Lords Sitting of 14 June 1864

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Select Committee— On Improvement of Land Act, 1864 * (No. 36) [H. L.]; Report (No. 130).
Committee—Union Assessment Committee Act Amendment* (No. 102); Ecclesiastical Courts and Registries (Ireland) (No. 96) [H.L.]
Report— Improvement of Land Act (1864)* (No. 36) [H. L.]; Mortgage Debentures (No. 107) [H. L.]; Public Schools* (No. 128) [H. L.]; Scottish Episcopal Clergy Disabilities Removal * (No. 123) [H. L.]
Third Reading—Court of Justiciary (Scotland)* (No. 82), and passed.

LORD ELGIN AND LORD CANNING.

  EXPLANATION.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, he wished to call the attention of his noble Friend the President of the Council to a statement made by him yesterday evening, which had been misunderstood or misreported not only by one, but by several, of the newspapers of that morning. It was on a point mainly personal, but not wholly devoid of historical importance, and perhaps not without some interest in an official point of view. When his noble Friend was speaking of Lord Elgin's career, and rendering no more than

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  a just tribute to his merits, he referred to that part of his career in which, at Singapore, on his way to china, he agreed to divert and did divert the Droops which were then on their way from England to China, in order that they might be sent to India to assist in suppressing the mutiny, and he understood his noble Friend to say that he did so at the urgent request, of the Governor General of India, and on his responsibility. Reading the reports, however, he found that his noble Friend was represented to have said that Lord Elgin
  "Was fully rewarded by having an opportunity of showing his disinterestedness when on his way to China he was met by, the, news of the rebellion, and took upon himself the responsibility of diverting his troops to India."
  Any one who read that report would naturally think that Lord Elgin in diverting the troops under his command to India had acted on an original notion which had occurred to him. Lord Canning had been charged by those who knew nothing of the circumstances of the case with having been the last man; to acknowledge the gravity of the revolt; whereas the papers laid before their Lordships showed that Lord Elgin had acted upon a distinct and urgent demand made on him by the Governor General of India. Lord Canning in fact, Wrote to Lord Elgin, asking him to move to India as many regiments as possible at his disposal before sending them on to China, and he concluded thus—
  "I place the matter briefly before your Lordship, but I hope, clearly enough to enable you to come to a ready decision. I will add that I am willing and anxious to bear the whole responsibility of all the consequences of turning aside the troops from China to India."
  Lord Elgin, in cordially acceding to this request after consultation with General Ashburnham to divert the troops, said—
  "In diverting from their destination a portion of the troops under my command, both the General and myself feel that we are incurring a heavy responsibility and are making great sacrifices."
  The merits of Lord Elgin were of so high a character, that they did not need enhancement by detracting from the merits of anyone else; and he thought that his noble Friend the Lord President would not hesitate to state distinctly that while Lord Elgin had entered most cordially into the execution of the plan proposed by Lord Canning, the proposition emanated from Lord Canning, and that he emphatically stated that he was willing to take upon himself the whole of the responsibility.
  EARL GRANVILLE: I should be one
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  of the last to find; fault with the accuracy with which the speeches made, here are reported in the newspapers; but if we re collect how often we speak in a conversational kind, of tone across this table, and what a noise there is often going on under the reporters' gallery, it is difficult to understand how even the substance of our observations is caught. My noble Friend is quite right in bringing the matter under the attention of your Lordships, because everything that happened at the time referred to is worthy of being correctly recorded. My noble Friend is perfectly correct as to the substance of what I in tended to say; I will not answer for the words. What I meant to say was that Lord Elgin on his way out to China was met by the news of the Indian rebellion, and received an urgent appeal from Lord Canning to divert the troops under his command to India, and that Lord Canning took upon himself the entire responsibility of the act. It never occurred to me to detract from the merits of either of these two great and distinguished men — and, indeed, the fact always struck me as a singular instance of the presence of mind with which Lord Canning availed himself of every possible resource at his command in a great emergency With regard to the responsibility, Lord Canning took upon himself the responsibility of making the request, and Lord Elgin the responsibility of granting it. I think, my chief reason for alluding to the circumstance was to remark on the singular coincidence of two college friends after a separation by political employment for many years, finding themselves meeting in a distant part of the world under such circumstances, and joining cordially in a measure which, if not the turning-point of the rebellion, was at least of the greatest importance in enabling the Governor General to suppress it.
  LORD LYVEDENsaid, that his noble Friend had certainly been misrepresented by the newspapers, for he had paid particular attention to his speech, having remarked that in the other House both Lord Palmerston and Sir Charles Wood had laid too much stress on Lord Elgin's conduct in this affair, and to a certain extent had detracted from the merit of Lord Canning—though that might be quite unintentional. The Secretary of State said that the reason why part of Lady Elgin's pension was charged on-the Indian revenues was that at a critical moment Lord Elgin had diverted the troops from China to

