to deviate from what would apply more or less to the other schools. From the experience he had had—and he entered Eton at a very early age, between seven and eight—he wished to bear his testimony to what he believed most firmly to be the truth—namely, that the system in respect to its fundamental principles was substantially sound and good. What were the paints of that system? If he was not greatly mistaken they were, instruction in the first instance, then health, and formation of character. He had been brought up in the persuasion that, of all human languages, whether ancient or modern, Latin was the most logical in its construction; and with respect to Greek he believed that there was no language, unless it was modern German, which could compete with it in the power of expansion or in comprehensiveness. He could, therefore, conceive no better foundation for the study of language than on the one hand the most logical, and on the other the most comprehensive of languages. The system at Eton consisted of short school hours, with intervals between them; and
  1830
  thus the boys had opportunities for engaging in games of a manly description, which brought them into frequent intercourse with each other, and served to strengthen and develop their physical constitutions. Another most essential point in regard to such institutions was their influence in the formation of character. In this respect the system at Eton was that of leaving the boys as much to themselves as the course of instruction and necessary discipline of the school would allow, and certainly much more than was the case in private schools; and he thought this system tended to promote self-respect and the avoidance of many faults and vices, and qualified the boys for the position they were to fill in after life. Our public schools, however, like all other human institutions, were liable to abuse; and it might well be that, having been in existence for centuries, they were susceptible of improvement. He had, therefore, heard of the appointment of the Commission on the subject with satisfaction, and as far us he had read the voluminous reports on the table, he had derived a general impression very favourable to those who conducted the inquiry. But it should be borne in mind that the system pursued at Eton was designed for instruction in studies which were not of a nature to be practised at home. The boys would generally acquire a knowledge of their vernacular tongue at home, and the same remark applied to a great extent to an acquaintance with English literature. As to the introduction of new subjects of study, it was most undesirable that anything should be done which might have the effect of lowering the character of great national institutions like these, and there were many things which could hardly be introduced into the course of study without having that effect. He very much doubted whether any legislation in detail on this subject would be desirable. He did not object to an inquiry by Commission, in order to ascertain the requirements which the progress of time made necessary in those schools; but he should lament to see Parliament assuming the performance of a duty which could best be discharged by the masters.
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYsaid, it seemed to him that very little improvement was likely to be effected in this matter, unless some addition were made to the number and quality of the tutors. Everybody saw how difficult it was for

  1831
  tutors at public schools to discharge the duties of parents and relatives, and act as if they were the parents of the children they had to teach. His noble Friend (Earl Stanhope) said, the other day he wished to accommodate the system to meet the case of all boys, some of whom were idle, and some dull. Now he did not think they would be successful in reaching those peculiar cases by the plan they proposed of the alteration of the statutes, unless they-succeeded in obtaining men who took an interest in their business, and who would employ their minds and energies in rebuking the idle, and taking care to help forward the diligent as much as possible. They had heard a great deal the system of Dr. Arnold and the system of other men, but he believed that system of a man to be the man himself—and from his long experience in matters of: this nature he felt certain that no kind of, Arrangement they could make in the way of rules and regulations could compensate for the want of the living energies of a man.
  LORD CAMPBELLthought it would be useful to refer to the points suggested by the Bill, on which there seemed to be a general concurrence of opinion. On all sides it was admitted that the ancient languages ought not to lose the supremacy in public schools; which had hitherto belonged to them; that mathematics ought to be; more encouraged than they had been; that the elements of science ought to be made use of in instruction; that military drill which had been recently established in public schools Ought to be perpetuated; and that French should be made to form an essential part of education. He referred to the manly and enlightened views of Mr. William Johnson, an assistant master at Eton, on the latter point, and to the support which the Under Secretary of State—Lord Wodehouse—had lately given them. In spite of the general concurrence as to what ought to be done, there was no definite opinion as to how the necessary changes should be brought about. Direct legislation would not answer such a purpose. Parliament could never make itself in detail the taskmaster of public schools. It would not be easy for the authorities of Eton to act on the Report of the Commissioners, however much they wished to do so. They would be held back by no less than three impediments; fear of the parents who might not all approve of the reforms; fear of the school which had a strong spirit of conservative resistance;
  1832
  and fear of innovation which presented to their mind a mass of possible disorders. But the hope and view of the Commissioners was that their reforms would be brought about by the new governing bodies of public schools proposed to be created. He (Lord Campbell) was anxious for a moment to warn the House against that expectation. The new governing body of Eton, as sketched by the Commissioners, was so complex in its structure that no one could now divine the materials of which it might consist in the first instance. Beyond that there was the greatest possible uncertainty as to when it would come into existence. An Act of Parliament would be necessary for each governing body. Six or seven Bills would, therefore, come under discussion. They would open questions as to corporate prescription, vested rights, and the authority of founders. They might lead to party conflict, and no one could foresee in what manner they would, issue. But it was yet more important to consider the elements of discord, and the obstacles to action which the governing body proposed for Eton would contain. According to the plan of the Commissioners it was to be formed of the Proyost and fourteen Fellows. The Fellows were to be stipendiary and honorary; five of the first class; nine of the second. The nine honorary Fellows had a threefold subdivision. One would be the Provost; of King's; three would be appointed by the Crown, and five elected by the whole governing body. The stipendiary Fellows were to be divided into three clergymen and two laymen. The first element of conflict which occurred to any one who glanced at such: a project was the; probable antagonism of the new body with the Headmaster, who had no power to control it. These differences appeared to be inevitable between the honorary and stipendiary Fellows. The nominees of the Crown would clash with the elected members in the farmer section. Again the chance discord was provided in the solitary action of the Provost of King's. And, as regarded the latter section, the five stipendiary Fellows, a standing difficulty might arise between the clerical and lay ingredients it endeavoured to assimilate. It was not enough to say that such a body wanted the conditions of a reforming one—namely, simplicity and unity., Simplicity and unity had been ingeoiously and after much design, eliminated from it. Such a body might be admirable to give steadiness and

