Lords Sitting of 13 June 1864

MINUTES.
— Sat First in Parliament—The Viscount Hereford, after the death of his Father.
PUBLIC BILLS—Committee—Public Schools (No. 100) [H. L.]; Scottish Episcopal Clergy Disabilities Removal * (No. 123) [H. L.]
Report—Admiralty Lands and Works* (No.88); Court of Justiciary (Scotland)* (No. 82).
Third Reading—Insance Prisoners Act Amendment*(No. 111).

THE COUNTESS OF ELGIN AND KINCARDINE—THE QUEEN'S MESSAGE OF MONDAY LAST.
Order of the Day for the consideration of the QUEEN'S MESSAGE of Monday last read.
MESSAGE read.
EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, in accordance with the Notice hate given, have to ask your Lordships' concurrence to the Message which has just been read; and have little doubt that your Lordships' sense of justice will induce you to cordially acquiesce in the course which propose. I think, at the same time, it would not be respectful to your lordships if did not make a short-statement-as to the necessity of the case and the circumstances which from the ground of a debt of gratitude from this country to the late Lord Elgin. Your Lordships are all aware that Lord, Elgin's name was especially dear to the, northern portion of this island. Lord Elgin distinguished; himself at Eton, and he subsequently achieved the highest distinctions at the University. It is a remarkable fact that of those who were his, contemporaries, and with whom he associated at the University, there were: six persons to whom the country looked up as likely for a long period to take a prominent part in the legislative and administrative affairs of the country. Of those five friends of his, only one now remains, in perfect health and strength, and able to discharge public duties. Sidney Herbert, afterwards Lord Herbert, is no more, Your Lordships on both sides of the House, without reference to party, the other day expressed your feelings of regret that the Duke of Newcastle is in that state; of health which gives little hope that he can ever again take an active part in administering the public business of the country. With regard to these two, it would be difficult to say that their labours, administrative and Parliamentary, and the courageous way in which they remained in harness to the last moment after their health had been attacked, may not have contributed to the injury of their constitutions. But of one thing we may feel perfectly certain that with regard to the three
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contemporaries who succeeded each other m the government of India, in consequence of the responsibilities of the responsibilities of their high office, and the discharge of their arduous duties in a climate of so unhealthy a character, they fell in the public service as much as Sir John Moore, at Corunna and Nelson at Trafalgar. After leaving the University, Lord Elgin took, his seat in the other House of Parliament, and made one good speech on a question pf considerable importance. Almost immediately afterwards his father died, and he was condemned by our Constitution to that anomalous position in which Scotch Peers who do not obtain a majority of the votes of their brethren are debarred from taking any part in the work of either House of Parliament. Lord Elgin was shortly afterwards appointed, to the office of Governor of Jamaica, and believe he was the youngest governor who ever left these shores. He carried on and consolidated the work which Lord Metcalfe projected and bad partly parried put. For four years he remained there, and for the succeeding eight years he was Governor general of the important colony of Canada; and now that all party feeling is abated, I may, say that by the maintenance of strictly constitutional principles in that colony, in the opinion of those best acquainted with the subject, he did, much, to preserve the loyalty of the people and their attachment to the Crown of this country. I may mention that during his tenure of office in Canada he was appointed to negotiate a most important treaty, with the United States of America. On his return to this country he was sent to China to conduct negotiations which, it must be obvious to your Lordships, were, of a most difficult character. He successfully negotiated the the Treaty of Tien-tsin. On coming back he joined the Government, in which he filled the office of Postmaster General, But in consequence of difficulties, having arisen through the Emperor of China refusing to ratify the Treaty of, Tien-tsin, Lord Elgin was requested to go out again to China; and your Lordships will remember the successful manner in which he conducted the subsequent negotiations. He thought he was fully rewarded by the opportunity afforded him of showing his disinterestedness when he was met by information of the rebellion in India, and took upon himself the responsibility of assenting to Lord Canning's request for the diversion of the troops placed under his orders, for the war. in China, and sending them to assist in quelling the Indian mutiny.

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At the same time, Lord Elgin himself proceeded to Calcutta, and we may imagine the feelings that arose in his breast when he Found that one of the few faces which were unblanched with fear was that of his early college friend, tile late distinguished Governor General of India. After that he proceeded to China, having given Lord Canning all the assistance in his power. He was again perfectly successful in China. At the same he had an opportunity of going to Japan, and there making a most important treaty of commerce. On his return to this country, he again joined the Government; but on the death of Lord Canning, he was sent out to fill that most important office, the Governor Generalship of India. My Lords, it has been said that Lord Elgin went out hot Without some anticipation that he should not return to this country; but am informed, on good authority, founded on the statement of his medical adviser, that his health was perfectly sound when he went there. He went out, and I believe he deserved all the credit bestowed upon him for the judgment with which be conducted affairs until he was struck down by the effects of the fatal climate; and after passing through the most expensive part of his career, he was thus without the means of saving money. This, it is expected, a Governor General will generally be able to do, and a larger salary is given them for that purpose. But am sure your Lordships will feel that one who lived in honourable exile from his country on very small means for the support of himself and his family is justly entitled to some recognition on the part of the nation. It is proposed that, in addition to an annual grant of £1,000 to be found by the Indian Government out of the Indian revenue, another £1,000 be paid annually to Lady Elgin out of the Consolidated Fund. I cannot help thinking that your Lordships will cheerfully concur in the Vote I have the honour to propose, not only from your generous feelings, but also from a perfect sense of justice. The noble Earl concluded with his Motion.
Moved,
"That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty to return Her Majesty the Thanks of this House for Her Majesty's most gracious Message informing this House that Her Majesty, taking into consideration the distinguished services performed throughout a long series of years by the late James Earl of Elgin and Kincardine, Her Majesty's Viceroy and Governor General of India, is, desirous, in recognition of such Services, to confer some Signal Mark of her Favour upon his Widow Mary Louisa Countries of Elgin and
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Kincardine;' and to assure Her Majesty that this House will cheerfully concur in such Measures as may be necessary for securing to Mary Louisa Countess of Elgin and Kincardine a pension of £1,000 a year for her natural life"—(The Lord President).
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH: My Lords, although cordially concur in everything which has fallen from the noble Earl, which must, am sure, have had the full assent of the House; still hope to be permitted to say a few words in favour of the Motion. I only knew Lord Elgin as a public man. I had occasion to see him before his first and second missions to China, and was with him for some time before he proceeded to India, and from the first moment that became acquainted with his public sentiments he acquired my most entire confidence, which he continued to deserve and retain. Lord Elgin's first mission to China was of a most delicate and unusual character, for he had, in conjunction with the envoy of the French Government, to direct the proceedings of the joint forces—military and naval—of the two Powers. The two nations did not stand in exactly the game position in regard to divers matters in China, and Lord Elgin and the French Envoy had different interests to support; but it was to the credit of Lord Elgin that, during the time over which the proceedings lasted, no one point of dispute arose between the two nations, or between the armies of the two nations, and the result was that the operations which he conducted in China were brought to a happy conclusion to the most entire satisfaction of the Government of this country. That having been the ease, Lord Elgin returned to England naturally desirous, after his twelve years of service, to have some rest at home, having passed almost the whole public part of his life abroad in the discharge of great public duties. But difficulties arose with the Chinese Government as to the performance of their obligations under the treaty. A great naval disaster occurred at the mouth of the Peiho, and it was thought right by Her Majesty's Government—and I believe they were perfectly justified in so thinking —to request Lord Elgin again to proceed to the scene of Iris former labours. said at that time, and now repeat, that do not recollect any occasion on which any public servant has been called upon to make so great a sacrifice as was then required of Lord Elgin. Not only had he to forego all the rest and comfort of home to which a man is justly entitled after a