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  India, The memory of Lord Canning did not need any vindication from any one; but when that statement had been made in the House of Commons, it was only right that his noble Friend the President of the Council should have given the explanation which their Lordships had just heard. Lord Canning sent a message to Lord Elgin and General Ashburnham, urging them in a way that did not admit of refusal for troops, and under these circumstances Lord Elgin was entitled to the credit of allowing the troops to be diverted; but the idea had originated entirely with Lord Canning. At the same time he sent to Sir Henry Ward at Ceylon, and a short time after he sent to Sir George Grey at the Cape for similar assistance. Having said so much on that point, while expressing his concurrence in what had been said as to the merits of Lord Elgin, he thought the Government ought to consider whether any portion of the pension to be given to Lady Elgin ought to be charged on the finances of Indian. No pension had been given to Lady Ward out of the Indian revenues, although Sir Henry Ward died at Madras immediately after his removal from the governorship of Ceylon, from the effects of the climate of India. He was glad to say that Sir George Grey was still performing excellent service for his country; but those two men had sent troops to India as well as Lord Elgin, and it could scarcely be said that the fact of his Lordship having been for a short time Governor General entitled his widow to a pension charged on the finances of India.
  VISCOUNT STRATFORD DE RED-GLIFFE, as a very near relation of one of the parties and as a friend of the other, wished to say that he understood the speech of the President of the Council last evening as one which did equal justice to Lord Canning and Lord Elgin. As he had not spoken on the previous occasion their Lordships would allow him to take the opportunity of expressing his satisfaction, and more than satisfaction, at the statement in which his noble Friend the President of the Council had done justice to Lord Elgin and his widow. He had listened with attention to every word which fell from his noble Friend, and he found that the speech of the noble Earl entirely expressed his own feelings on the subject. It was impossible to have heard the recital of the eminent services of Lord Elgin without a feeling of gratification; and it was equally impossible to contemplate the
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  loss the country had sustained by his death without a feeling of the deepest sorrow. He was sure their Lordships all felt grateful to Her Majesty for having given so signal a mark of her appreciation of Lord Elgin's great merits, and for having done justice to an illustrious public servant. It was most satisfactory to find that in a monarchical country such sentiments of gratitude for public services should exist; that those feelings of jealousy which were so often found to prevail in democratic communities had no place here, and that the nation responded to the example given to it by the Crown, and was anxious to do justice to those who deserved well of their country.

SIR ROWLAND HILL, K.C.B.—ADDRESS ON THE QUEEN'S MESSAGE.
Order of the Day for the consideration of the QUEEN'S MESSAGE of the 6th instant read.
MESSAGE read.
EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, last evening I asked your Lordships to concur in measures to secure a pension to the widow of a distinguished Member of your Lordships' House, who, having entered early into the service of the country, fell full of honours, if not of years, before the nation had reaped all the benefits which his great knowledge and experience would have conferred upon it had he been spared to a more advanced age. To-day I have to make a somewhat similar proposal in favour of one who, having entered comparatively late into the public service, and having served the public faithfully for a quarter of a century, now enjoys the satisfaction of seeing the great scheme of his life carried out with entire success, to the great advantage of this country, and, I may add, of the entire world. We can hardly conceive the progress that has been made in postal development without referring back to the postal history of that time. I cannot doubt that your Lordships will entirely concur with the Report of the Committee which sat twenty-five years ago, to inquire into the measure proposed by Mr. Rowland Hill's penny postal scheme. In that Report it is stated that—
"On the management of the Post Office, and the regulation of the postage rates, depends in a great measure the entire correspondence of the Country, and in that correspondence is involved whatever affects, interests, or agitates mankind— private interests, public interests, family, kindred, friends, commercial interests, professional business, literature, science, art, law, politics, education, morals, religion."