  1833
  firmness to a system of instruction well matured and previously established. But it was clearly not adapted to invade prejudices, modify abuses, and inaugurate reforms. The power which apparently characterized it without any limit was the vis inertiae by which decisions were arrested and debates prolonged. If at the end of the last century the Abbé Sieyes had been engaged to frame an Eton constitution he could not have produced one more elaborate, more intricate, more full of balances and cheeks, more incapable of movement and of action. It was not the Abbé Sieyes however, but Ovid, who had given its conception, when he said—
  …. "Corpore in uno,
  Frigida pugnabant calidis, humentia siccis,
  Mollia cum duris, sine pondere habentia pondus."
  These lines nearly shadowed a facsimile — since in one body, corpore in uno, the Commissioners resolved to join elements of zeal and elements of coldness, minds notoriously dry with minds of vigour and exuberance; men prone to yield and others certain of resisting; characters of gravity and weight with persons utterly deficient in these qualities. He (Lord Campbell) had ventured thus to criticize the new body which had been designed to govern Eton, only to establish this important proposition, that they must look to some other agency to bring about the changes generally wished for. Neither immediate legislation as to studies, nor the authorities existing now, nor the proposed body, could be described as equal to that purpose. The proposed body might have every advantage as an agency for governing, but was not to be relied on as an agency to initiate reform. He would venture to suggest, therefore, to the noble Lord (Lord Clarendon) and to the Government, that they should seriously weigh the course adopted a few years ago towards the University of Cambridge, where an Executive Commission was empowered to make statutes. An Executive Commission, created by an Act of Parliament, might at once proceed to the public schools and give effect to the Report of the Commissioners. It might be formed of the very persons by whom the inquiry had been so long and so diligently prosecuted. At least, his noble Friend (Lord Clarendon) might be at the head of it. Would anybody doubt that his noble Friend, at the head of an Executive Commission, would be more apt and more effective to introduce his own reforms than a mysteriously Constituted body, to be called into existence at a time they could
  1834
  not calculate at present. As they were still six weeks from the ordinary termination of the Session, there was no difficulty as to passing the necessary Act of Parliament. A noble Earl on the other side (the Earl of Malmesbury) had regretted the exposure which the blue-books invoked. If there was such an exposure as to gratify unfavourable critics of our public schools, either abroad or in this country, it was too late to recall it. The only question they could influence was whether the exposure should be the ground for merited reproach, or the path to long desired improvement. The whole House joined in aspiring to the latter of these two results; and he had ventured to submit to the House and to the Government, what appeared to be the only means by which that result could be, with any ease or with any certainty, accomplished.
  Motion agreed to: Bill read 3a and passed, and sent to the Commons.

NEEDLEWOMEN OF LONDON-REPORT OF THE COMMISSION.

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONsaid, that before the House adjourned he desired to ask a Question of the noble Earl the President of the Council. It would be recollected that last year the death of a needlewoman employed in a millinery establishment in the West End was caused partly by overwork and partly by the abominable and discreditable condition of the room in which she was employed. On the attention of the Government being called to the case, they promised that the subject of the ventilation of workrooms should be inquired into by a Commission then sitting; but up to the present time, though nearly a year had elapsed, neither their Lordships nor the country had heard anything more of the matter. He begged to ask, therefore, when the Report of the Commissioners would be produced. It was also well known that the large body of persons, who might be classed under the name of tailors, suffered from the same want of proper sanitary regulations, and he hoped that something would be done on their behalf. The waste of life which now occurred was such that, whether they looked to individuals or the community, the subject was of too much importance to be neglected. All he desired was that the Report should be printed and laid on the table as soon as

  1835
  possible, and he hoped the noble Earl would vise his best efforts to secure this result before Parliament was prorogued.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, there could be no objection to do what that noble Earl suggested. Having wade inquiry that day respecting the Report of the Commission, he found that it would be presented before the end of the Session.
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYsaid, the Commissioners had conducted their inquiry with so much zeal and ability that he should be loth to say one word against them. But he thought they had formed a wrong judgment in withholding their Report upon the milliners and dressmakers. They might have presented this Report at the beginning of the Session. but for their wish to combine with it the Report upon the needlewomen and slop-women of the East of London. Now, though there might be a difficulty in drawing a logical distinction between the two classes, there was a real distinction between them which everybody could understand; and if this delay had not take place, Parliament might have legislated to meet a great, and crying evil—an evil which was to be remedied by sanitary rather than by other regulations. He was glad that his noble Friend had called attention to the case of the tailors, because, though it did not come within the scope of inquiry, yet the waste of life among them was such as to make it of the greatest importance to them and their families that the evils which affected them should be redressed; moreover, the sanitary condition of those men and of many more like them was of national importance, not only on account of the waste of life, but the waste of health, which every year threw thousands and tens of thousands upon the poor rates. He felt certain that if the Legislature had wisdom enough to pass good sanitary laws and compel their adoption by a system of Inspectorship, the burden upon the rates of this country would be reduced by, at least, one-third in the course of the next five years.
  House adjourned at half past Seven o'clock, till To-morrow half past Seven o'clock.