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long period of public service, tout he was asked to encounter the risk of losing that great reputation which he had already acquired; in again engaging hi somewhat similar, but much greater, Operations against an enemy, with a very much larger force, and on a coast on which it was exceedingly doubtful whether a landing could safely he effected, and in a country where it was equally doubtful whether operations could be successfully carried on, and under circumstances in which the great abject was to get to the capital of China for the purpose of there securing a permanent and honourable peace. These were the great objects in view, but the difficulties were very great indeed; but these difficulties Lord Elgin surmounted. I know that many persons in this country, looking from a great distance at the operations in China, and seeing that they are conducted with almost uniform success, imagine that that success is obtained with great facility. There cannot be a greater fallacy. Depend upon it that no great public result is ever obtained by small efforts or without the exercise of more than ordinary talents. It is said that fortune is very capricious, but fortune, although not always faithful, generally shows a decided partiality to those who most deserve her favour. When Lord Elgin proceeded to India as Governor General, viewed his appointment with the most entire satisfaction. Able, prudent, resolute, unimpassioned, he appeared of all men to be the best qualified to act in the true spirit of Her Majesty's wise and beneficent proclamation to the people of India; to calm the animosities between the native and English races by impartial justice, and- to make both races forget the past in their common Advance to an amount hitherto unknown of material prosperity obtained by enlightened legislation. Unfortunately it did not seem good to Providence that Lord Elgin should be permitted to complete that great work of reconciliation, without which there is no permanent security for our dominion in India. After a very short illness—full of honour but not full of years—he terminated a life in which there had been no rest, which had been entirely devoted in every part of the world to the performance of great and arduous public duties. My Lords, we may express, as we feel, great grief for the loss we have sustained, added as it has been to the loss Of so many other considerable men connected with the service of India, whose counsels we had reason to hope that we
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might for many years have enjoyed; we acknowledge his merits, and it only remains for us to make such provision, as far as we can, for his noble widow—thai anxiety for the future may not increase the poignancy of the grief with which she must ever look back upon the memory of the glorious and happy past.
THE EARL OF DERBY: My Lords, although it is not my intention to detain your Lordship, by entering into any detail of the eminent services of Lord Elgin, which have been dwelt on most properly by the Lord President of the Council and by the noble Earl near me, I cannot deny myself the gratification at least of paying to his memory, in a very few words, the high tribute of public respect and personal regard which is due to so eminent a public servant. My official connection with Lord Elgin began at the very commencement of his official career. Since the time when he quitted Jamaica had no official communication with him; but, at the same time, knowing how admirably he had discharged his duties there, watched his subsequent career with unflagging interest; and have upon every occasion been happy to say, that that career has been distinguished by a combination of qualities most rarely met with in the same individual—the qualities of great decision, of great firmness, at the same time of great caution and great conciliation. Above all, Lord Elgin on every occasion showed us, as has been already said by the noble Earl, the, most admirable and entire disinterestedness, and the most absolute abnegation of self. His whole heart was in his work, and in his country's service. He considered' no personal sacrifice for a moment in competition with the great objects which he had to effect, and the great work in which he was engaged. It was impossible, upon an occasion of this kind, not to advert, as the noble Earl has done, to the mysterious dispensation of Providence by which, within the course of a very few years, the country has been deprived of the services of so many of those who had already attained to high political distinction, but who might naturally have looked forward to obtain still higher distinction, and whom the country might have expected to see adding to the services which they had performed and to the honours to which they had already attained. My Lords, the hopes which we might reasonably have entertained have in too many cases been destroyed, hut am convinced that the country will not forget the

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services of such men; and am sure that with the names of Dalhousie, of Canning, of Herbert and of Cornewall Lewis—I hope I may not have to add another name to the too long list of the honourable and distinguished men who have within a few years perished in the service of the State—that of Elgin will be honourably associated in the universal tribute which the country will pay to their meritorious services, and the deep regret which all must feel at the untimely disappearance of Bach men from among us. My Lords, need not add that cordially concur in the Motion of the noble Earl.
Address Ordered, Nemine Dissentiente, to be presented to Her Majesty, to return Her Majesty the thanks of this House for Her Majesty's most gracious Message informing this House,
"That Her Majesty, taking into consideration the distinguished Services performed throughout a long Series of Yars by the late James, Earl of Elgin and Kincardine, Her Majesty's Viceroy and Governor General of India, is desirous, in recognition of such Services, to confer some signal mark of Her Favour upon his Widow. Mary Louisa, Countess of Elgin and Kincardine;" and to assure Her Majesty that this House will cheerfully concur in such' Measures as May be necessary for securing to Mary Louisa, Countess of Elgin and Kincardine, a Pension of £1,000 a Year for her natural Life.—(The Lord President.)
And the said Address was Ordered to be presented to Her Majesty by the Lords with White Stares.

THE ASSIZE TOWN.

