§ THE EARL OF HARDWICKErose to put a Question to the noble Lord the Secretary for War on the subject of our artillery. He wished to know whether Her Majesty's ships were supplied with any guns or projectiles capable of penetrating the sides of a ship armed with plates 4½ inches thick. He believed that was a question which had a most important bearing on the warlike resources of this country. Not many years ago it had been supposed that the substitution of the modern rifle for the old "Brown Bess" had 312 given to musketry so much power over artillery, as to present a most formidable obstacle to the working of guns in the field; and attention was earnestly directed to the question of increasing the range of cannon. A corresponding improvement was immediately afterwards made in artillery itself; and one gentleman in particular, the present Sir William Armstrong, produced a gun which seemed perfectly wonderful in the extent of its range and the precision of its aim. He (the Earl of Hardwicke) remembered the astonishment with which the first intelligence of Sir William Armstrong's invention had been received by the Government of which he (the Earl of Hardwicke) was a member. They immediately entered into negotiations with that gentleman for the purpose of obtaining the services of the inventor in the production and perfecting of the weapon. Those negotiations terminated in a manner which was considered most honourable to Sir William Armstrong, who entered the public service as the head of the department which presided over the manufacture of our artillery. His noble Friend, who was then at the head of the Government (the Earl of Derby), and his noble Friend who was Secretary for War (General Peel), acted with great care and deliberation in conducting their negotiations with Sir William Armstrong, and in providing for the mode in which their views were to be carried into effect. They arranged that the manufacture of the new arm was to be confined to field pieces; and he believed that Sir William Armstrong's field piece was a very valuable weapon. His plan was so to confine the projectile as to give it a much greater range and much greater precision. His guns and his shells were constructed on a new principle, and he had undoubtedly produced a most beautiful weapon. But there started up almost at the same time an opponent to his guns, in the shape of iron-plated ships; and it appeared from experiment, that his artillery was ineffective against such vessels, and it was also found that the old 68-pounder was the best weapon that could be employed with any chance of smashing in their plates. Then appeared before the public another inventor, who produced a gun and projectile upon a principle totally different from the invention of Sir William Armstrong. He did not think the Government had done justice either to themselves or this inventor (Mr. Whitworth) in the course they had pursued towards that gentleman; 313 and it was not unnatural that it should be so, while they had at the head of their establishment the inventor of the Armstrong gun, and when a sum of, he believed, £2,500,000 had been expended upon the construction of artillery upon his principle. These guns, too, which were useless against iron-plated ships, had, he believed, been supplied to the navy as well as to the army. Mr. Whitworth, who had been well known since 1855 as an inventor of artillery, and who since 1857 had been under the necessity of protecting his inventions by patents, had found it impossible to get his experiments carried out as he desired; but he had been permitted to make certain experiments, and he had in no instance failed to show that he could penetrate iron-plated ships not only with shot but with shell; and thus by his invention the iron-plated ships became as vulnerable as the old wooden vessels had been. That fact alone ought to have earned for Mr. Whitworth a full inquiry on the part of the Government; and we might thus have been relieved from an enormous item in our recent expenditure. Experiments had been made with Mr. Whitworth's gun against the Trusty, which was one of the fleet of iron-plated vessels constructed for the defence of our harbours, and by those experiments the power of the gun to penetrate such a ship had been fully established. Sir William Armstrong's gun could not penetrate her sides, whereas Mr. Whitworth s shot went right through the hull, making a clean hole as though it had been punched. Since then experiments had been made at Shoeburyness, when Mr. Whitworth took down a gun, the results of which were marvellous, for every discharge sent the shot—the 70-pound shot as well as the 12-pound—through the target. Up to this time, he (the Earl of Hardwicke) had been speaking of solid projectiles; but he would now turn to what was still more astounding—he meant the shells. Sir William Armstrong, in 1862, at Sheffield, stated that shells had failed against iron-plated ships, and that neither 68-pounders nor 100-pounders, with solid round or conical shots, could be effective against them. The experiments against the Trusty were made in May, 1860, and therefore he (the Earl of Hardwicke) assumed that in those experiments no shells were fired. Subsequently, however, Mr. Whitworth's shells passed through the iron target as though they had been so much paper, and exploded, blowing the whole of the internal lining 314 into fragments. Having stated these facts, he asked why they were not investigated? They had here a distinguished inventor who had performed everything he had promised, or if he had failed in any instance, it was because he had to work with one of the old cast iron guns rifled for the purpose of the experiment by himself. And when he saw the condition of our ships, that they were not armed with guns that could effect anything against iron-plates, he was justified in asking for information on the subject. He believed that the Armstrong gun was inapplicable to sea service, and to the sort of firing that was required in action, for the machinery was too delicate—the vent-piece was so perfectly fitted for the purpose of preventing the escape of the gases—that the guns had almost invariably been useless for rapid firing after two or three discharges. Under these circumstances he had to put the question to his noble Friend opposite (Earl de Grey), because he thought it was time that the talents of inventors like Mr. Whitworth should be taken up seriously by the country, and the sooner such a gun-as that gentleman had shown he could make was brought into use the better. The question he (the Earl of Hardwicke) had to ask was, Whether Her Majesty's ships were supplied with any guns or projectiles that could at once penetrate a ship's side armed with plates 4½ inches thick of iron?
§ THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, that as his noble Friend's question immediately related to the navy, it might be more convenient that he should reply to it, having from the first been acquainted with and taken part in these experiments. When the present Government came into office, in 1859, they found a record in the department strongly approving and praising the gun of Sir William Armstrong, and several of his 40-pounders and 70-pounders had been ordered to be made. He was very anxious, and the same anxiety had been expressed in both Houses of Parliament, that the navy should be supplied with a rifled gun; he therefore communicated with the late Lord 'Herbert on the subject. A 70-pounder gun was sent to them in November, 1859. It was sent to sea under charge of Sir William Wiseman, who was to report upon its efficiency. It was put on board a vessel called the Wrangler, and the persons sent to watch its performance reported on their return from a week's cruise, that, in point of power, accuracy, 315 and, in short, every quality of a gun, the piece appeared to them to be excellent. This gun, though called a 70-pounder, had been provided by Sir William Armstrong with projectiles weighing 100 lbs., which had been fired with perfect safety. Accordingly, a certain number of very similar guns, which were to be 110-pounders, were ordered. In the meantime it was true, as the noble Earl had stated, that the question of armour-plate arose; and it was found when tried at Shoeburyness, that the gun of which the accuracy and power against wooden ships was tremendous had not sufficient power against iron plates. Neither the 68-pounder nor the 110-pounder could penetrate the iron plates. If anything, the 68-pounder struck the heavier blow. He then saw Mr. Whitworth, who said to him that he could produce a gun and projectile that should penetrate the iron plates. The projectile, he said, must be of a very peculiar manufacture, but it could be done. He accordingly communicated with Lord Herbert, who said he was most anxious to try the experiment. They went down the river to the Nore, and had the Trusty anchored 200 yards off. Mr. Whitworth was present. The gun was fired, and undoubtedly Mr. Whitworth's bolts went right into the vessel, two shots going clean through the armour plate and the side of the vessel, and had they gone on with two or three shots more they would have sunk the vessel. He proposed to Lord Herbert that they should buy that gun in order that further experiments might be tried. They paid Mr. Whitworth a large sum for it, and they continued to try various other experiments. The misfortune was that in some of their trials the gun was found to have a flaw, and eventually it burst. Still he was in hopes that they should have some more guns supplied. They frequently tried to obtain other guns from Mr. Whitworth. He could assure the noble Earl, so far from favouring any one manufacturer—Sir William Armstrong or any one else—they were only anxious to get a gun that would answer for the navy. Rather more than a year ago he had further communication with Mr. Whitworth, who said that he could produce a gun, but the difficulty was as to the material, to get homogeneous metal; for the gun used at Shoeburyness was not made by Mr. Whitworth but at the Royal factory at Woolwich, on the Armstrong plan of using coiled metal, it being found impossible to make it of homogeneous metal, as was required by 316 Mr. Whitworth. That gentleman's proposition was, that if he could get the homogeneous metal he could make the gun. He (the Duke of Somerset) was most anxious to have a fair trial of Mr. Whitworth's gun, and accordingly more than a year ago a Committee was appointed, and Mr. Whitworth expressed himself satisfied with the members of that Committee. They were to report on the comparative merits of the Whitworth and of the Armstrong guns. Although Mr. Whitworth expressed himself particularly satisfied with the Committee that was chosen, he had never produced the gun, and the Committee appointed to report on the experiments had not been able to meet because they had no gun to report on. He admitted that Mr. Whitworth's invention was very clever, and he had no favour for one inventor over another. All he wanted was a good gun, and if Mr. Whitworth offered one it should be tried. In the various trials of guns and of projectiles it has been proved that the power of penetrating iron-plates depends in great measure on the hardness of the projectile, for no sooner had the got a hardened projectile than not only Mr. Whitworth's but Sir William Armstrong's guns sent both shot and shell through the iron plates. Flat-headed answered no better than pointed projectiles, and the Iron-plate Committee had not reported that the flat-head to the shot was of the slightest importance to the projectile. They were still left in a great difficulty as regarded the navy, for although they had experimental 300-pounder and 150-poundcr