Lords Sitting of 27 March 1863

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Corrupt Practices at Elections (No. 62).
Second Reading—Marine Mutiny; Augmentation of Benefices (No. 59).
Report—Post Office Savings Banks (No. 47).
Third Reading—Births and Deaths Registration (Ireland) (No. 57); and passed.
Royal Assent—Consolidated Fund (£10.000,000) [26 & 27 Vict., c. 6]; Naval Coast Volunteers Act Amendment [26 & 27 Vict., c. 5]; Malt Duty [26 & 27 Vict., c. 3]; Union Relief Aid Act (1862) Continuance [26 & 27 Vict., c. 7]; Tobacco Duties [26 & 27 Vict., c. 4].

EAST INDIA (SALE OF WASTE LANDS, &c. INSTRUCTIONS)—LAW OF CONTRACTS (INDIA).

  MOTION FOR A PAPER. QUESTION.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE moved an Address for
  "Copy of the Instructions recently sent to the Governor General of India in Council, respecting the Sale of Waste Lands, the Redemption of Land Revenue, and the Extension of the Permanent Settlement."
  He begged also to ask, Whether there was any objection to lay on the table the
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  Minutes of Council and other documents relating to the Law of Contracts in India?
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he had no objection to the production of papers relating to waste lands. But with regard to the noble Marquess's Question as to the papers connected with the law of contracts, the papers were voluminous; and as the correspondence was not yet quite concluded, it would require consideration before they were produced.
  Motion agreed to.

DISTURBANCES IN IRELAND.

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF BANDONinquired of the President of the Council, Whether any investigation would be instituted as to the nature and extent of the organization manifested by the disloyal proceedings in Dublin, Cork, and other towns in Ireland?
  EARL GRANVILLEwas understood to say, that the matter had attracted the attention of the Government, and that an investigation into the nature and origin of those proceedings was being made by the authorities in Ireland.

DUBLIN METROPOLITAN RAILWAY BILL.—QUESTION.
THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE, rose to present a petition from the Guardians of the North Poor Law Union of Dublin against the Metropolitan Railway Bill; and to ask whether the Irish Government or the Board of Trade has expressed any opinion upon the merits of that Bill? The noble Marquess said, that the petitioners represented that the project in question, if carried into effect, would do infinite mischief to Dublin. The Bill proposed to carry a railway by means of bridges over no less than fifty thoroughfares, thus cutting the city right through from west to east, destroying its beauty, interrupting the general traffic, and injuring the trade of the shopkeepers. The question was, whether a much better plan might not be adopted. Their Lordships were unanimous last night in thinking that the metropolitan railways ought not to be left to be decided upon singly by Select Committees, but that a Commission ought to be appointed to consider the subject as a whole. He trusted that Dublin would have the benefit of the same science and experience; and he had therefore, to ask whether the Government or the Board of Trade had expressed any opinion on the merits of the Dublin Metropolitan Bill?
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the Lord-Lieutenant had communicated with the Board of Trade, and by the time the Bill Came before their Lordships he hoped that their Report would be laid on the table.
THE EARL OF LEITRIMsaid, that the Dublin Metropolitan Railway Bill was a most wanton encroachment on the citizens of Dublin. It would materially injure the harbour, and would be a perfect nuisance to the citizens. He doubted very much whether, if their Lordships sanctioned the Bill, the railway would be made, and still more whether, if made, it would pay. He believed that it would be very easy to form a junction between the existing railways without interfering with the city of Dublin.

POLICE REWARDS (IRELAND).

  ADDRESS FOR RETURNS.
  THE EARL OF LEITRIM THE EARL OF LEITRIM moved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for a Return showing the "Number of Rewards offered by Officers of
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  Police in each County in Ireland during the year 1860;" and of details connected with that subject.
  EARL, GRANVILLE, in reply, said, that the noble Earl had frequently been appealed to by Peers on both sides of the House not to make Motions without previously giving sufficient notice. The noble Earl gave notice only last night of his intention to move for two sets of Returns—one set of eight, and the other of thirteen Returns. It was impossible to communicate in that short time with the Irish Government. The noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Ellenborough) once pointed out the absolute duty of Her Majesty's Government examining such notices, in order to avoid unnecessary expenditure of money and time. It was, for that reason, impossible to accede to the present Motion. The noble Earl might renew it after the recess; or, if it was inconvenient for him to attend the House for that purpose, it would (if the Returns were really worth having) be easy for him to procure the assistance of a noble Friend to move for them.
  THE EARL OF LEITRIMsaid, he would postpone his Motion till after the recess.