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They reported on the almost universal evasion of the postage, It was shown that in some of our commercial districts five-sixths and four-fifths of the letters were sent in violation of the law. In some towns only one letter in fifty went through the post office. All over the country the law was systematically violated in the transmission of letters. They found that the system which then existed pressed with peculiar hardship upon the poorer classes in this country. Sir Rowland Hill then brought forward his scheme. I am aware that there is some dispute as to who was the first person to propose the scheme of a penny postage; but every one must acknowledge that, if not quite the foremost, Sir Rowland Hill was one of the foremost in advocating that plan. He was certainly assisted in it by various persons and bodies. Mr. Wallace took an active share in forwarding it. The Chambers of Commerce took an active share, and especially the London Mercantile Committee, of which Lord Overstone was a distinguished member, and which issued papers on the subject marked by great activity and ability. But, whatever were the merits of this advocacy, we are accustomed in this country to ascribe the real credit of any reform to the energy, and industry, and determination of the men who practically carry it out. Great credit is due to the noble Marquess behind me (the Marquess of Clanricarde) for the appointment of Sir Rowland Hill to a position in the Post Office which enabled him to carry out his scheme—for your Lordships must not forget that, however successful the penny postal system may now be, it was much opposed at that time, and Sir Rowland Hill was looked upon as a rash schemer and innovator. But the result of his innovation has been entirely satisfactory, and the number of letters which pass through the post is now nine times what it was twenty-five years ago. It is not only in England, too, that communication by letter has vastly increased. In the colonies there has also been a great increase; and the example set in this country has been followed to a certain extent by every civilized nation. But the scheme for the penny postage does not embrace the whole of the postal reforms introduced, by Sir Rowland Hill. By developing the book post he has conferred a great boon on literature, and has given a great impetus to education, while the money order system has given immense facilities for the transmission of money from one part of the kingdom to the
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other, and has assumed extraordinary proportions. Here are some statistics which will show your Lordships what has been the development of the postal system. In 1838, before the penny postal system, the total number of letters which passed through the Post Office was 76,000,000; in 1863 the number was 642,000,000. In 1838 the amount of money orders was £313,000; in 1863 it amounted to £16,494,000. My Lords, I think I have stated enough to show that one who has accomplished so much for the people of this country, and for mankind at large, is entitled to some national reward; and I am sure your Lordships will pass this Vote with the same cordiality with which you yesterday evinced your sense of the merits of another public servant. The noble Earl concluded with his Motion.
Moved,
"That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, to return Her Majesty the Thanks of this House for Her Majesty's most gracious Message informing this House 'That Her Majesty, taking into consideration the eminent Services of Sir Rowland Hill, K.C.B., late Secretary to the General Post Office, in devising and carrying out important improvements in Postal Administration, is desirous, in recognition of such Services, to confer some signal Mark of Her Favour upon him;' and to assure Her Majesty that this House will cheerfully concur in such Measures as may be necessary for the Accomplishment of this Purpose."—(The Lord President.)
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, he desired to express his entire approval of the Motion. There was this peculiarity in Sir Rowland Hill—that whereas inventors in general were the most sanguine of men who saw no difficulties in the way, and who exaggerated the probable results of their invention, he under-stated the value of his invention and over-estimated the difficulties and the expense of adopting it. He calculated that from the adoption of his scheme there would be a loss of £300,000, instead of which the gross increase of revenue had been £1,700,000; and after deducting £500,000 for the packet service and all other expenses, there was a clear net increase of £1,000,000. He agreed with his valued friend the late Lord Ashburton, that the carriage of letters was not a proper subject of revenue at all. With regard to the proposal now before the House, he could not doubt that their Lordships would be of opinion that Sir Rowland Hill well deserved the reward which was to be bestowed on him.
THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEhad the satisfaction of remembering that

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being then Postmaster General it was under him and through him in some degree that Sir Rowland Hill had entered the Post Office, and he felt bound to bear testimony to the extraordinary zeal for the public service, the judgment, the discretion, the temper, and unvarying urbanity with which he met all the difficulties that he had to encounter. Of course those who had been accustomed to the old system viewed the innovation proposed with great alarm and suspicion. He attributed no blame to these officers, believing that the opinions given by them against the new system were founded upon very natural fears and bias. As their Lordships were aware, the plan, on the contrary, proved eminently successful, and that success was owing in a great degree to the energetic perseverance of Sir Rowland Hill. But penny postage, as his noble Friend had said, was not the only improvement for which the nation had to thank Sir Rowland Hill. His belief was, that if it had not been for Sir Rowland Hill the business in the Money Order Office would not have reached to one-sixteenth of its present proportions—he doubted, in deed, whether that business would have been carried on any longer. No balance had been struck, and no one could tell what assets were in hand. He then asked Mr. Hill, who at that time had introduced some important improvements in the circulation of letters, to take this subject in hand. The result of that gentleman's efforts was to establish, if not an exact balance, at least what practically amounted to it; the system was materially altered, and instead of eleven entries for every money order the number was reduced to four or five, and since that time he had heard of no defalcation or fraud on the part of postmasters, such as had frequently occurred before that time. There could be no question whatever that the system had been productive of immense benefit to the lower and the humbler portions of the middle classes. During the time that he had the honour to be connected with the Post Office he always found that Sir Rowland Hill laboured zealously and efficiently, and always to his satisfaction. When objections to his plans were raised, Sir Rowland Hill always received them in a fair and temperate manner, and never complained of being overruled when fair grounds for so doing had been shown. Upon the whole, this country had never rewarded by a grant of money any public
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servant who more richly deserved it. Sir Rowland Hill's name would live in every country, for every country had derived benefit from his labours.
Motion agreed to.
Address Ordered, Nemine Dissentiente, to be presented to Her Majesty, to return Her Majesty the Thanks of this House for Her Majesty's most gracious Message informing this House,
"That Her Majesty, taking into consideration the eminent Services of Sir Rowland Hill, K.C.B., late Secretary to the General Post Office, in devising and carrying out important Improvements in Postal Administration, is desirous, in recognition of such Services, to confer some signal Mark of Her Favour upon him;" and to assure Her Majesty that this House will cheerfully concur in such Measures as may be necessary for the Accomplishment of this Purpose."
And the said Address was Ordered to be presented to Her Majesty by the Lords with White Staves.

MORTGAGE DEBENTURES BILL.

  (NO. 107.) REPORT.
  Amendments reported (according to Order).
  THE EARL OF MALMESBURY, on behalf of the Duke of Marlborough, moved the insertion of a new clause, providing that in cases where, by the instrument creating the trust, trustees are expressly authorized to invest the trust money upon the security of land or real property, they or the major part of them may apply to the Court of Chancery in England or Ireland, or to the Court of Session in Scotland, for an order or declaration of the Court empowering the trustees to invest any monies subject to the trust upon the security of mortgage debentures issued under this Act.
  After a short discussion, Amendment negatived.
  Bill to be read 3a on Thursday next.

ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS AND REGIS TRIES (IRELAND) BILL—(No. 96.)

  COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into a Committee on this Bill read.
  THE BISHOP OF OXFORDsaid, that his right rev. Brother the Bishop of Exeter, who had given notice of a Motion, on going into Committee on this Bill, to move that a Select Committee be appointed to consider and report on the Modes of Appeal proposed in the 83rd, 84th, and 85th. sec-

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  tions of the Bill, had requested him to state to their Lordships that he had become so exhausted in his efforts to come to. and remain in the House, that he could not stay until this Bill was brought on. But as the most rev. Primate of Ireland bed intimated his intention not to proceed with the clauses which, were objected to that night, he (the Bishop of Oxford) would not move the Amendment of his right rev. Brother; and he would take that opportunity of stating that he would withdraw the Amendment of which he had himself given notice and leave the matter in the hands of the most rev. Prelate.
  House in Committee.
  Clauses 1 to 82 agreed to.
  THE ARCHBISHOP OF ARMACHmoved to omit Clauses, 83, 84. and 85.
  THE EARL OF BELMOREsaid, that although he Bought that the most rev. Prelate had taken a prudent course in consenting to the rejection of these clauses, which related to the question of the final appeal in matters of doctrine, when he found that, from the state of feeling in the House with regard, to them, to press them would endanger the safety of the Bill, it was a matter very much to be regretted that it was rendered necessary to give them up. The Court of Final Appeal in Ireland at present was the Court of Delegates, which he was informed consisted of three Puisne Judges and a certain, number of civilians. Now, in: Ireland, there were nine Puisne Judges, six of whom were now Roman Catholics, so that practically there were only three Judges who could be members of this court. Of the remaining persons, namely, the civilians, he doubted if there were any who were well qualified to undertake this sort of duty. With regard to the alternative, namely, the Judicial Committee (of the English Privy Council) he would not undertake to say whether it was a satisfactory tribunal or not, but what he wished to. insist upon was, that he considered that under the 5th Article of the Act of Union, the Church of Ireland had an absolute right to have in matters of doctrine the same Court of Final Appeal as the Church of England. The terms of that Article were, that, the doctrine, worship, discipline, and government; of the said Church (meaning the Church of Ireland) shall be and shall remain, in full force for ever, as the same are by law established for the Church of England." And he (Lord Belmore) could not see now, as long as there
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  were two separate Courts of Final Appeal this uniformity could be made certain. At the same time, as he said before, he thought that the most rev. Prelate had exercised a wise discretion in now yielding this point, which might be more successfully brought forward another day, rather than risk the safety of this very important measure.
  Clauses struck out.
  Remaining clauses agreed to.
  Report of the Amendments to be received on Friday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 132.)
  House adjourned at half past Seven o'clock, to Thursday next, half past Ten o'clock.