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  LORD WHARNCLIFFE, in calling attention to the late decision of the Privy Council for the removal of the West Riding Assizes from York to Leeds, and moving an Address to Her Majesty thereon, said that this decision was entirely opposed to the evidence submitted to them. In 1829 a Commission was appointed to consider the advisability of removing the Assizes for the West Riding from York, and, if so, to which town they should be removed; and the result of the inquiry was unconditionally in favour of Wakefield. In 1857 another Commission was appointed, and the decision arrived at was different from the one which had been adopted by the Privy Council. In 1860 a Commission was appointed at the suggestion of Sir G. C. Lewis, and out of 107 magistrates who were examined upon the matter 99 were opposed to any change. In 1863 by the
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  direction of Sir George Grey, a circular was sent to the magistrates of the West Biding of Yorkshire, and out of 329 magistrates answers were received from 266. The circular asked if the magistrates to whom it was addressed thought it desirable to remove the Assizes from York, and, if so, whether to Leeds or Wake-field, or to Leeds and Sheffield. The answers in favour of the last plan were so few that they might be entirely discarded, Of the remainder, 123 were in favour of retaining the Assizes at York, 87 in favour of a change to Wakefield, and 20 only approved the removal to Leeds. At the beginning of the present year a private circular was addressed to the magistrates of the West Riding, and 187 of those who replied were in favour, of Wakefield, and only 59 in favour of Leeds. He thought that the opinions of these gentlemen ought to be taken into consideration, as they came from men who took an interest in the subject, and whose opinions were dictated by experience. There were some other points to which he would call their Lordships' attention, as he believed them to be material to the question. The population of the West Riding in the immediate neighbourhood of Wakefield was over 900,000, while in the neighbourhood of Leeds it was only 623,000, thus showing an advantage of about 30 per cent in favour of Wakefield. Wakefield contained the county prison and almost all the other public offices, and it was of great importance that the Assizes should be held where these public buildings were to be found. Now, against all the public buildings of Wakefield, Leeds had nothing to urge but the presence of the Bankruptcy Court. If the Assizes were held at Leeds and the West Riding gaol remained at Wakefield as there was a distance of ten miles between the two towns, the prisoners would have to be conveyed by train in the morning and taken back in the evening until their cases had been decided, and these journeys would not unfrequently occur daily for an entire week. The country near Leeds was densely populated, the population being chiefly of an artisan character, and they might safely anticipate serious inconvenience from the necessity of carrying prisoners forward and back, especially in times of political riots or tumults; and in this opinion the governor of the gaol at Wakefield fully concurred. It was estimated that the expense consequent upon those frequent removals would amount to

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  £150 an assize, and as there were three Assizes held in the course of the year, the Biding would be called upon to pay £450 because of the decision of the Privy Council. After giving the question a full consideration, he could not conceive on what grounds the Privy Council had come to a decision so opposed to that of all those whose experience Upon the subject entitled their opinions to respect. Wakefield was looked upon ad: the capital of the West Riding and if the Assizes were to be removed from York, a large majority of the magistrates were in favour of its selection in preference to Leeds; When they were told that the decision was to rest with the Privy Council, they did not anticipate that Yorkshire would be little represented the noble Earl the Secretary for War (Earl de Grey and Ripon), being the only Yorkshire Peer who was on the Committee of Privy Council by, which the decision was arrived at Every other Peer in Yorkshire was in favour of Wakefield. Under those circumstances he hoped that their Lordships would perceive that there were; good grounds of complaint against the decision which had been arrived at, and would give their support to the Motion.
  Moved,
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the late Decision of the Privy Council, ordering the Removal of the West Riding Assizes from York to Leeds instead of to Wakefield, be re-considered.—(Lord Wharncliffe).
  LORD HOUGHTONsaid, he had not been able to refuse the request of the noble Lord to give his support to this Motion. Upon this question, he, believed that the gentry of Yorkshire were so united, and their opinions were so well formed, that he could not understand what possible motives could have induced the Government to issue an Order in Council which was in entire opposition to their wishes and their supposed, interests. He trusted that it would not be supposed that in opposing the transference of the Assizes from York to Leads the gentry of Yorkshire were, influenced by personal feelings. They were ready to perform their public duties what-ever place might be selected. It was impossible to understand why the Government had made repeated requests to the magistrates for their opinions, when, at last they had acted in direct opposition to those opinions. A large majority of the magistrates of Yorkshire had decided that they were quite content with York as the assize town, and there could be no doubt that the cen-
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  tral position of that city and other circum stances rendered it well adapted for the; administration of justice. It was true, however, that as the West Riding was more populous than the other Ridings, a considerable expense was incurred in bringing witnesses and. prisoners to York; but: if consideration of economy were to be permitted to override all other considerations, then assuredly the natural course would have been to remove the administration of justice to the place where justice could be most cheaply administered—to, the capital of the West Riding. At Wakefield there was a very large prison; it was a town of moderate size, and was singularly well adapted for an assize town; Instead of going to Wakefield, however, the Government had thought fit to transfer the Assizes to a town, with a large manufacturing population. The mere fact of Leeds being a larger town than York or Wakefield was no recommendation—if, indeed, its size ought not rather to operate against its selection. He thought their Lordships would do well to induce the Government; to reconsider, their determination, which was so much opposed to the general feeling of Yorkshire. He did not think the opinion of the magistracy of the county should be disregarded. He would -submit that this was not a time to cast discouragement upon the magisterial station, so as to prevent younger men from accepting, its duties and its responsibilities. It was the duty of Parliament, wherever it had an opportunity, to sustain the magisterial dignity, and he, therefore, felt confident that their Lordships would-give their support to this Motion.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he felt bound, in the first place, to thank the noble Lord who introduced the subject for his, singularly clear and able statement, and he hoped that in future they might frequently have the advantage of the noble Lord's, participation in their debates. The Complaints of the noble Lord referred to three points; first as to the removal of the Assizes from York; next to the selection of Leeds in preference to Wakefield; and, lastly, to a point which more immediately, affected himself, and with which he would first deal Their Lordships were, aware that Her Majesty was empowered by Act of Parliament with that advice of her Privy Council, to make division and arrangement as to holding Assizes at particular times. The question as to which particular town should be selected had

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  been raised in the House of Commons, and the claims of Wakefield in preference to Leeds had been negatived; and after that the Privy Council had been called upon to deal with the subject. It would have been improper to delay bringing this subject below Her Majesty merely on the chance that their Lordships' House would express some opinion upon it. He might remind his noble Friend that it bad been quite open to him to moot this question at an earlier period, seeing that the decision of the House of Commons was pronounced some weeks since. With respect to the removal of the Assizes from York, the noble Lord had referred to the adverse opinions pronounced by two former Commissions. With respect to the first of these Commissions, he could only observe that it was impossible to attach much value to the Report of a Commission Blade forty years ago, when the circumstances of the country were wholly different—when no railways were in operation, and when no data existed applicable to the present times. With respect to the second Commission, its conclusions were no doubt entitled to full consideration; bat it must be borne in mind that there did not exist at that time the same strong feeling as now prevailed that the Assizes should be transferred. The noble Lord had referred to the opinions expressed by the Magistrates of Yorkshire, and he could assure the noble Lord that those opinions had received full and careful consideration; but the Privy Council had not felt themselves to be bound by those opinions as to the nature of the advice which they should tender to Her Majesty. The noble Lord had referred to the delicate question of the selection of Leeds, instead of Wake-field; and he asked what were the motives which had induced Her Majesty's Government to make such a selection? All he could say was that Her Majesty's Government had no motive whatever except this— when once they bad made up their minds that the West Riding was entitled to an assize town, to select that town which they thought the best situated for the purpose. It should be borne in mind that when it was proposed to make Liverpool an assize town there was the same opposition on the part of the magistrates of Lancashire, His noble Friend should remember that Wakefield and Leeds were not the only candidates—Sheffield had put in claim—and in selecting Leeds instead of Wakefield the only motive the Govern-
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  ment could have was the public advantage. He might appeal to his noble Friends who sat on the Committee, whether they, were not of opinion that the balance of advantage was on the side of Leeds The noble Lord had referred to the petitions in favour of Wakefield; but he was aware that these had been strongly criticised on the other side, and the argument turned entirely in favour of Leeds. With regard to the accommodation of the two towns, the evidence went to this extent—the accommodation at Leeds was ample and excellent, whereas there was no accommodation at Wakefield for assize business. The decision was very much influenced by, that consideration. He did act know whether the noble Lord intended to press his Motion to a division; if so, he should have to oppose it. He did not think it could lead to any practical result.
  LORD WENSLEYDALEaddressed some remarks to the House, but the noble and learned Lord was, not heard.
  LORD BROUGHAMsaid, he remembered far the last fifty or sixty years to have heard this subject frequently discussed by members of the profession and the public; and he certainly recollected that whilst the preponderance of opinion was strong amongst both learned and unlearned against any removal from York at all, yet if there were to be any assize town at all, the almost universal feeling was in favour of Leeds. Some few persons were in favour of Wakefield, hardly any were in favour of Sheffield, and there were none at all who were in favour of Hull.
  LORD FAVERSHAMprotested against the statement of the noble and learned Lord who had just spoken. When he had the honour of representing Yorkshire, between thirty and forty years ago, the question of the removal of the Assizes from York was largely discussed; and in the coarse of his canvass he was frequently asked whether he would support Wake-field as the assize town for the West Riding, but he had never heard the town of Leeds put before Wakefield. To remove the Assizes from York would be an act of gross injustice—an act opposed by the great majority of the county magistrates, and calculated to subject the population generally to grievous inconvenience. Some time ago he took the liberty of asking whether the Government intended to persist in their determination to convert Leeda into an assize town to the prejudice of York; but he was sorry to say that the

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  President of the Council, with Some slight discourtesy, did not favour him with an answer to his question. He did not wish to impute, motives, but he knew the influence which had been, at work. Leeds had been written up by one of its representatives, whom he now saw standing at the bar. ["Order!".] And he did not intend to impute any motives but a sense of public, duty to that gentleman; but he had worked long and zealously at the matter, and it was no doubt through, big influence that the Government had been brought to countenance a measure for which no valid reason could be urged.
  EARL DE GREY AND RIPONsaid, the noble Lord (Lord Faversham) had referred to his canvass of the county in 1826; hut he trusted their Lordships would not decide a question of this kind on a consideration of the state of things which existed between: thirty and forty years ago. One of the questions raised in connection with this subject was whether a separate Assize should be given to the West Riding of Yorkshire, and a large portion of the opposition to the decision of the Privy Council sprung from, those who desired to have no transfer of assizes at all from York, He (Earl De Grey and Ripon) sympathized with the, feelings which actuated them; because, in the first place, in favour of the retention of the Assizes at York there were obvious considerations of personal convenience and comfort which, if great public interests were hot concerned, it would be undesirable to overlook; and because, in the next place, the sentiments were very natural of those who looked upon the Assizes as the last link which bound the three Ridings together—for the Assizes, and the High Sheriff were all that remained of the united county. But it was not upon considerations of this nature that the Privy, Council could decide the question. They had to consider the amount of population and the amount of business to be done. The population of the, West Riding was one million and a half, or scarcely less than the population of the whole of Lancashire, which would have three assize towns — Lancaster, Liverpool, and the newly created Assizes at Manchester. It seemed impossible, with this state of things, to resist the claim of the West Riding to have a separate Assize. Accordingly, the Privy Council decided that a separate Assize should be given to the West Riditig. The: question then, to be raised was, to what town these Assizes
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  were to be given. It is said that the opinion of the Privy Council in favour of Leeds was against the opinion of the majority of the magistrates; but then the majority of the magistrates was against having a separate Assize at all. He knew from his own observation that; there was a widespread feeling among the mercantile and manufacturing classes in the West Riding in favour of having justice brought nearer to them, and although, as had been said, a majority of the county magistrates were against the removal of the assizes from York, yet of those who thought otherwise by far the larger number preferred Leeds to Wakefield. Since then the Government had decided to have a separate Assize for the West Riding, they must consider how best their wishes to consult the convenience of the population were to be acted upon. Their object was to bring the Assizes to the bulk of the population. Their Lordships had been told that the population in and around. Leeds was less than that in and around Wakefield. Statistics prepared by rival parties were necessarily of a very doubtful character, but it was only fair to mention that the statement on the other side was precisely the contrary, and that the Privy Council arrived at their decision; with the fact before them, that the population of Wakefield was only 23,000, as against 207,000 at Leeds. It had been pointed out by Mr. Reeves that sufficient accommodation did not exist at Wakefield, and if the Assizes were taken there it would be necessary to build a new court, whereas at Leeds the present courts were amply sufficient. With; regard to railway, accommodation, the communication by rail was more direct and speedy with Leeds; front the various parts, of the Riding than it was with Wakefield There was another point —that, if, the Assizes were removed to Wakefield it would bar for all time the claim of Sheffield on account of the, proximity of Wakefield to that town, whilst Leeds was so far away that if the Assizes were removed to that town Sheffield-would not be prejudiced by the decision. He had understood and heard the learned Lord (Lord Wensleydale) — whom, however, he had heard very indistinetly—to say that it was very undesirable to hold Assizes in large towns; but all modern changes had been in that direction—for instance, appointing Assizes to be held at Liverpool, Manchester, and Newcastle; so that the Committee of Council could not be charged with having established a new

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  principle. The question was, no doubt, one on which much could be said oft both sides; but on the whole, he believed that the Committee bad adopted the arrangement which was best for the cheap sad speedy administration of justice.
  THE EARL OF DERBY: My Lords, I am not a Yorkshireman, and although I have come physical knowledge of the locality in question, yet I know nothing of the merits of this case except from an examination of those papers which have been kid before the House. agree with the noble Earl who has just tat down (Earl de Grey and Ripon), that this question ought not to be decided by reference to the state of opinion that existed thirty-eight years ago; and still more, think, that we ought not to be guided by the state of feeling which existed fifty or sixty years ago, and to which the noble arid learned Lord (Lord Brougham) referred. But let us consider what has been the state of feeling for the last few years; and think it is quite impossible to deny the fact, that the great balance of opinion on the part of the Commissioners who were appointed to inquire into the subject, on the part of the Magistrates who are interested in the administration of justice, and a great proportion of the inhabitants of the county, and also on the pan of the surveyor who was sent down by the Government specially to report upon the matter, was strongly in favour of the Assizes being held at Wakefield. The noble Earl who has just sat down has expended a good deal of time upon the question whether the local magistrates were or not in favour of removing the Assizes from York; and it my well be admitted that a great majority were in favour of retaining the Assizes at that place; but it being decided to remove them from York, and that the West Riding should have Assizes of its own, the question arose whether those gentlemen were of opinion that the Assizes should be removed to Wakefield, Leeds, or Sheffield, as the most convenient place? As to Sheffield there were to few in favour of it that it may be put out of the question; and as between Wakefield and Leeds, the majority in favour of Wakefield was 187 to 59, So far, therefore, as the opinion of the magistrates is to be taken for guidance, there is a very strong preponderance of feeing against Leeds. Although, as stated by the President of the Council, the Act of Parliament does not require the Council to consult the magistrates, yet, on the other hand, they
  1622
  are required to make such arrangements as, in their opinion, are most conducive to the convenient administration of justice; and know be persons who could-form a more satisfactory judgment upon that subject than could the local magistrate who are mainly concerned in carrying out the administration of public justice. The original Commission undoubtedly reported in favour of retaining the Assizes at York; but, presuming a change, not a single individual on that Commission reported in favour of Leeds, whilst a large number were in favour of Wakafield. Then, you had the Lords Lieutenant of two Ridings, and the Vice Lieutenants of three, all in favour of Wakefield; thus coinciding with the great majority of the magistrates. Mr. Reeves, the surveyor who was sent down, it is true, reported that the accommodation for holding Assizes at Leeds was superior to that at Wakefield; but, on the other hand, he pointed out that the gaol accommodation at Wakefield was infinitely superior to that at Leeds; go that in one case it would be necessary to build an additional court, whilst in the other it would be necessary to add greatly to the gaol. Mr. Reeves reported that, looking to all the circumstances of the locality and the convenience of the great majority of the population, he was decidedly in favour of Leeds. In the face of Mr. Reeves's report, it certainly required considerable courage on the part of the noble Earl the Secretary for War to quote Mr. Reeves aft a witness against Wakefield. There is only one consideration that induces me to hesitate as to the course which should recommend my noble Friend (Lord Wharncliffe) to take. If the matter were resintegra, should not hesitate for a moment to advise him to press his motion to a division. As to the merits of the case, have no doubt at all that they are strongly in favour of Wakefield; but the question which raises doubts in my mind is, that some difficulty might occur in consequence of the House of Commons having, by a small majority, expressed an opposite opinion to that embodied in this Motion. But that was done in the absence of those papers which are now before your Lordships. Then we have been given to understand by the now Earl the Lord President of the Council, very (decidedly, though hardly with any great courtesy, that whatever we do will not Meet the decision which has been come to —that the decision is final; and though we may address the

  1623
  Crown, yet it rests with the Ministers to advise the crown, and consequently it is a matter of discretion on the part of my noble Friend whether he should go to a division; but still if he should decide on going to a division. I must record my vote in favour of his Motion. But at the same time I would suggest whether it might not he wise not to divided considering the inconvenience which might not he wise not to dived considering the inconvenience which might arise from the two Houses of parliament expressing different opinions and whether your Lordships would do well to send up an address to the Crown when you have a positive intimation on the part of the leading Minister in this Houses that the Crown will not assent to your recommendation. I leave this matter, however, entirely in the hands of my noble Friend; and as I said before, If he divide, I shall, thought with some hesitation, divided with him; but I think that it is a question upon which he would do well to reflect before he calls upon the House to divide.
  LORD WHARNCLIFFEsaid, that standing there as he did in this case as the representative of the West Riding, he could not abandon its interests and he should therefore take the sense of the House on his Motion.
  LORD CRANWORTH, as one of these who were asked to advise the committee of council, said, that he must observe that he knew of no motive which influenced the decision arrived at, except such as were apparent upon the papers. No doubt the opinion of the magistrates in favour of Wakefield had great weight, so far as the criminal business was concerned; but the evidence showed that mote than four civil causes to one arose in and near Leeds as compared with Wakefield. This latter consideration naturally had very great weight with the Privy Council.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that he had no interest, and that he had shown no partiality in the matter, and he could assure their Lordships that, in arriving at the decision to which they had come, the Privy Council had not been biased by any consideration other than those which were apparent on the papers. He must, how ever, earnestly deprecate the course which was about to be prused by the noble Lord; and he begged him to reflect on the position of conflict with the Houses of —a position of conflict with the to recollect Commons. He begged him to recollect also the position in which he would place
  1624
  the Crown, The. Crown had already, received the opinion of the other Houses, and that opinion was in favour of the decision arrived at by the Privy Council. Encouragement had already been given to the people of Leeds to prepare for the removal of the Assizes to their town; and now that they had laid out money for the purpose of making the necessary arrangement common justice forbade that the decision of the Crown should be reversed. What answer could the Crown should be reversed. What answer could the Crown make to the people of Leeds? Was the crown to say "we preferred the Address of the House of Lords to that of the Commons?"
  THE EARL OF DERBYobserved that the House of Commons had sent up no Address.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The noble Earl was perfectly right —there had been no Address; but the House of commons had expressed its opinion. He earnestly hoped there would be no division; but if there was, he appealed to their Lordships not to put the Crown in the predicament in which they would place it if they agreed to the Motion.
  On Question, their Lordships divided:— Contents 80; Not-Contents 54: Majority 26.
  Motion agreed to.
  And the said Address to be Presented to Her Majesty by the Lords with White Staves.