BIRTHS AND DEATHS REGISTRATION (IRELAND) BILL—(No. 57.)

  THIRD READING.
  Bill read 3a (according to Order).
  THE EARL OF BANDON THE EARL OF BANDON moved an Amendment on the 23rd clause of the Bill, that—
  "The Guardians of any Union shall appoint a Person, with such Qualifications as the Registrar-General may by any general Rule declare to be necessary, to be Registrar of Births and Deaths in each District, and in any ease of Vacancy in the office of Registrar shall forthwith fill up the Vacancy."
  He believed this proposal would give great satisfaction in Ireland, and it would tend to assimilate the machinery of registration in Ireland to that of England. Under the system as suggested by the Bill, he feared ill feeling would be excited between the dispensary doctors and the workhouse doctors. It was said, that if his Amendment were carried, the Bill would be lost; but he hoped their Lordships would not be deterred from considering his proposition on its merits.
  THE EARL OF ST. GERMANSsaid, he should oppose the Amendment. The question, it raised had been discussed in the

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  other House, and the proposal was rejected. The dispensary doctors were very intelligent gentlemen and well fitted for the performance of the duties the Bill imposed upon them, and he did not believe any professional jealousy could be engendered between them and the workhouse doctors. He, moreover, thought it very undesirable to introduce a bone of contention by encouraging contested elections for this office.
  THE EARL OF LEITRIMthought it desirable to assimilate the law of England and Ireland, and supported the Amendment. He objected to the charge of registration imposed on the poor rate by the Bill. He thought it should be a charge on the Consolidated Fund.
  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, his noble Friend who had just sat down, had diverted the attention of the House from the question immediately before it. He said that the charge should be thrown on the Consolidated Fund; that was not in accordance with his other argument, that they should assimilate the law of England and Ireland. If they were to do so, the charge must be on the local fund. As to the question itself, there was a good deal in the argument as to limiting the choice of the registrars to the dispensary doctors. They were, no doubt, generally very well calculated to discharge the duties of their office; but there were instances in which their other duties would occupy so much of their time as to render it impossible for them to do so, and in some large towns it might be desirable to have a registrar who would devote his whole time to the particular business. He did not entertain the same apprehension which the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of St. Germans) did, as to the contested elections that would take place if the boards of guardians elected the registrars; and there was considerable force in the argument that those who found the funds should chose those who were to receive them. He understood that this Amendment had been discussed in the House of Commons, when the view taken by the Government was affirmed by a majority of two to one. He could hardly think, that it the Amendment were carried, the Government would be justified in throwing up the Bill; but still, even while inclined to agree with the view taken by his noble Friend (the Earl of Bandon), he knew the great difficulty there had been in obtaining a system of registration for Ireland; and he would therefore suggest that the Amendment should not be pressed.
  Amendment (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
  Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

AUGMENTATION OF BENEFICES BILL.

  (No. 59.) SECOND READING.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYsaid, that not having been present when the subject was brought forward on the previous evening, he desired now to express his most hearty concurrence-in the proposal of the Lord Chancellor.
  THE BISHOP OF LONDONsaid, he could not allow that opportunity to pass without expressing the great importance which, the right rev. Prelates attached to the Bill now before their Lordships. On the point of affirming the principle of the Bill no discussion was likely to take place, and therefore he would detain their Lordships but a few moments. The Bill appeared to him the more important that it was, as far as he knew, the first piece of ecclesiastical legislation submitted to the House by any Government for the last six years and a half, with the exception of the measure to continue the Ecclesiastical Commission. He must be allowed to say that they did not on that account feel less grateful to the noble and learned Lord for having taken up this question of the augmentation of small benefices in so practical a spirit. The difficulty to be contended with in dealing with such a question arose mainly from the necessity of adjusting the new state of things to arrangements, many of which belonged to old times. Many attempts had been made, during the last six years, to introduce alterations in reference to our ecclesiastical system, but all these attempts had failed, because they had been unable to secure the assistance of the Government The consequence was that noble Lords who had brought measures before their Lordships had nut been able to carry them, for want of such assistance. A noble Lord (Lord Lyttelton) a short time ago brought in a measure in reference to the increase of the episcopate, and a noble Duke (the Duke of Marlborough), who was then present, had endeavoured to settle the very difficult question of church, rates; but so long as such matters were left to individual effort, the right rev. Bench were persuaded that it was impossible that: any satisfactory conclusion could be arrived at in reference to those ecclesiastical improvements which they

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  wished to have effected. There had been continued complaints against the right rev. Bench for not having themselves undertaken and carried the ecclesiastical alterations which were much required; but he was convinced that the right rev. Bench had exercised a wise discretion in not putting themselves forward as champions of this or that particular scheme of amendment, unless they were satisfied that they would receive some strong support from those, both in that and the other House of Parliament, who were in a position to enable them to carry their measures to a successful issue. The proposal of the noble and learned Lord had this recommendation, that it was of a thoroughly practical nature. The noble and learned Lord complained yesterday, with great force, of the difficulty which existed in securing the services of properly-educated persons for the ministry throughout the country; and he naturally pointed to the existence of so many small benefices as one of the causes of this difficulty. Now, it so happened that the Church, in reference to this matter, notwithstanding the important changes which had been introduced in the course of the last twenty years into our ecclesiastical system, was perhaps in a worse case than at the beginning of those reforms. Under the old state of things these small benefices were held in plurality, and therefore it was possible to make a living out of them; but now, by wise legislation, the system of pluralities had come to an end, and this very improvement had caused fresh difficulties. Some of their Lordships might, perhaps, remember what the number of small benefices throughout the country was. The only Return which he had been able to obtain was printed in 1835, at the beginning of the great changes to which he had referred; and from that Return it appeared that there were 297 benefices under £50 per annum, 1,629 between £50 and £100, 1,602 between £100 and £150, and there were nearly 7,000 benefices (in all) below £300 a year. The changes which had been since introduced had established a machinery for raising the income of these small benefices; and it was only due to those who had the management of the affairs of the Commission to take this opportunity of saying, that they had spared no means to accomplish the result they had in view. One part of their work was to suppress sinecures, and from that source a considerable
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  fund had been raised. Another duty of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners was to increase the value of the property of the Church by altering its tenure. Now, when he looked at the Report of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, he saw that, not with standing all their labours, all they had been able to add to the property of the Church was not more than £1,200,000; and if that sum were divided among 7,000 benefices, it would only produce, on an average, an increase of £8 a year at the most. Taking, therefore, into consideration the great number of new poor benefices created by the Commission, their Lordships would see, that whatever was the situation of affairs in 1835, and however great had been their efforts at improvement, the Commissioners had not as yet been able to produce any very great result; and therefore they were still in the position of having an immense number of benefices which were quite inadequate for the support of their incumbents, and the difficulty of finding incumbents had been increased by the very reforms which had been introduced. He must say that the plan of the noble and learned Lord seemed to be the best plan of the kind which had yet fallen into his hands. The plan which had been proposed by the Commission, over which he believed Lord Harrow by presided, was, by the sale of benefices, to create a general fund, out of which 600 new churches might be built in the country. Now, that would have been a desirable result; but the great objection was to the multiplication of very poor benefices, which would entail serious evils. The noble and learned Lord, however, had confined his attention to one point—that of increasing the value of a certain number of the existing poor livings, and putting our existing system into a good state so far as his means went. In his opinion, the plan of the noble and learned Lord might be well applied to all benefices held in public patronage; and when they were about to assent to the principle of the Bill, it was not unimportant that they should remember that that principle would apply to a great many other cases besides that of the small benefices in the patronage of the Lord Chancellor. It was extremely important that all public patrons—such for example as the Deans and Chapters and other public bodies, to say nothing of the Bishops—if not able adequately to discharge the trust imposed upon them, should be able to dispose of that

