§ Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
§ EARL GRANVILLEMy Lords, am very reluctant to trespass upon year attention, but a very eminent member of the University of Oxford feels considerable annoyance at the somewhat unwarrantable manner in which his name has been referred to in debate, and wished that some notice should be taken of it. I refer to 1626 The Dean of Christ Church. A noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Montrose) Stated the other evening that the evidence of the Dean of Christ of Church was not worth much, considering that everybody knew that no young men went up to Christ Church for the purpose of reading or for the purpose of obtaining honours. Now, if your Lordships turn to the Dean's evidence, you will see that it was not applied to all the boys who go up for matriculation, but only to the average boys; and his opinions respecting their attainments certainly do not stand alone, for they are supported by other witnesses of undoubted competency. The Rev. D. P. chase, Principal of St. Mary Hall, Said,—
In my, opinion, the previous education given to the mass of those who enter the university does not fulfil sacisfacatorily the purpose of grounding in the classical studies which they are required to purpose. The result is that the minimum of attainment necessary for the B.A. degree is far below what it might and ought to be, while the difficulty which the majority of the passmen have in producing even that minimum necessarily restricts and narrows the course. Much of the teaching given at the University is such as ought to have been given at school This, while it tends to weary and disgust those who have been better taught, precludes any higher teaching of those who must be kept to schoolboy work.… Consequently for matriculation, it is usual to examine candidates only in authors which they have got up for the purpose, The answers to easy grammatical papers are commonly very imperfect; the Lathin prose composition rarely such as would be accepted even at responsions (little go). Deficiency in arithmatic Euclid, and algebra frequently causes postponement of admission, and in most cases necessitates very elementary teaching afterwards.The Rev. G. W. Kitchin, Junior Censor of Christ Church, said —The average men bring up but small results of the training to which they have been subjected for year. These is a general want of accuracy in their work; even the rudimentary knowledge of grammar and Latin prose writing is far less than it ought to be. I fear that the elementary schools send the little boys up to the public schools in a very unprepared state, and that the public schools, to a great extent, assume that the boys are fairly grounded when it is not the case. The only subject which are professed at; school, and do not form part of oar system of work, are such rudimentary matters as English composition spelling arithmetic, &c. In these there seems to, be considerable deficiency. The University course of teaching is much hampered by the necessity of supplementing the shortoomings of school education. Our system becomes for average men, both narrow and vague. We feel that the most we can do for men who come up deficient in knowledge of grammer, history, languages, &c., is to 1627 Provide something fro them to do; the time for real progress seems, in many cases, to be absolutely past.Again, he says—With a matriculation examination whose standard is, very low and solely intended to prove that men have n fair chance of afterwards passing response, and with every wish to admit men, we have still been obliged this year to reject about one-third of the whole number who have presented themselves.;… As to average men, their exact knowledge of grammar, &c., is now, tested by us, whereas a few years ago it was almost taken for granted, "This makes me different in expressing an opinion about its improvement or decay. On the whole, I am inclined to think it has gone backwards, for can easily imagine it better; if would be hard to conceive it much worse.I think this shows that the Dean of Christ Church is not alone in the evidence he gave. With regard to the charge that nobody ever heard of young men going to Christ Church with any intention of reading, the last list of Oxford-University shows, as am informed, that out of five first-classes in mathematics two are front Christ Church. In the present year Christ Church men have also gained the Ireland University Scholarship, the Junior Mathematical Scholarship, and the Oriel Fellowship; and at the end of least week another Christ Church man won the Senior Hebrew Scholarship against very good competitors. That makes three University Scholarships gained this year. Taking the years 1861, 1862, 1863. the period comprised in the last University Calendar, they reckon a Radcliffe Travelling Fellowships, a Stanhope prize for Greek prose; in the Moderation School, nine first classes and fourteen seconds in the final classical schools, three first classes and four seconds, But there is another school which has great attractions for the class of young men who are most numerous at Christ Church— the School of Law and Modern History. Last November, out of five first class men, three were from Christ Church; and two out of five second-class men. Since the present lecturer Mr. Owen, was appointed, three years ago, there have been twenty candidates for honours in that school. Of these five obtained a first-class, ten a second, and five a third; so that not one fell below a third. Since the first establishment of the school in 1853, Christ Church has had seventeen first-class men, twenty second, and thirteen third Lately, I am informed, the University has relaxed its requirements in classics a little, so that 1628 the young men will be able to given more time to these studies; and they are doing so. The examinations; are becoming harder, and yet the number of candidates for honours is increasing. There are instances which are of interest to your Lordships. The noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Carnarvon). himself got a first-class in this school; so did Lord Lothian and Lord Cowper. Lately Mr. Abbott, Lord-Colchester's son, got, a first class in this school, after having gained another first in classics and the Stanhope prize; and hope al some very distant date he will in this House display the business like habits which have always distinguished his father here. Lord Kenyon's' son has just got a second-class, and it has been stated that many of his papers were up to the mark of a first-class. My noble Friend (Lord Wodehouse) has been so long among us that I think it hardly necessary to allude to the distinctions which he gained. This list will make good the conclusion, that' if no young man whatever came to read, the tutors and lecturers must hare a marvellous power of; overcoming the vis inertioe of a large number of these resolute dunces. It appears that at the present moment there are sixty or seventy young men at Christ Church reading, for honours of one kind or another.
