Lords Sitting of 7 April 1864

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Journal Committee— Ninety-fifth Volume (Session 1863), with Index, reported ready for Delivery.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading — Charitable Assurances Enrolments [H.L.]* (No. 38); Union Relief Aid Acts Continuance* (No. 39).
Second Reading—Settled Estates Act Amendment [H.L.] (No. 36).
Third Reading— Malt for Animals* (No. 16); Conveyancers, &c. (Ireland)* (No. 17).

DENMARK AND GERMANY.
  BOMBARDMENT OF SONDERBORG.

    QUESTION.
    THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY: My Lords, seeing my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in his place, I will take the liberty of putting a Question of which I have given him private notice. Your Lordships are well aware that the attention of the public has been drawn to a very sad occurrence which has taken place in the Danish war, a telegraphic report of which appeared in the newspapers of the 5th, and also of the 6th inst. I will read the telegram upon which I wish to put the Question. It is dated Ulkeböl, and says—
    "The Prussians have bombarded Sonderborg for forty-eight hours without any previous intimation. Eighty townspeople, women and children, have been killed or wounded, fifty houses in the centre of the town were burnt, and 1,500 shells (thrown into the town, which is now deserted,"
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    Now, my Lords, it is possible that this statement may be altogether untrue. We may hope so. But if true, it puts before us one of the most cruel—one of the most outrageous—acts ever perpetrated, or ever recorded in the history, I do not say of a civilized, but even of an uncivilized country. Consider, my Lords, that the laws of war, as I believe, and certainly the modern usages of war, have laid it down that no bombardment is to take place without previous notice, and also that no undefended place or unwalled town is ever to be bombarded at all. But in the present instance both these usages have been violated. An undefended town, without walls or bulwarks of any kind, and without any previous notice, has been bombarded for forty-eight hours, and eighty women and children have been made the victims of that atrocity. Now, my Lords, I must say, that if this be so, it is a state of things which will bring us to believe that the Prussian Government, which is responsible, and the Prussian military, which are the instruments, are not fit to be counted in the list of civilized men or civilized nations. I will not go further, upon the supposition that all this may prove untrue, than to express my hope that the Government will be able to give us information upon this subject; and that if it be true, as stated in this telegram, they will be good enough to tell us what steps they have taken upon the matter. I will only repeat now what I said before—that I do sincerely hope and trust—and I am sure since the time I had last the honour of addressing your Lordships the feeling of the country has grown much more intense —I do sincerely hope that the British fleet will appear in those seas to prevent the occurrence — it may be the recurrence— of these most cowardly and frightful atrocities.
    EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, in regard to the question of my noble Friend, I can only say, that I saw in the newspapers the account which he has read, and I sent a telegram to Sir Andrew Buchanan, our Minister at Berlin, with a view to ascertain what might be the truth. But I cannot find that Sir Andrew Buchanan can give me any intelligence at present on the subject. It is impossible but that in a very few days we should know what are the actual facts of the case. I should not think myself warranted in giving an opinion until we know the real facts.

  UNITED STATES—FOREIGN ENLIST MENT ACT—THE "KEARSARGE."

    EXPLANATION.
    THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, he wished to correct a mistake which had appeared in all the reports he had seen, to the effect that he had stated that the men on board the Kearsarge were examined by the medical officers, had been placed on the books of the ship, and that they were clothed in the uniform of the United States navy. On the contrary, he had only stated, in answer to the noble Earl, that if Mr. Adams did not deny the placing of the men on the books and clothing them in the uniform, then it was impossible that the officers could not have known those facts.
    EARL RUSSELLsaid, he had called the attention of Mr. Adams to the statements that had been made, and he had also called the attention of the Home Secretary to them.

  DENMARK AND GERMANY—DISCUSSION ON THE AFFAIRS OF DENMARK.

    QUESTION.
    EARL GREYsaid, he wished to ask the noble Earl, with reference to the notice which had been given by a noble Lord not now in his place (Lord Campbell) of his intention to bring on the question of Denmark on Monday evening, Whether his noble Friend would make an objection to any discussion on the subject, just as he had done before the Easter holydays; and in the event of his doing so, whether that objection would apply as well to the transactions which preceded the invasion of Schleswig by the Prussians and Austrians as to the present state of affairs? He asked the question upon this ground—that as the papers containing an account of those transactions had been laid upon the table by command of Her Majesty, if they were allowed to remain without any notice being taken of them, it might virtually imply that their Lordships approved the course taken by Her Majesty's Government. Now, as he for one was of opinion that the policy of Her Majesty's Government in this matter was not entitled to approval, he thought it would not be right that the House should be debarred of the opportunity of expressing its views upon the subject.
    EARL RUSSELL: In answer to the Question of my noble Friend, I beg to say that when it was proposed to bring on the discussion before Easter, I took upon myself the responsibility of asking that it
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    should not at that time take place, for two reasons — one was that I was about to present by command of Her Majesty further papers, containing part of the Correspondence which had taken place on the subject of the war; and the other was, that very delicate negotiations were going on with various Powers on the subject of a Conference. He could not say that either of those reasons now existed, because the papers presented were complete, and there were now no negotiations going on with respect to the Conference. All the parties to the Treaty of London had already accepted the proposal of a Conference, and the only question that remained was with regard to the Diet of Frankfort, which body had received a communication on the subject on the 27th of March, inviting them to send a representative, but had not yet had time to reply. He did not wish, therefore, to take upon himself the responsibility of saying that the subject should not be discussed. But it was another question whether the House, seeing that the Conference was about to meet, would wish to enter upon a protracted discussion on those affairs. That was a matter for the consideration of the House. But he did not think it possible to separate the early part of the Correspondence from that which had afterwards taken place.

    SETTLED ESTATES ACT AMENDMENT BILL— [H.L.] (No. 43.)—SECOND READING.
    LORD CRANWORTH, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said, that the object of the Bill was to amend an Act which had been passed some six or seven years ago — the 19th and 20th of the Queen, c. 120—the object of which was to facilitate leases and sales of settled estates. It often happened that marriage and other settlements contained no power to the trustees to grant leases for building and other purposes, and it became necessary to apply to Parliament for a Private Act to enable them to do so; and the object of the statute was to enable trustees to grant such leases by a summary application to the Court of Chancery. Owing, perhaps, to some obscurity in the wording of the Act, the Courts of Chaneery had put an interpretation upon it which prevented the intention of the Act from being fully carried out. The object of the present measure was to render it unnecessary to comply with certain conditions which

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    the Court of Chancery had held to be required by the Act, unless the Court should see some special reason why the compliance with such conditions was necessary or expedient.
    Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a" —(Lord Cranworth.)
    THE EARL OF MALMESBURYsaid, he had been a considerable sufferer from the interpretation put upon the 19 & 20 Vict. He happened to own a considerable tract of land which had suddenly become valuable, owing to its proximity to a fashionable watering-place. Owing to the Act to which the noble and learned Lord had alluded, he found that every lease that he had to grant he had to apply for through his solicitor to the Court of Chancery. This was a process involving much expense and great delay; but it had other ill effects. A gentleman living very near to him was in a much better position. There were numerous applications for the land for building purposes. The consequence was, that builders when applying to him (the Earl of Malmesbury), found that they would have to wait some weeks before the lease could be made out. They would immediately say they could not wait so long. His neighbour was in the condition to give a lease within a few days, and of course the builders and contractors went to him. In this manner, the value of his property was sometimes greatly diminished.
    THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that the case of the noble Earl was by no means singular. He believed there was a great deal of property in the country so situated, particularly in the neighbourhood of large manufacturing towns. Several cases had come within his own experience. The Act did not, it would appear, state explicitly the intention which the noble and learned Lord who introduced it had in view. As to the delay, there was considerable delay involved in the fact that a solicitor had to be employed for such a purpose as an application to the Court of Chancery, more particularly solicitors who lived in remote parts of the kingdom, who had, of course, to conform to the rules of the Court. He approved of the present measure, and considered that it would be most beneficial in its operation.
    Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.
    House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, till to-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.