guns, which would send projectiles through iron plates, they had no good broadside guns for the navy. He was anxious, therefore, to go further, and about a year ago he communicated with his noble Friend at the head of the War Department, and with his concurrence sent for Sir William Armstrong, and told him that while they were going on with their experiments and trying various schemes for rifling, which might occupy their attention for months, and it might be for years, the Admiralty would never get a gun; that they really wanted a plain gun in the meantime for the use of the navy, which they might charge with from 25lb. to 30lb. of powder—a gun of about six tons weight. Sir William Armstrong said that that could easily be furnished. Accordingly that gun was produced in September or October last, and the results were very satisfactory. The 317 practice made at from 1,000 to 1,200 yards was most accurate. At 2,600 yards the practice was still good, although inferior to that made by the rifled 110-pounder. As compared with the 68-pounder the interval between the rounds was only 15 seconds greater; the concussion between the decks did not appear to be objectionable; they found no difficulty in training the gun, and when tried in a gunboat it was as easily controlled as the 68-pounder. The gun was considered superior for service against iron-plated ships to any gun they had. They had a report from the gunnery ship that the smooth-bore 100-pounder, with a charge of 25 lb. of powder, penetrated through and through a 5½ inch iron plate with round shot at 200 yards. That showed, that after all the talk about punch-headed shot, what they wanted was a good, hard, solid shot that would shatter iron to splinters and go through the planking inside. The result, as far as it went, was perfectly satisfactory in regard to the broadside gun. A number of these guns had been ordered, and some of them would be delivered in a very few weeks. As there was no complexity in their construction, no breach-loading or rifling, they could be made very fast. At the same time that was not all that they wanted. They required a rifled gun of about the same weight, and this gun is also now made and ready for trial. When they got that they would see whether they gained any advantage by the rifled gun. One advantage they must lose was, that they must have a lower calibre for the elongated shot, and, instead of having a 9-inch bore, they would have one of about 7 inches. They had now got two guns of about the same weight, one smooth bore and one rifled, and after a trial of these two guns it will be ascertained which is fitted for a broadside gun. The greater nicety in the projectiles used for the rifled gun caused some delay; but he hoped in a few weeks to be able to give the House more precise details as to these experiments. The noble Lord would see that although the guns with which the navy was provided were no more than the 68-pounder and the 110 pounder of Sir William Arm strong, yet that they were in the way of making a gun which would answer broadside purposes, and also of getting a gun with rifling. He thought he had now explained the reasons for the slow progress in obtaining guns. The truth was that the whole question of the manufacture of iron 318 was now in a state of transition. Everyday they would see new experiments with guns and projectiles. What they wanted was a projectile that would go through iron plates at a reasonable cost. There were many qualities of iron, but they found that only the very best steel would pierce a plate satisfactorily. There was little doubt that in a short time they would be able to send spherical projectiles through iron-plated ships. But when the noble Earl said that wooden ships would therefore be as good as iron ones, he could not agree with him. He was afraid, that whatever they might do, they must still keep to iron-plated vessels; because, although shots might pass through them, yet the inevitable destruction of wooden ships by shells would be such that warfare by such ships against ironclads properly armed would be out of the question. Therefore, while they were increasing the force of their guns, they must also increase the strength of their ship's sides. The last specimen of a ship's side which they had was very considerably stronger than those they had before; and he hoped that the vessels so constructed would be able to go to sea, and keep the sea in all weathers. He thought, then, that they had made all the progress in their power. He was sure that no pains had been spared to do so. The subject was naturally an interesting one, and no one could take it up without desiring to see the progress made in it. Many highly intelligent minds were engaged upon it, and were continually sending in new inventions; and although the Government were so overrun with new projects that if they attended to them all endless delay would ensue, they, nevertheless, desired not to overlook any valuable practical improvement.
§ THE EARL OF HARDWICKE,in reply, said, he thought that what had fallen from the noble Duke had admitted all that he (the Earl of Hardwicke) had stated in his opening remarks. It really appeared that Mr. Whitworth had long since succeeded in doing all that the noble Duke was about to do with his gun. In Mr. Whitworth they had a man who could produce a weapon and a projectile to penetrate a 4½ in, iron plate, and though they saw the effect of his shot and shell, the Government declined to employ him. The noble Duke had himself turned inventor, and found a smooth-bore gun which sent a spherical shot through an iron-plate. But Mr. Whit-worth's projectile was one of a most wonderful description, and with a raking broad- 319 side against an iron-cased ship it would be almost as effective as against a wooden one. The noble Duke concluded by stating that all these things had to be tried, and he would therefore earnestly caution the Government against putting into the broadside of a ship a gun weighing six tons, for if he did, those on board would never forget it when they came to work such a gun in a sea. Their Lordships would observe that his question had brought out an important fact—namely, that at the present moment, notwithstanding an enormous expenditure continued during ten years, the Royal Navy was not provided with a single gun capable of penetrating an iron-plated ship.
EARL DE GREY AND RIPONsaid, he thought the noble Earl had somewhat misrepresented the relations between the Government and Mr. Whitworth. The facts of the case were these:—At an early period, as their Lordships had been informed, the noble Duke at the head of the Admiralty put himself in communication with Mr. Whitworth, and after the successful experiments with his gun against the Trusty, the gun was purchased by Government, and further experiments tried with it in 1862. Other experiments were subsequently made with other guns. The most remarkable of these took place at Shoeburyness in September, 1863, when Mr. Whitworth threw his shells through the Warrior target. Almost immediately after that experiment, the communication between the Government and Mr. Whitworth still continuing, it was proposed by the noble Duke at the head of the Admiralty and the late Sir George Lewis, that a fresh Committee, composed of persons who had not dealt with the question previously, and against whom Mr. Whitworth could urge no objection on the score of prejudice, should be appointed to consider the relative merits of the Armstrong and Whitworth guns. Concurrent trials between the two guns had previously been proposed to Mr. Whitworth at different periods, but he had invariably objected either to the programme which had been proposed, or to the Committee to which the inquiry was to be intrusted. His real objection was that he did not like the Committee, because he thought some of its members were persons who had approved the Armstrong gun originally, and were committed either by that approval or by subsequent inquiries in favour of the Armstrong gun. In order to meet that objection it was determined, as he had already said, to appoint a fresh 320 Committee. A personal friend of Mr. Whitworth was added to the Committee; another person was appointed to represent Sir William Armstrong; the instructions to the Committee after careful consideration were shown both to Sir William Armstrong and to Mr. Whitworth; and at length the Committee was formally constituted on the 1st of January, 1863. It commenced by taking evidence. That employed it for about three months; but in the meantime it ordered a certain number of guns from each competitor. The guns so ordered were 12-pounders and 70-pounders. After a time the 12-pounders were delivered, but Mr. Whitworth's 70-pounders had not been sent in yet; and from the time when it closed its evidence the Committee had done nothing except repeatedly calling upon Mr. Whitworth to produce his 70-pounders. That was the reason why the inquiry had been stopped. He wished to speak most fairly upon this subject. The reason alleged by Mr. Whitworth for the non-delivery of the guns was the difficulty in obtaining the proper quality of steel which he required. The Committee was appointed by the Government, and instead of its being owing to any delay on the part of the Government that the invention of Mr. Whitworth had not been completely and fairly examined, the delay was with Mr. Whitworth in not bringing forward his 70-pounders. He could assure their Lordships that there was not the slightest disinclination on the part of the Government to inquire fairly into he inventions of Mr. Whitworth. The intventions of so eminent a man of science were mostly worthy of examination; but the Government could not proceed hastily or rashly in such a matter, and all they wished was that Mr. Whitworth would produce his gun in order that it might be fairly tried.