§ Moved. That the House do now resolve itself into a Committee on the said Bill.
LORD RAVENS WORTHsaid he had felt much pain when these remarks were made upon the evidence: of the, Dean of Christ Church, who was his near relation, because, not haying read the Dean's evidence, he was unable from want of proper information to notice those observations at the time. The Lord President of the Council had attempted to justify, and perhaps succeeded in justifying, the evidence by bringing forward other, statements of a still stronger nature as to the incompetence of boys sent up to Oxford from the public schools. But, as the remarks made the other evening had a tendency to cast blame upon the Dean, it was important to know what the evidence given by him before the Royal Commissioners really amounted to. His noble and gallant Friend (Lord De Ros) had spoken with high praise of the general character and conduct, of Eton boys; and, he entirely concurred in, what his noble and gallant Friend, had said upon this subject, and upon the great merits of that establishment. But it seemed to be 1629 assumed from the evidence of the Dean of Christ of Church, that Eton boys spent their Sundays in public-houses, in smoking and drinking, and in wandering about the fields, not unfrequently in a state of intoxication; that; they were not instructed in the Scriptures; that they went up to matriculation entirely ignorant, and showed a disinclination to be further instructed. How having greasy to thank his parents fur having teat him to Eton, and to the masters who taught him there, it would have given him great distress if any such evidence had Seen give by a man bearing his name. But, on turning to the blue-book, be found not one particle of evidence in the course of the Dean's examination which in any respect bore out these charges, and they must therefore be founded upon statements emanating from some other quarter. As to the scholarship of these who came up for matriculation from Eton and Harrow, if the Dean of Christ Church found from his own experience that these young men were ill grounded, and that they could scarcely pint into decent Latin any exercise submitted to them, he was perfectly justified in stating those facts. The Dean of Christ Church bad stated in his evidence that he thought the out-of-door occupations and the amusements of boys in large public schools offered greater temptations to the neglect of study than those to which boys in smaller schools were exposed. The Dean of Christ Church was certainly correct in his statement to a certain extent; but he might have so far qualified the inference which he had drawn as to bear in mind that those temptations existed only during the summer months, when She days were long and the weather fine, when there were the attractions of cricket matches in the hay fields and boat races on the river. But during the other periods of the year the boys attended to their studies as diligently as at other schools. He had intended to dwelt at some length upon the general question, but as there stilt remained so much business before their Lordships he should be content with referring to the evidence of his learned and accomplished relative the Dean of church church.
THE DUKE OF MONTROSEsaid, he was glad the noble Earl had had the opportunity of getting him tight. He was sorry that, in the hurry of debate, he had made use of expressions that were too strong with reference to the evidence of the Dean of Christ Church. What he had intended to say was, that the expressions 1630 made use of by the Dean of Christ Church had given considerable annoyance to the authorities at Eton, because they believed that the opinions of that gentleman were not put in a manner which would give a correct impression. After saying that Eton and Westminster had not of late taken as many prize as formerly, Rugby and Marlborough having been very successful, Mr. Sandford, Senior Censor of Christ Church, went on to say—
It must, however, be remembered that Eton has difficulties to contend with from which the other schools are free. The, parents of the boys are richer; their sons have not their fortunes to make. In fact, it has the same difficulties to cope with as we have at Christ Church. It may be said that eldest sons come to Christ Church, and younger: sons go to other Colleges, The boys at the other schools, on the contrary, know that if they are to succeed they must work. The, real advantage derived from Eton is less intellectual than social education. Eton is expected to make a boy a gentleman, and this expectation it fulfils. It may be added, that many boys are sent to Eton not to learn, but to form connections. We do not, however, get the élite from Eton or Harrow. Christ Church has the é lite from Westminster.The Rev. G. Kitchin, Junior Censor of Christ Church, said—I resigned my tutorship in 1855 and returned in 1862, and have had the opportunity of observing the state of the same class of men after an interval of seven years. They are decidedly improved, and show the effect of the great step which has been taken forward by the schools. Athletics have exerted a salutary influence on their moral condition, though there is, especially on the part of the public school men, a tendency to concentrate on sports and amusements that energy which ought to be given to work.Dr. Liddell said, that Christ Church did not get the élite of Eton, as they mostly went to Cambridge. The success of Etonians at Cambridge was very creditable Only last year, out of fifteen King's College men in the Classical Tripos six were Etonians, and they were all in the first class. At Oxford, in 1863, Etonians not at Christ Church carried off a scholarship at Trinity, University, Lincoln, and Corpus; white at Cambridge two Etonians obtained scholarships. The success of Etonians at Cambridge did not bear out the statement that classics only were taught at Eton. What he did say on a former occasion was, that a great number of young men do not go to Christ Church for the pin-pose of reading, bat simply to pass away some years of their life. He would state what had been done at Christ Church since the present Dean had occupied that office. From 1856 to 1863 there were only four first-class men in classical 1631 honours at Christ Church, and of those four two were Etonians. During the same period there were thirty-one first-class men in classical honours at Balliol, of whom seven were Etonians. That fact showed that Eton did bring forward some scholars, and also that his statement with regard to Christ Church was not so unfounded as was supposed. He could not but admit that great improvement had taken place at Eton, arid that there were many excellent scholars educated there. The instruction in geography and mathematics had made great progress, but he believed that French could with advantage be incorporated as a portion of the system of education.
§ THE EARL OF MALMESBURYsaid, he must attribute a certain want of discretion to the Commissioners in furnishing evidence which he thought ought not to have been published at all. They might have impressed on the country the necessity of reform of the great public schools, without going into those details. When the Duke of Wellington had won the battle of Waterloo he would not go into the question of trivial charges against a few young officers—and depend upon it he (Lord Malmesbury) was not taking a view which would not he borne out, when he said that the Commissioners had laid the ground of every sort of hostile criticism by foreign writers on the educated classes of this country and the schools at which they were brought up. He had read the Report and the evidence with an unbiassed mind, and if the statements made were true, it was most humiliating not only to those who sent their sons there, but to the whole nation. But were they true? With all respect to the Commissioners he must say he had great doubt as to whether they were true, he was at Eton, and he declared positively that it must be extremely altered, nay entirely changed, from what it was if these allegations were well founded. Among other things, the Commissioners recommended the teaching of drawing. That was quite right; but from that it might be supposed that drawing had not been taught there previously; whereas in his time a master was employed for that purpose, who was the celebrated Mr. Evans. It was intimated by the Commissioners that there was a supine state of mind on the part of the boys. All he could say was that a very different state of things prevailed from what had existed formerly, when a magazine called The 1632 Etonian was published, to which Win-throp Praed was a contributor, and which Contained contributions which, when he reverted to them now, he must pronounce to be of a very high class. The only consolation 'he had on looking at this evidence was that he really could not believe it.
§ THE EARL OF CLARENDONwould only say a word in answer to the attack the noble Earl had thought proper to make upon the Commissioners. The noble Earl was quite unmindful of what the Commissioners had been appointed for, of their duties, and their responsibilities. Because they had taken evidence which it was their duty to take, and which was unpalatable, and because they had not garbled it, they were to be called indiscreet!
§ THE EARL OF MALMESBURYI did not say you should have garbled it, but that you should have used discretion as to what you printed.
§ THE EARL OF CLARENDONsaid, the noble Earl had only expressed in other words, and with greater circumlocution, the phrase he had himself employed. The noble Earl said that, having taken evidence which it was their duty to take, they should have altered or suppressed it—and this he would have had them do, as gentlemen, as honest men, and as men responsible to the; public, in order that foreigners might think better of us that we deserved. No such feeling animated him or any of his colleagues, and he should have been ashamed of himself if he had obtained the noble Earl's approbation by any such course as he had suggested. It was the duty of the masters at Eton and other schools to, answer the questions of the Commissioners as to the education and morality, and the general conduct of their scholars. They all answered the questions honestly, and said that there were exceptions as to morality, and that some did go to public-houses to drink. From the tutors at Oxford the Commissioners received concurrent testimony as to the ill-preparation of the boys sent up, numbers being sent back upon matriculation. Yet all those facts were to be suppressed to make foreigners think better of us. than we merited ! The Commissioners would have neglected their duty if they had omitted to publish facts which would tend to bring to bear that pressure of public opinion by means of which alone a reform of our public schools could be brought about. However humiliating might be the facts stated, they were true. The noble Earl had referred 1633 to the conduct of the Duke of Wellington after, the battle of Waterloo; but then the Duke' had won the battle, while what the Commissioners had to do was to win the battle of school reform. The noble Earl, who had perhaps read half a dozen pages of, the Report, said he did, not believe the statements, but the Commissioners who hail given their most careful attention to the whole subject did believe them.
§ LORD REDESDALEexpressed a doubt whether there were a sufficient number of masters at Eton, looking to the number of boys in the different classes. The point had not been referred to in the debate, but he hoped it would receive consideration.
§ THE EARL OF POWIScontravened the statement that many of those who went up to Oxford from Eton, and who were likely to inherit fortunes, did not put themselves forward for honours, and appealed to the evidence of the class lists to the contrary.
§ Motion agreed to: House in Committee accordingly: Amendments made: The Report thereof to be received To-morrow; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 128.)
§ House adjourned at half past Eight, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock,