Lords Sitting of 14 July 1864

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading— Trespass (Ireland)* (No. 202).
Second Reading—Railways (Ireland)Acts Amendment* (No. 178); Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland)* (No. 189).
Committee—Factory Acts Extension (No. 176); Indemnity * (No. 197); India Stocks Transfer Act Amendment* (No. 195); Defence Act Amendment* (No. 193).
Report — Factory Acts Extension (No. 176); Indemnity* (No. 197); India Stocks Transfer Act Amendment* (No. 195); Defence Act Amendment* (No. 193).
Third Reading — Public and Refreshment Houses (No. 184); Civil Bill Courts (Ireland)* (No. 200); India Office * (No. 191).
Royal Assents— Union Assessment Committee Act Amendment [27 & 28 Vict. c. 39];
Coventry Free Grammar School [27 & 28 Vict. c. 41];
Superannuation (Union Officers) [27 & 28 Vict. c. 42];
Government Annuities, &c, [27 & 28 Vict. c. 43];
Divorce and Matrimonial Causes (Amendment) [27 & 28 Vict. c. 44];
Greek Loan [27 & 28 Vict. c. 40];
Settled Estates Act Amendment [27 & 28 Vict. c. 45];
Life Annuities and Life Assurances [27 & 28 Vict. c. 46].

OFFENCES IN RAILWAY CARRIAGES.

  QUESTION.
  LORD BROUGHAMhad been asked by his noble Friend (Earl Russell) to postpone the Jamaica Petition which stood for today, he therefore fixed it for Monday with the Cuba Slave Trade, of which he had given notice. He would put a question to his noble Friend (Earl Granville). From accidental circumstances he was in communication with a great number of persons and societies all over the country, and he had received numberless applications from persons, much alarmed by the late numerous offences in railway carriages. For himself he did not profess to feel alarm, because at his time of life it would be folly to feel much about a risk of what little remained of life being cut short which was so very soon to terminate. But there were thousands of persons looking forward to very long years, and of these hundreds passed many days on railways, and their alarm was great. They said that as railway companies had a monopoly and transcendental powers under Acts of Parliament, they were bound to expect legislative interference for the protection of the public. Therefore the right of making laws to control them was incontestable. There might be various opinions on the best protection, but he thought it clear that there ought to be no power given to those in the compartments to communicate with the driver, but a power should be given to communicate with the guard; and it seemed manifest that every railway should be made with boards or other means by which the guard could pass along when called by any passenger. This was constantly provided on the foreign railways, and might by a small cost be afforded on ours also. He wished to know of his noble Friend if any steps were about to be taken, or had been taken to effect this, or any other means to quiet the alarm the country felt so generally and so strongly?
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that as his noble and learned Friend had not given him notice of his Question, he had been unable to communicate with the Department more especially concerned. The subject, however, would be most carefully considered by Her Majesty's Government. Although on foreign railways there was generally a means by which the guard could communicate with the passengers, it was not always the case that the passengers could communicate with the guard.

PENAL SERVITUDE ACTS AMENDMENT BILL—(No. 136.)

  COMMONS' AMENDMENTS CONSIDERED.
  "Commons' Reasons for disagreeing to One of the Amendments made by the Lords, and Commons' Amendments to Lords' Amendment should be considered" (according to Order).
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYrose to move, That their Lordships should insist on their Amendments in Clause 4. The noble Earl said, that as the Bill originally came from the other House, the fourth clause provided that a convict holding a licence should within three days after his arrival in any place notify his arrival to the police authorities, and should thereafter report himself once in each month until his term had expired. Their Lordships had struck out the words requiring a monthly report, and had made some other Amendments in the clause; but the Commons had refused to agree to the omission of the words regarding the monthly report; and he now had to move that their Lordships should insist upon their Amendment. The Commons had sent up four or five Reasons for disagreeing to this Amendment, to which he would call their Lordships' attention. The first was simply the statement of the wish of the House of Commons—
  "That a monthly registration of the places of residence of all male licence holders should be systematic and regular."
  Against this their Lordships might place their desire to the contrary. There was some ambiguity about the expression "places of residence." If it was intended to apply to the actual domicile of the licence holder, all the time of one of these persons might be occupied in reporting his changes of residence to the police. They generally lived in common lodging-houses, adapting their residence to the situation of their work, and often changed their place of sleeping three or four times in a week. Upon the second Reason he need not make any observation. The third Reason was—
  "Because, if the said Amendment were agreed to, there would be no security that any holder of a licence would ever be required to make a periodical report of himself to the police in any way."
  But when their Lordships struck out the words "once in each month," they left in the regulation that within three days of his arrival in a police district the licence-holder should report to the chief constable, and that if he went from one district to another

  1441
  he should give notice both of his departure and arrival. For the fourth Reason—
  "Because, if any licence were issued containing such conditions as are referred to in trio said Amendment, such licence must be in a form different to that set forth in schedule A, and consequently no holder of such licence would be amenable to the penalties mentioned in the 5th and 8th clauses of the Bill."
  There was something more to be said, because he admitted that this Amendment was somewhat inconsistent with other parts of the Bill; but he entertained so strong an objection to this provision, which would most seriously interfere with the working of the present system of granting licences, that he should be prepared to meet almost any difficulty rather than allow it to become the law of the land. The fifth Reason—
  "Because the adoption of the said Amendment would seriously interfere with the working of the present system of registration and supervision of licence holders in Ireland"—
  inclined him to think that the House of Commons had been induced to vote for the restitution of those words under the impression that the Irish system had been incorporated in the Bill, and that by their Amendment their Lordships intended to prevent its forming part of the measure. Nothing, however, could be more distinct than the system which was to be established under this Bill and that which now-existed in Ireland. As a proof of the difference, he would refer to the circumstance that he had that morning received the first report of "the Inspector of Released Convicts in Dublin." The existence of such an officer itself constituted a most important difference between the two systems, which became still more apparent when regard was had to his duties, among the most important of which was to provide employment for men when they were discharged from intermediate prisons—thus relieving them from the great difficulty of finding work, which pressed so hardly upon them in this country—and to keep up a frequent correspondence with discharged prisoners. The Irish system provided for the man most minutely and carefully all those things which under this Bill he was to be called upon to provide for himself. The Bill did not make any provision for finding a man occupation, or rendering him any assistance in contending with the difficulties to which he would be exposed directly he came out of prison. All that it did was to require him to report himself to the police once a month, and thus to impose upon him the necessity of diselos-
  1442
  ing his condition, not only to the master who employed him, but also to the men among whom he worked. Since the debate on the subject had taken place in that House, he had instituted very minute and extensive inquiries on the point, and the conclusion at which he had arrived was that employers of labour were most unwilling to engage ticket-of-leave men, while they would, he believed, be still more unwilling to employ men who were forced to report themselves every month to the police. He had also ascertained that the working classes themselves objected to having those men incorporated in their body, and that the police were by no means the persons who were most adverse to them. It should, He might add, be borne in mind that the holding of a ticket-of-leave was an incentive to deception— such a man found it most difficult to obtain employment unless he concealed the fact of his condition — and that the evil of the system in that respect would be very much aggravated if a man were compelled month by month to deceive everybody except the police-constable to whom he made his report. The action of the police with regard to those men must not, he would further observe, be judged too harshly. A policeman saw a man employed in a confidential situation whom he knew to be a convicted thief; and if he took no notice of the circumstance, and the man committed a robbery, he was held responsible for having concealed the real state of things from his master; while if he were to act otherwise he would, no doubt be frequently the cause of having a man driven from employment who was disposed to earn an honest livelihood. So long as a ticket-of-leave man was able to lax his friends for his support he went on all right; but when he began to seek the means of earning a livelihood himself, then his difficulties commenced, and it was necessary that some consideration should be shown by the Legislature for the position in which he was placed. Those men as a class were naturally very excitable, and were disposed to look upon the whole world as opposed to them, and in despair to throw themselves back on their old associates. Their Lordships would see that there was a very considerable difference between a man who bad been convicted for the first time and one who had been convicted ten or a dozen times; and it was a very serious thing that a man who had offended once, and who was desirous of returning to the paths of

  1443
  honest industry, should be driven back by legislation to his evil courses, and perhaps made a hopeless criminal. Another objection to the provision to which he was referring was that the requiring this periodical report tended very much to bind the man to the place he went to immediately after liberation, and thus to keep them to their old haunts, which was most undesirable, inasmuch as they were thereby exposed to temptations which they found it impossible to overcome. Of those who came out of prison a large proportion, he might observe, were anxious to reform—a statement which was corroborated by the testimony of Mr. Organ among others, as well as by his own personal experience of the men, several of whom had told him that it was impossible to exaggerate the horrors of their life. A few years ago, for instance, he had received an application from a great number of thieves in London, who requested that he would meet them at a particular place. In compliance with that request, he went to the appointed spot, and there met 250 of those men, with whom he had a long conversation, and who begged of him to give them some advice as to the best means of getting out of their wretched position. He never should forget the energy and force with which they stated their case, and he was happy to say that employment was found for about eighty of them (and he believed many of the others succeeded in obtaining employment), and that, so far as he could ascertain on the most minute inquiry, not twenty-five of the number had ever returned to the course of life from which they had been rescued. That furnished strong evidence that, if they were not driven back to crime by such a disclosure of their position as was involved in the necessity of reporting themselves once a month to the police, many convicts might be restored to society. He might mention another very remarkable case in illustration of what he had just been stating. A boy eighteen years of age, who had passed six years of that time in prison, and who was pronounced by the police to be an incorrigible offender, had presented himself at the door of a reformatory of which he (the Earl of Shaftesbury) was president, and begged to be admitted. Admission was at first refused, on the ground that the boy was beyond the prescribed age; but in compliance with his repeated entreaties his request was at last complied with, and nothing could exceed the propriety of his conduct during the year and
  1444
  a half after his entrance. It was then determined to submit him to a severe experiment, and they said to him, "Here, Daniel" — for that was his name—" here are five pounds for you to go and pay a bill in Whitechapel and bring back the receipt." Now, Whitechapel was the neighbourhood in which this young man had always lived; but he returned in an incredibly short space of time, his eyes sparkling with delight, and when asked, "What makes you so cheerful?" he replied, "Why should I not be cheerful — I have been entrusted with £5." They then asked him how it was he got back so soon, and he said that Whitechapel was his old haunt, and he ran the whole way because he knew the moment he got there his former companions would come round him, and if he stayed with them one half hour he should be a lost man. This showed to his mind that a desire existed amongst this class of people to abandon the vicious course of life they had been leading. But he was sure that if their Lordships insisted upon the proposed regulations the thieves would infinitely prefer remaining in prison and fulfilling their whole sentence, than submit to them. Their Lordships must admit that the whole thing was an experiment; but he thought it would be far better to be a little less stringent in their enactments, although it might allow a few men to slip through the meshes of the law, than by any arbitrary legislation force hundreds of them back to their old courses of fraud and violence.
  Moved, "To insist on the Amendments to which the Commons have disagreed."
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONhoped that the Government would state what course they intended to take in this matter. Much as he was disposed ordinarily to rely on the authority of the noble-Earl who had just sat down (the Earl of Shaftesbury) on these subjects, he could not consider his arguments applicable to this particular question, and if his proposition were carried out, the Bill would become practically unworkable. The point had been very fully discussed already, and on a review of all the arguments he recommended their Lordships not to insist on their Amendment, but to acquiesce in the decision of the other House. He hoped the Government would not allow the matter to fall back into chaos, which would be the case if the Bill were prevented from passing.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the noble Earl who had just spoken had precisely explained the course which Her Majesty's Government intended to pursue. From what he (Earl Granville) had said on the previous stage of the Bill, his noble Friend (the Earl of Shaftesbury) must be aware that he could not concur in the course his noble Friend now proposed, and he thought there would be great danger of losing this important Bill if their Lordships should insist on their Amendment. He hoped, therefore, his noble Friend would withdraw his Motion. He thought, also, that in a great degree the alarm felt with respect to the effect of the Bill, if it passed in its present state, had been greatly exaggerated.
  LORD HOUGHTONregretted that the House of Commons had struck out the words "if required so to do." The condition of the monthly report was now made absolute. There would be no power in the police or any other authority to remit the supervision, and he would much rather the Bill were lost altogether, than that the words should remain as they now stood in the clause. He and those who thought with him in the matter were not open to the charge of disregarding the interests of society, for it was because they believed that the convict by the monthly supervision would be placed in such a condition as would make it impossible for him to regain the paths of honest labour, that their Amendment was proposed. He should not divide the House, but he felt certain the time would come when their Lordships would regret allowing the clause to stand in its present form.
  THE EARL OF LICHFIELDobjected very much to the indiscriminate application of the clause to all persons coming out of convict prisons. He thought there could be no doubt that it would put fresh obstacles in the way of ticket-of-leave men getting employment, while it would not secure the supervision which was exercised over that class in Ireland. Their Lordships ought to pause before introducing a system which could not be proved to have been successful in Ireland, and which had been entirely unsuccessful in France. He would rather see the Bill lost than introduce in it so clumsy a piece of legislation, under the name of police supervision.
  On Question, Whether to insist? their Lordships divided:—contents 25; Not-Contents 62: Majority 37,
  Resolved in the Negative.
  Commons' Amendment to Lords' Amendments agreed to.

  CONTENTS.

  Westminster, M.

  Congleton, L.

  Cranworth, L.

  Airlie, E.

  Dartrey, L. (L. Cremorne).

  Chichester, E.

  Effingham, E.

  Ebury, L.

  Fortescue, E.

  Houghton, L.

  Harrowby, E.

  Leigh, L.

  Lichfield E. [Teller.]

  Ponsonby, L, (E. Bessborough).

  Shaftesbury, E. [Teller.]

  Verulam, E.

  Portman, L.

  Silchester, L, (E. Longford)

  De Vesci, V.

  Eversley, V.

  Stratheden, L.

  Taunton, L.

  Calthorpe, L.

  Vivian, L.

  Churchill, L.

  NOT-CONTENTS.

  Westbury, L. (L. Chancellor).

  Oxford, Bp.

  Abereromby, L.

  Armagh, Achbp.

  Abinger, L.

  Annaly, L.

  Buckingham and Chandos, D.

  Brougham and Vaux, L.

  Camoys, L.

  Manchester, D.

  Chelmsford, L.

  Somerset, D.

  Clinton, L.

  Colchester, L.

  Bath, M.

  De Tabley, L.

  Salisbury, M.

  Dinevor, L.

  Dunsany, L.

  Caithness, E.

  Egerton, L.

  Carnarvon, E. [Teller.]

  Foley, L. [Teller.]

  Clarendon, E.

  Hamilton, L. (L. Belhaven and Stenton).

  De Grey, E.

  Doncaster, E. (D. Buccleuch and Queensberry).

  Harris, L.

  Lismore, L. (V. Lismore).

  Monson, L.

  Ducie, E,

  Mostyn, L.

  Granville, E.

  Polwarth, L.

  Hardwicke, E.

  Redesdale, L.

  Lucan, E.

  Rivers, L.

  Manvers, E.

  Seaton, L.

  Morley, E.

  Seymour, L. (E. St. Maur).

  Nelson, E.

  Powis, E.

  Sherborne, J.

  Romney, E.

  Stanley of Alderley, L.

  Saint Germans, E.

  Sundridge, L. (D. Argyll).

  Hawarden, V

  Templemore, L.

  Hutchinson, V. (E. Donoughmore).

  Thurlow, L.

  Tredegar, L.

  Leinster, V. (D. Leinster).

  Tyrone, L. (M. Waterford)

  Melville, V.

  Wensleydale, L.

  Sydney, V.

  Wodehouse, L.

  Wynford, L.

  Cork, &c., Bp.

  LORD BROUGHAMsaid, he had voted with the majority because he agreed entirely with the Commons, and wholly disapproved of the clauses as added by their Lordships after a previous decision against that clause; but that even had his opinion been different he should have voted with

  1447
  the majority, because a difference with the Commons must have lost the Bill.

PUBLIC AND REFRESHMENT HOUSES BILL—(No. 184.)

  THIRD READING.
  Bill read 3a (according to Order).
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREobjected to the principle of allowing the local bodies of the different towns to adopt the Act if they so pleased, and moved an Amendment rendering the Act compulsory upon all places to which the Act could extend.
  Clause 2 (Limits of Act).
  Moved to leave out "such "and insert "within the limits of."
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that the principle of granting to municipal and governing bodies such an optional power as that contemplated by the Act was not new. In this case he believed such a provision to be necessary, because the circumstances of the metropolis were so different from those of most other places.
  On Question, That the word proposed to be left out, stand part of the Bill? their Lordships divided:—Contents 44; Not-Contents 33: Majority 11.
  Resolved in the Negative.
  Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

  CONTENTS.

  Westbury, L. (L. Chancellor).

  Churchill, L.

  Cranworth, L.

  Dartrey, L. (L. Cremorne).

  Armagh, Archbp.

  De Tabley, L.

  Somerset, D.

  Ebury, L.

  Foley, L. [Teller.]

  Airlie, E.

  Hamilton, L. (L. Belhaven and Stenton).

  Caithness, E.

  Chichester, E.

  Harris, L.

  De Grey, E.

  Houghton, L.

  Effingham, E.

  Leigh, L.

  Fortescue, E.

  Lismore, L. (V. Lismore).

  Granville, E.

  Lichfield, E.

  Monson, L.

  Morley, E.

  Mostyn, L.

  Saint Germans, E.

  Ponsonby, L. (E. Bessborough). [Teller.]

  Shaftesbury, E.

  Rivers, L.

  Eversley, V.

  Seaton, L.

  Leinster, V. (D. Leinster).

  Seymour, L. (E. St. Maur).

  Sydney, V.

  Stanley of Alderley, L.

  Stratheden, L.

  Cork, &c., Bp.

  Sundridge, L. (D. Argyll).

  Down, &c., Bp.

  Taunton, L.

  Abercromby, L.

  Vivian, L.

  Camoys, L.

  Wodehouse, L.

  1448

  NOT-CONTENTS.

  Buckingham and Chandos, D.

  Melville, V.

  Rutland, D.

  Oxford, Bp.

  Bath, M.

  Abinger, L.

  Salisbury, M.

  Chelmsford, L.

  Colchester, L.

  Carnarvon, E.

  Dinevor, L.

  Doncaster, E. (D. Buccleuch and Queensberry).

  Dunsany, L.

  Egerton, L. [Teller.]

  Polwarth, L.

  Hardwicke, E.

  Portman, L.

  Harrowby, E.

  Redesdale, L.

  Nelson, E.

  Sherborne, L.

  Powis, E.

  Silchester, L. (E. Longford).

  Romney, E.

  Verulam, E.

  Thurlow, L.

  Tredegar, L.

  De Vesci, V.

  Tyrone, L. (M. Waterford).

  Hawarden, V.

  Hutchinson, V. (E. Donoughmore). [Teller.]

  Wensleydale, L.

  Wynford, L

FACTORY ACTS EXTENSION BILL.

  (NO. 176.) COMMITTEE.
  Moved, "That the House be put into a Committee on the said Bill."—(The Lord President.)
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYhoped the Bill was only the precursor of a series of measures the effect of which would be to confer the greatest possible benefits upon the country. The feeling upon the question of the restriction of labour had of late years undergone a remarkable change, and those most affected by the passing of such measures had at length come to perceive the great advantages which would arise from the extension of the half-time system. The result of the present measure would be to relieve 100,000 children and young people, to whom the law had hitherto brought no protection, from the excessive demand which was made upon them for their labour. He would remind their Lordships that the workpeople of the country were well deserving of any protection which Parliament might be the means of affording them. During the late cotton famine in Lancashire there had not been heard a word of sedition or Jacobinism. They felt that they were suffering from a visitation of Providence, and many of them had lately reminded him of their prophecies, that if the Factory Bill passed there would be no more sedition in the manufacturing districts. It had not been necessary to increase the military by a single man in the distressed districts. The people were their own police, and this tranquillity was owing, to a great extent, to the action of

  1449
  Parliament in removing the grievances under which they had formerly laboured. Mr. Baker, the intelligent Inspector of Factories, stated, in 1859, the advantages which the change had brought about. Mr. Baker said—
  "I have thus given you not only the result of my own experience but the local testimony of gentlemen who weekly visit mills, which employ in the aggregate upwards of 70,000 persons, of whom upwards of 40,000 are females and 4,500 are children, and who all testify to the same fact, namely, the almost entire disappearance of deformity and the non-appearance of any other disease specific to factory labour. And it is exceedingly gratifying to find that an experiment, which had many opponents when it was about to be tried, has been productive of such great benefit to the working classes, without I believe an atom of either personal, commercial, or national wrong. I venture to make this latter statement on three grounds:—1. Because, although the hours of work have been very much diminished, wages have increased in some cases as much as 10 per cent, and generally about 12 percent, and therefore the means of providing home comforts by the people have been multiplied. 2. Because it has not diminished any kind of textile production, and therefore it has not injured our national prosperity. Our exports of manufactures in 1844 and 1858 show this in a remarkable manner:

  Value of exports in

  1844

  1858

  Total cotton manufactures

  £18,814,869

  £33,421,843

  Total

  37,767,890

  51,998,927

  Increase

  £14,281,037

  3. Because the people are neither less moral nor less intellectual by the leisure which it has afforded them, In support of this view I appeal to the living and flourishing institutes for intellectual improvement, to the lectures, to the musical meetings, to the allotment gardens, and to all the other sources of pleasure and profit which are now to be found, not only in the towns, but almost in every hamlet of these factory districts; sources of refinement and civilization which only take their date from the possession of the privileges which restricted labour conferred upon the people: I mean the Saturday afternoon, of itself one of the greatest blessings ever conferred upon them, and the certainty of knowing when the master's time ends and their own time begins."
  He trusted their Lordships would pass the Bill through Committee.
  THE EARL OF HARROWBYwas understood to suggest that the trades of lucifer match makers and percussion cap makers he struck out of the schedule of the Bill.
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYsaid, these were two of the most horrible trades in the schedule. The operatives employed in making lucifer matches were liable to some hideous forms of jaw disease, and the manufacture of percussion caps was carried on in the majority of cases by women and children of tender age. It made all
  1450
  the difference to those employed in these trades whether they left work at six or eight o'clock in the evening. The latter was an addition of two hours' toil at the end of the day, and carried on moreover in rooms heated by gas and filled with bad air. He wished the noble Earl would go to these factories and hear from the persons employed the effect of these two hours additional work upon their health and morals. Half the evils to which these young persons were exposed arose from their being detained from home until a late hour in the evening. The only domestic life which persons employed in factory labour could enjoy was in the evening. In the morning they had to hurry over their work, and it was only in the evening that their social enjoyments were obtained, when they met together over the family tea and passed the evening together. There was no one boon obtained by the Factory Act which had produced a more joyous effect upon the hearts of the operatives than the fact of their labours terminating at six o'clock.
  House in Committee.
  Bill reported, without Amendment; and to be read 3a To morrow.

NEW GOVERNMENT OFFICES.

  QUESTION.
  LORD REDESDALErose to draw attention to the line of frontage of the new Government Offices in Downing Street and King Street, and to ask whether it is the intention to purchase property in that neighbourhood for other offices, and for the improvement of the approach to the Houses of Parliament? For many years he had endeavoured to enforce upon the Government the importance of purchasing the property between Great George Street, Parliament Street, and the new Foreign Office, because it was utterly impossible to carry out all the necessary improvements without possessing more space than the Government at present had. More than that—no person, he was sure, could be satisfied with the present approach to the Houses of Parliament. Parliament Street was utterly inadequate to the traffic which passed through it, and King Street was a wretched narrow thoroughfare. Another circumstance was that the improvements which were being effected by Government in that locality produced this consequence, that every day the surrounding property became more valuable. The purchase of the property would not have

  1451
  caused any great expenditure if it had taken place some years ago, or even if it took place now, because there was no necessity for immediate occupation by the Government; and if the freehold interest were acquired the tradesmen and others might remain in possession until the property was actually wanted. Another circumstance to which he wished to draw attention was this — if any one of their Lordships walked down Whitehall he would see that the now building was not upon the same line of frontage as the building in which the Privy Council Office was; and how any good architectural effect could be produced by having the two buildings upon different lines of frontage he could not conceive. He desired to ask whether King Street was to be widened, or were the new buildings to be placed in the existing narrow street? It would be monstrous to have such buildings in so narrow a street, where it would be impossible to allow a carriage to stop at the door for fear of blocking the thoroughfare. If, on the other hand, they widened King Street, they would by so doing improve the value of the property on the other side of it, and this they must eventually purchase if they wished to widen Parliament Street. In Charles Street they had pulled down the houses on one side, and were building there a very fine elevation against one of the nastiest and shabbiest streets in Westminster, and were of course improving the value of the houses opposite. Every house, also, of which the lease fell in, or which wanted repair, was so improved as to render it much more expensive to buy. Since he had first brought the matter before their Lordships as many as from twenty to thirty houses in the locality had been rebuilt. In the new building the line of Charles Street had been taken; and the consequence is that the two sides of Downing Street will not be parallel, but run into each other like a wedge, and on the parade the new building would not be at right angles with the Horse Guards. He thought that it was most unfortunate that this should be so.
  EARL GRANVILLEwas understood to say that he agreed to a great extent with the noble Lord. The Department of the Government which had the matter in hand were of opinion that it would be necessary to purchase all the houses in Charles Street, in order to provide anything like a decent approach to the Houses of Parliament and the other handsome buildings which there would be in the neighbourhood. The cost of this purchase was es-
  1452
  timatcd at £300,000. With regard to the new building not being rectangular with the existing buildings, the same tiling existed in regard to some of the finest structures in Europe, and he believed that the architectural arrangement would be such that no defect would be observed.
  House adjourned at a quarter past Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.