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  trust in order to improve the livings. Patronage, it must be borne in mind, was not held for the benefit of a private individual, still less as a mere appendage to the position of any dignitary; but it was a sacred trust for the benefit of the parishioners. If, therefore, the principle of the noble and learned Lord's proposal were carried further, great benefit to our ecclesiastical system might accrue. The reform which was needed in the matter of small benefices never could be perfected unless the Government determined to aid a scheme of improvement, such as that proposed by the noble and learned Lord.
  THE ARCHBISHOP OF YORKsaid, their Lordships could hardly overrate the difficulty which the Bill was intended to remove. It was no reproach to any former Lord Chancellor to say that he had not well discharged the duties which the church patronage attached to the office imposed upon him, for they were duties which it was almost impossible for him to discharge well. The number of small benefices in his gift was 720, and it was estimated that on the average, in addition to other arduous duties, the Lord Chancellor had to find and place a fit clergyman in a parish once in every ten days. He was sure that every Member of the episcopal bench would find it difficult to appoint a fit revising barrister once in every ten days. This measure was a step in the right direction, for it was a step towards the better endowment of that most valuable and respectable class the working clergy; and it would remove a burden which the Lord Chancellor must severely feel. Some of the details of the Bill would require consideration—in particular, the estimated value of the presentations was much too high—and he recommended the Select Committee to whom it, would be referred to see whether it would not be desirable to revise the scale altogether, and to bring the amounts down to the bare market price of the livings. The great reason for his addressing their Lordships was to express his thanks to the Lord Chancellor for having endeavoured to solve this problem, and he believed that the noble and learned Lord had insured the gratitude of every clergyman, who recognised in this attempt at legislation the effort of a friendly hand.
  LORD CRANWORTHsaid, that if the principle of the Bill was merely the sale of small livings, and the application of the purchase money to their augmentation, he had no hesitation in expressing his imme-
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  diate assent to it. But he had only seen the Bill that day, and had had no opportunity of reading it, before being thus called upon to express an opinion upon its principle. If it was important that the Bill should be read a second time to-night instead of on the first night after the recess, he would put no obstacle in the way, as long as it was understood that he reserved to himself the right to criticise its provisions when it came from the Select Committee.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that if he had anticipated any discussion, he should hardly have thought it fair to have brought forward the second reading of the Bill so soon after its introduction. He had not himself been perfectly satisfied as to the details of the plan at the time he submitted it to their Lordships; and he had now listened very attentively to the criticisms of those details by the right rev. Prelates; and he hoped to see a great many more in the public prints. All that their Lordships were now asked to do was to consent to the principle that the presentation to certain livings should be sold, and the purchase money applied in the beat possible manner for the augmentation of small benefices. With regard to the market value estimated in the Bill, an eminent actuary whom he had consulted on the subject, though at first he expressed an opinion that the value taken was too high, after two days' consideration came to the conclusion that the terms were so advantageous that there could be no difficulty in obtaining the price calculated upon, and, indeed, that a higher estimate might have been prudently taken. Having derived confidence from that, he had adhered to his tables, merely, however, intending to submit them as a matter for their Lordships' discretion. He asked their Lordships to assent to the general principle of the Bill, the great object of which was to enable the advowsons of livings now in the hand of the Lord Chancellor to be transferred into the hands of the landed proprietors, who would be likely to take an interest in them. If the Bill was allowed to be read a second time, he would give notice of the names of the Peers who would form the Select Committee, and they could be nominated after Easter. His great object was to bring these advowsons into the hands of the landed proprietors, and he had consequently fixed the price at what might be considered a fancy price. He should now ask their Lordships

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  to give their consent to the second reading of the Bill; and if they acceded to his proposition, he should move that the measure be referred to a Select Committee. He would ask their Lordships to commit themselves to nothing but to the expediency of the general principle of the measure.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly and referred to a Select Committee.
  And on Tuesday, April 14, the Lords following were named of the Committee:—

  L. Abp. Canterbury.

  E. Powis.

  Ld. Chancellor,

  E. Ducie.

  L. Abp. York.

  V. Eversley.

  Ld. President,

  L. Bp. London,

  D. Somerset.

  L. Bp. Oxford.

  D. Marlborough,

  L. Wodehouse.

  E. Steward,

  E. Carnarvon.

  E. Derby.

  L. St. Leonards.

  E. Shaftesbury.

  L. Ebury.

  E. Stanhope.

  L. Chelmsford.

  L. Cranworth.

  L. Kings down.

  E. Chichester.

THE CLOONE LOAN FUND.

  ADDRESS FOR CORRESPONDENCE AND RETURNS.
  THE EARL OF LEITRIMrose to move an Address to Her Majesty for Copies of Correspondence and numerous Returns relating to the Cloone Charitable Loan Fund Society.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that without expressing an opinion whether the production of the Returns was desirable or not, he would ask the noble Earl to postpone his Motion until an opportunity was afforded for communicating with the Irish Government on the subject, and of learning whether they entertained any objection to the correspondence being presented to Parliament.
  THE EARL OF LEITRIMconsented.
  Motion postponed.

CORRUPT PRACTICES AT ELECTIONS BILL.
Bill read 1a, and to be printed. (No. 62.)
House adjourned at a quarter before Seven o'clock, to Tuesday, the 14th of April next, half past Ten o'clock.