  CONTENTS.

  York, Archbp.

  Malmesbury, E.

  Mayo. E.

  Manchester, D.

  Morton, E

  Richmond, D.

  Nelson, E.:

  Rutland, D.

  Powis, E.

  Romney, E.

  Bath. M.

  Rosslyn. E.

  Normanby, M.

  Sandwich, E.

  Salisbury, M.

  Shrewsbury, E.

  Stanhope, E.

  Amherst, E.

  Tankerville, E.

  Bandon, E.

  Wilton, E.

  Bantry, E.

  Zetland, E.

  Carnarvon, E.

  Cawder, E.

  De Vesei, V.

  Chesterfield, E.

  Hardinge, V.

  De La Warr, E.

  Hawarden, V.

  Derby, E.

  Melville, V.

  Doncaster, E. (D. Buccleuch and Queensberry)

  Sidmouth, V.

  Oxford, Bp.

  Effingham, E

  Erne, E.

  Abinger, L

  Fitzwilliam, E.

  Bagot, L.

  Graham, E. (D. Montrose).

  Blayney, L.

  Bolton, L

  Grey, E.

  Castlemaine, L.

  Harewood, E.

  Churston, L.

  Lucan, E.

  Clinton, L.

  1625

  Colchester, L.

  Polwarth, L.

  Colville of culross, L.

  Ravensworth, L.

  Crewe, L.

  Redendale, L.

  De Marfley, L.

  Silchester L. (E. Longford).

  De Ros, L.

  De Saumarez, L.

  Somerhill, L.(M. chanricarde).

  Digby, L.

  Dansany, L.

  Sondes, L.

  Egerton, L.

  Stewart of Garlies, L.(E. Galloway).

  Foversham, L.

  Heytesbury, L.

  Templemore, L.

  Houghton, L. [Teller]

  Thurlow, L.

  Houghton, L.

  Tyrone, L.(M. Waterford).

  Leigh, E.

  Lyttelton, L.

  Wenlock, L,

  Moore, L. (M. Dregheda).

  Wensleydale, L.

  Wharncliffe, L.[Teller.]

  Mostyn, L.

  Wynford, L.

  NON-CONTENTS.

  Westbury, L. (L. Chancellor).

  Clandeboye, L,(L, Dufferin and claneboye)

  Conyers, L.

  Armagh, Archbp.

  Cranworth, L.

  Dacre, L.

  Saint Albans, D.

  Dartrey, L. (L. cremorne).

  Somerset, D.

  De Tabley, L.

  Ailesbury, M.

  Ebury, L.

  Foley, L.[Teller.]

  Chichester, E.

  Harris, L.

  Clarendon, E.

  Hathenten, L.

  De Grey, E.

  Hunsdon, L. (V. Falkland).

  Ducle, E.

  Lismere, L. (V. Lismore).

  Harrowby, E.

  Lichfield, E.

  Llanover, L.

  Minto, E.

  Methuen, L.

  Russell, E,

  Overstone, L.

  Saint Germans, E.

  Ponson by, L. (E. Bessborough).

  Shaftesbury, E.

  Spencer, E.

  Portman, L,

  Rossie, L. (L. Kinnaird).

  Leinster, V. (D. Leinster).

  Seymour, L. (E. St. Maur).

  Stratford de Redcliffe, V.

  Sydney, V.

  Stanley of Alderley, L.

  Suffield, L.

  Cork, &c., Bp.

  Sundridge, L. (D. Argull)

  Down, &c., Bp.

  London, Bp.

  Talbot de Malahide, L.

  Taunton, L.

  Belper, L.

  Wentworth, L. (V. Ockham).

  Brougham and Vaux, L.

  Camoys, L. [Teller.]

  Wodehouse, L.

  Chesham, L.

  Wrottesley, L.

PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL—(No. 100.)

  COMMITTEE,
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, am very reluctant to trespass upon year attention, but a very eminent member of the University of Oxford feels considerable annoyance at the somewhat unwarrantable manner in which his name has been referred to in debate, and wished that some notice should be taken of it. I refer to
  1626
  The Dean of Christ Church. A noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Montrose) Stated the other evening that the evidence of the Dean of Christ of Church was not worth much, considering that everybody knew that no young men went up to Christ Church for the purpose of reading or for the purpose of obtaining honours. Now, if your Lordships turn to the Dean's evidence, you will see that it was not applied to all the boys who go up for matriculation, but only to the average boys; and his opinions respecting their attainments certainly do not stand alone, for they are supported by other witnesses of undoubted competency. The Rev. D. P. chase, Principal of St. Mary Hall, Said,—
  "In my, opinion, the previous education given to the mass of those who enter the university does not fulfil sacisfacatorily the purpose of grounding in the classical studies which they are required to purpose. The result is that the minimum of attainment necessary for the B.A. degree is far below what it might and ought to be, while the difficulty which the majority of the passmen have in producing even that minimum necessarily restricts and narrows the course. Much of the teaching given at the University is such as ought to have been given at school This, while it tends to weary and disgust those who have been better taught, precludes any higher teaching of those who must be kept to schoolboy work.… Consequently for matriculation, it is usual to examine candidates only in authors which they have got up for the purpose, The answers to easy grammatical papers are commonly very imperfect; the Lathin prose composition rarely such as would be accepted even at responsions (little go). Deficiency in arithmatic Euclid, and algebra frequently causes postponement of admission, and in most cases necessitates very elementary teaching afterwards."
  The Rev. G. W. Kitchin, Junior Censor of Christ Church, said —
  "The average men bring up but small results of the training to which they have been subjected for year. These is a general want of accuracy in their work; even the rudimentary knowledge of grammar and Latin prose writing is far less than it ought to be. I fear that the elementary schools send the little boys up to the public schools in a very unprepared state, and that the public schools, to a great extent, assume that the boys are fairly grounded when it is not the case. The only subject which are professed at; school, and do not form part of oar system of work, are such rudimentary matters as English composition spelling arithmetic, &c. In these there seems to, be considerable deficiency. The University course of teaching is much hampered by the necessity of supplementing the shortoomings of school education. Our system becomes for average men, both narrow and vague. We feel that the most we can do for men who come up deficient in knowledge of grammer, history, languages, &c., is to

  1627
  Provide something fro them to do; the time for real progress seems, in many cases, to be absolutely past."
  Again, he says—
  "With a matriculation examination whose standard is, very low and solely intended to prove that men have n fair chance of afterwards passing response, and with every wish to admit men, we have still been obliged this year to reject about one-third of the whole number who have presented themselves.;… As to average men, their exact knowledge of grammar, &c., is now, tested by us, whereas a few years ago it was almost taken for granted, "This makes me different in expressing an opinion about its improvement or decay. On the whole, I am inclined to think it has gone backwards, for can easily imagine it better; if would be hard to conceive it much worse."
  I think this shows that the Dean of Christ Church is not alone in the evidence he gave. With regard to the charge that nobody ever heard of young men going to Christ Church with any intention of reading, the last list of Oxford-University shows, as am informed, that out of five first-classes in mathematics two are front Christ Church. In the present year Christ Church men have also gained the Ireland University Scholarship, the Junior Mathematical Scholarship, and the Oriel Fellowship; and at the end of least week another Christ Church man won the Senior Hebrew Scholarship against very good competitors. That makes three University Scholarships gained this year. Taking the years 1861, 1862, 1863. the period comprised in the last University Calendar, they reckon a Radcliffe Travelling Fellowships, a Stanhope prize for Greek prose; in the Moderation School, nine first classes and fourteen seconds in the final classical schools, three first classes and four seconds, But there is another school which has great attractions for the class of young men who are most numerous at Christ Church— the School of Law and Modern History. Last November, out of five first class men, three were from Christ Church; and two out of five second-class men. Since the present lecturer Mr. Owen, was appointed, three years ago, there have been twenty candidates for honours in that school. Of these five obtained a first-class, ten a second, and five a third; so that not one fell below a third. Since the first establishment of the school in 1853, Christ Church has had seventeen first-class men, twenty second, and thirteen third Lately, I am informed, the University has relaxed its requirements in classics a little, so that
  1628
  the young men will be able to given more time to these studies; and they are doing so. The examinations; are becoming harder, and yet the number of candidates for honours is increasing. There are instances which are of interest to your Lordships. The noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Carnarvon). himself got a first-class in this school; so did Lord Lothian and Lord Cowper. Lately Mr. Abbott, Lord-Colchester's son, got, a first class in this school, after having gained another first in classics and the Stanhope prize; and hope al some very distant date he will in this House display the business like habits which have always distinguished his father here. Lord Kenyon's' son has just got a second-class, and it has been stated that many of his papers were up to the mark of a first-class. My noble Friend (Lord Wodehouse) has been so long among us that I think it hardly necessary to allude to the distinctions which he gained. This list will make good the conclusion, that' if no young man whatever came to read, the tutors and lecturers must hare a marvellous power of; overcoming the vis inertioe of a large number of these resolute dunces. It appears that at the present moment there are sixty or seventy young men at Christ Church reading, for honours of one kind or another.
  Moved. That the House do now resolve itself into a Committee on the said Bill.
  LORD RAVENS WORTHsaid he had felt much pain when these remarks were made upon the evidence: of the, Dean of Christ Church, who was his near relation, because, not haying read the Dean's evidence, he was unable from want of proper information to notice those observations at the time. The Lord President of the Council had attempted to justify, and perhaps succeeded in justifying, the evidence by bringing forward other, statements of a still stronger nature as to the incompetence of boys sent up to Oxford from the public schools. But, as the remarks made the other evening had a tendency to cast blame upon the Dean, it was important to know what the evidence given by him before the Royal Commissioners really amounted to. His noble and gallant Friend (Lord De Ros) had spoken with high praise of the general character and conduct, of Eton boys; and, he entirely concurred in, what his noble and gallant Friend, had said upon this subject, and upon the great merits of that establishment. But it seemed to be

  1629
  assumed from the evidence of the Dean of Christ of Church, that Eton boys spent their Sundays in public-houses, in smoking and drinking, and in wandering about the fields, not unfrequently in a state of intoxication; that; they were not instructed in the Scriptures; that they went up to matriculation entirely ignorant, and showed a disinclination to be further instructed. How having greasy to thank his parents fur having teat him to Eton, and to the masters who taught him there, it would have given him great distress if any such evidence had Seen give by a man bearing his name. But, on turning to the blue-book, be found not one particle of evidence in the course of the Dean's examination which in any respect bore out these charges, and they must therefore be founded upon statements emanating from some other quarter. As to the scholarship of these who came up for matriculation from Eton and Harrow, if the Dean of Christ Church found from his own experience that these young men were ill grounded, and that they could scarcely pint into decent Latin any exercise submitted to them, he was perfectly justified in stating those facts. The Dean of Christ Church bad stated in his evidence that he thought the out-of-door occupations and the amusements of boys in large public schools offered greater temptations to the neglect of study than those to which boys in smaller schools were exposed. The Dean of Christ Church was certainly correct in his statement to a certain extent; but he might have so far qualified the inference which he had drawn as to bear in mind that those temptations existed only during the summer months, when She days were long and the weather fine, when there were the attractions of cricket matches in the hay fields and boat races on the river. But during the other periods of the year the boys attended to their studies as diligently as at other schools. He had intended to dwelt at some length upon the general question, but as there stilt remained so much business before their Lordships he should be content with referring to the evidence of his learned and accomplished relative the Dean of church church.
  THE DUKE OF MONTROSEsaid, he was glad the noble Earl had had the opportunity of getting him tight. He was sorry that, in the hurry of debate, he had made use of expressions that were too strong with reference to the evidence of the Dean of Christ Church. What he had intended to say was, that the expressions
  1630
  made use of by the Dean of Christ Church had given considerable annoyance to the authorities at Eton, because they believed that the opinions of that gentleman were not put in a manner which would give a correct impression. After saying that Eton and Westminster had not of late taken as many prize as formerly, Rugby and Marlborough having been very successful, Mr. Sandford, Senior Censor of Christ Church, went on to say—
  "It must, however, be remembered that Eton has difficulties to contend with from which the other schools are free. The, parents of the boys are richer; their sons have not their fortunes to make. In fact, it has the same difficulties to cope with as we have at Christ Church. It may be said that eldest sons come to Christ Church, and younger: sons go to other Colleges, The boys at the other schools, on the contrary, know that if they are to succeed they must work. The, real advantage derived from Eton is less intellectual than social education. Eton is expected to make a boy a gentleman, and this expectation it fulfils. It may be added, that many boys are sent to Eton not to learn, but to form connections. We do not, however, get the élite from Eton or Harrow. Christ Church has the é lite from Westminster."
  The Rev. G. Kitchin, Junior Censor of Christ Church, said—
  "I resigned my tutorship in 1855 and returned in 1862, and have had the opportunity of observing the state of the same class of men after an interval of seven years. They are decidedly improved, and show the effect of the great step which has been taken forward by the schools. Athletics have exerted a salutary influence on their moral condition, though there is, especially on the part of the public school men, a tendency to concentrate on sports and amusements that energy which ought to be given to work."
  Dr. Liddell said, that Christ Church did not get the élite of Eton, as they mostly went to Cambridge. The success of Etonians at Cambridge was very creditable Only last year, out of fifteen King's College men in the Classical Tripos six were Etonians, and they were all in the first class. At Oxford, in 1863, Etonians not at Christ Church carried off a scholarship at Trinity, University, Lincoln, and Corpus; white at Cambridge two Etonians obtained scholarships. The success of Etonians at Cambridge did not bear out the statement that classics only were taught at Eton. What he did say on a former occasion was, that a great number of young men do not go to Christ Church for the pin-pose of reading, bat simply to pass away some years of their life. He would state what had been done at Christ Church since the present Dean had occupied that office. From 1856 to 1863 there were only four first-class men in classical

  1631
  honours at Christ Church, and of those four two were Etonians. During the same period there were thirty-one first-class men in classical honours at Balliol, of whom seven were Etonians. That fact showed that Eton did bring forward some scholars, and also that his statement with regard to Christ Church was not so unfounded as was supposed. He could not but admit that great improvement had taken place at Eton, arid that there were many excellent scholars educated there. The instruction in geography and mathematics had made great progress, but he believed that French could with advantage be incorporated as a portion of the system of education.
  THE EARL OF MALMESBURYsaid, he must attribute a certain want of discretion to the Commissioners in furnishing evidence which he thought ought not to have been published at all. They might have impressed on the country the necessity of reform of the great public schools, without going into those details. When the Duke of Wellington had won the battle of Waterloo he would not go into the question of trivial charges against a few young officers—and depend upon it he (Lord Malmesbury) was not taking a view which would not he borne out, when he said that the Commissioners had laid the ground of every sort of hostile criticism by foreign writers on the educated classes of this country and the schools at which they were brought up. He had read the Report and the evidence with an unbiassed mind, and if the statements made were true, it was most humiliating not only to those who sent their sons there, but to the whole nation. But were they true? With all respect to the Commissioners he must say he had great doubt as to whether they were true, he was at Eton, and he declared positively that it must be extremely altered, nay entirely changed, from what it was if these allegations were well founded. Among other things, the Commissioners recommended the teaching of drawing. That was quite right; but from that it might be supposed that drawing had not been taught there previously; whereas in his time a master was employed for that purpose, who was the celebrated Mr. Evans. It was intimated by the Commissioners that there was a supine state of mind on the part of the boys. All he could say was that a very different state of things prevailed from what had existed formerly, when a magazine called The
  1632
  Etonian was published, to which Win-throp Praed was a contributor, and which Contained contributions which, when he reverted to them now, he must pronounce to be of a very high class. The only consolation 'he had on looking at this evidence was that he really could not believe it.
  THE EARL OF CLARENDONwould only say a word in answer to the attack the noble Earl had thought proper to make upon the Commissioners. The noble Earl was quite unmindful of what the Commissioners had been appointed for, of their duties, and their responsibilities. Because they had taken evidence which it was their duty to take, and which was unpalatable, and because they had not garbled it, they were to be called indiscreet!
  THE EARL OF MALMESBURY: I did not say you should have garbled it, but that you should have used discretion as to what you printed.
  THE EARL OF CLARENDONsaid, the noble Earl had only expressed in other words, and with greater circumlocution, the phrase he had himself employed. The noble Earl said that, having taken evidence which it was their duty to take, they should have altered or suppressed it—and this he would have had them do, as gentlemen, as honest men, and as men responsible to the; public, in order that foreigners might think better of us that we deserved. No such feeling animated him or any of his colleagues, and he should have been ashamed of himself if he had obtained the noble Earl's approbation by any such course as he had suggested. It was the duty of the masters at Eton and other schools to, answer the questions of the Commissioners as to the education and morality, and the general conduct of their scholars. They all answered the questions honestly, and said that there were exceptions as to morality, and that some did go to public-houses to drink. From the tutors at Oxford the Commissioners received concurrent testimony as to the ill-preparation of the boys sent up, numbers being sent back upon matriculation. Yet all those facts were to be suppressed to make foreigners think better of us. than we merited ! The Commissioners would have neglected their duty if they had omitted to publish facts which would tend to bring to bear that pressure of public opinion by means of which alone a reform of our public schools could be brought about. However humiliating might be the facts stated, they were true. The noble Earl had referred

  1633
  to the conduct of the Duke of Wellington after, the battle of Waterloo; but then the Duke' had won the battle, while what the Commissioners had to do was to win the battle of school reform. The noble Earl, who had perhaps read half a dozen pages of, the Report, said he did, not believe the statements, but the Commissioners who hail given their most careful attention to the whole subject did believe them.
  LORD DE ROSsaid a few words, which were inaudible.
  LORD REDESDALEexpressed a doubt whether there were a sufficient number of masters at Eton, looking to the number of boys in the different classes. The point had not been referred to in the debate, but he hoped it would receive consideration.
  THE EARL OF POWIScontravened the statement that many of those who went up to Oxford from Eton, and who were likely to inherit fortunes, did not put themselves forward for honours, and appealed to the evidence of the class lists to the contrary.
  Motion agreed to: House in Committee accordingly: Amendments made: The Report thereof to be received To-morrow; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 128.)
  House adjourned at half past Eight, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock,