Lords Sitting of 9 March 1863

MINUTES.
— SELECT COMMITTEE — Charging of Entailed Estates for Railways, appointed, and nominated.

BRAZIL,.—OBSERVATIONS.
THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, he Lad an appeal to make to the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Malmesbury) in reference to a notice which he gave on Friday, that he would call the attention of the House to the case in dispute with the Government of Brazil with regard to the officers of Her Majesty's ship Forte. He (the Duke of Somerset) had received a communication from the noble Earl at the head of the Foreign Office, stating that the question had been referred to the King of the Belgians, who had accepted the arbitration, and that under those circumstances it might be inconvenient to enter into a discussion upon the subject at the present time.
THE EARL OF MALMESBURYsaid, he had no apprehension, considering the great ability and clearness of judgment of His Majesty the King of the Belgians, that His Majesty's decision would be influenced by anything that might be said in either House of Parliament; but as he understood from the noble Duke that the Minister for Foreign Affairs was anxious, in the interests of the public service, that he should postpone his observations on the subject, he had no hesitation in saying at once that he would do so. At the same time, however, he could not help expressing his surprise at the appeal, inasmuch as the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs in another place had permitted himself, only three days before, to speak for a considerable time on the question, and to enter further into detail of the accusations against the Brazilian Government than appeared in the papers on their Lordships' table; having then added a now charge against the Brazilian Government, of having "manacled" the officers, a charge not anywhere mentioned in the papers before the House. But he could assure their Lordships, feeling what the noble Earl (Earl Russell) had said about the question being sub judice, he had not intended to give any opinion whatever as to which of the two parties to the dispute was right and which was wrong. It was perfectly evident to all their Lordships who had read the papers on the table that the unfortunate collision between Her Majesty's officers and the Brazilian police could not have taken place, and would not have taken place, but from the circumstance of the officers being in plain clothes. Looking at the question in a general point of view, and without reference to this particular case, he would press upon the noble Duke (the Duke of Somerset) the necessity of a reasonable observation of what he believed to be a most important regulation, and that was, that the officers should not be allowed to go on shore out of uniform. He did not desire that the rule should be pressed to an unwarrantable extent, so as to prevent officers who might be taking long journeys using the most convenient kind of clothing for the purpose; but he was sure that the noble Duke himself, with his knowledge of human nature and of the habits and feelings of young officers, who, having been confined a long time, were delighted to obtain a little liberty, must admit that these officers would be likely to have more respect

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for themselves—and, certainly, foreigners would have more respect for them—if they wore on shore the ordinary uniform of the service. On such an occasion as Saturday last, or great reviews, notice was very properly given that officers in Her Majesty's service would not he permitted to pass the lines, and that the police would not treat them as officers, unless they appeared in their uniform. The case against the Brazilian Government was that in the execution of their laws they offended the British navy. He did not say that we had not a right to be offended. All British citizens had a right to the protection of the Foreign Office wherever they might be; but in this case it could not be held that the British navy had suffered an insult, seeing that the officers were not wearing the uniform of the navy at the time of the occurrence complained of; and out of uniform they would have no legal authority even over their own men ashore. For these reasons he wished very much that the noble Duke would exercise his judgment and authority to prevent as much as possible what he was told was growing into a common custom in the navy—namely, permitting officers to go ashore in plain clothes.
THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, he believed the rule was that our officers should always appear in uniform in those countries with which we had little intercourse, or in which any local disturbances or other cause rendered the wearing of uniform necessary; but where, as had been the case in Brazil, the two nations were on the most friendly terms, officers when going into the country were permitted to go on shore without being in uniform. It was a matter in which the commanding officer of the station should be allowed to exercise his discretion, according to the circumstances.
THE EARL OF HARDWICKEsaid, he regretted to hear the latter speech of the noble Duke. 'No doubt, discipline, like everything else, was a fashion, and it must vary with the opinions of the day. The intention of uniform was not so much to dress a man up to look fine, as for the purpose of insuring a system of discipline over the men who wore it. If this were the case, he would put it to the noble Duke whether the wearing of uniform was not an important part of the discipline of the naval service which it was especially necessary to enforce in foreign countries. He regarded this as of very great import-
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ance. Before uniform was introduced and enforced it was no uncommon thing for men to throw away their muskets and run away; and there was no knowing which side a man was. With regard to the police, of what use were they, except as secret spies, unless they were in uniform? How otherwise could they gain the respect of the multitude? When he was in the navy, for an officer to leave his ship without wearing his uniform was unknown; to go over the side in a plain suit was a thing unknown. No doubt, when an officer went ashore and engaged a lodging he put on his plain coat; but when he did so, he took the consequences. The printed orders of the service directed an officer to wear his uniform constantly, and never take it off except to go to bed. If the officer in command or the governor of a port thought proper to wink at a violation of the order, that was one thing; it was altogether another for the head of the navy to lay it down that it was usual for officers to go on shore without uniform.
THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, he had only repeated what he had ascertained from officers in the service to be the practice; but he could not say whether the statement referred to officers leaving the ship in uniform. He knew that a custom had for a long time prevailed for officers to leave their ships in uniform and change their dress when they got on shore, and he saw no reason to make the practice in this respect more strict than it had been for years past. He had found that on nil occasions where the navy had been employed there had been no difficulty in preserving discipline, and the conduct of naval officers had been universally praiseworthy wherever they had gone on shore.

CHARGING OF ENTAILED ESTATES FOR RAILWAYS.

  SELECT COMMITTEE APPOINTED.
  EARL GREYrose to move that a Select Committee be appointed to inquire as to the expediency of extending the powers now possessed by landowners, to charge their estates with terminable annuities for the purposes of improvement, to the case of railways calculated to promote the value of their property. The noble Earl said, that he had no doubt he should be able to satisfy their Lordships of the propriety of the investigation for which he asked. Their Lordships were no doubt aware that some years ago, owing to the necessity

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  for applying capital to the drainage of land, and the difficulty experienced by many owners of land in raising it, Parliament gave power to owners of land to borrow money for draining, building, and various other permanent improvements; and if it could be shown to the Inclosure Commissioners that the proposed improvements would add to the permanent value of the estate, to raise the money by way of rent-charge, which should be a first charge upon the estate. Very large sums of money had been raised under these powers, especially for drainage, and by these means a great addition had been made to the permanent wealth of the country, much employment had been found for the labouring classes, and great benefit had been conferred upon the landowners themselves. Nor had he heard that any abuses had arisen. The Inclosure Commissioners had, be believed, used the powers intrusted to them with so much judgment and discretion that no holders of reversionary interests or prior incumbrances had been exposed to loss or injury. That being the case, it had been proposed that this power should be extended, so as to enable landlords to raise money on similar conditions and subject to similar restrictions, for the purpose of constructing or promoting railways which might benefit their estates. He was induced to bring the subject forward in consequence of its connection with a railway in which he was not greatly personally interested, because it hardly touched any of his property, but which he believed would, if made, be of great advantage to his neighbours. The promoters of the Bill for that railway, which was now before their Lordships' House, had addressed queries to the owners and occupiers both of lands which would be affected by this line and of lands which derived benefit from existing railways. In all cases the answers bad been that railway communication added very largely to the value of land. It benefited the land both by bringing to it manure, lime, coals, and other heavy articles, and by taking the produce away to market. The amount of increased value which was in this way conferred upon the land varied greatly, according to local circumstances; but the questions to which he had referred had been addressed to a considerable number of practical farmers, who spoke from their own experience, and none of their answers put the advantage so gained by the land at less than half-a crown an acre for arable
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  land, and 6d. or 1s. for pastures. In some cases the increase was very much larger, —in one instance as much as 10s. an acre; but in that case the occupier of the farm was largely engaged in the cultivation of potatoes, which were forwarded by railway to Newcastle and London. What was proposed, therefore, was, that the owners of land should be enabled to take shares in railways which would benefit their estates to the extent of the increased value which it could be shown that their property would receive from the construction of the line. To explain how this would operate, he would put an imaginary case. Suppose it was ascertained that the value of property would be increased by a railway to the extent of £100 a year; in that case it was proposed that an owner of land should be enabled by granting a rent-charge on his property for twenty-five years, at the rate of £100 a year, to raise a sum which at such a rate it was ascertained would amount to £1,500. The manner in which the scheme would operate would be, that while he would, on the one hand, have a rent-charge of £100 a year upon his property, he would, on the other, he in the receipt of a similar amount in consequence of its increased value. So far he would be neither a gainer nor a loser; but then whatever dividend the railway might be able to afford on the shares for £1,500 which he would have taken, would be so much clear profit; and beyond that, at the end of the twenty-five years, the owner himself, or his successors, would have the advantage of possessing his railway stock free from all charge and incumbrance. It was further proposed that no such rent-charge as he had described should be settled on the land, following the analogy of the case of drainage, until the railway had been absolutely completed. The scheme, in his opinion, was, so far as it went, a reasonable one, and would be found to be of great advantage to landowners. The great motive in favour of its adoption was, that it was found that there was a certain degree of discredit attaching to railway property, very much owing, he thought, to the course which Parliament had pursued with respect to it, and the unsatisfactory nature of the tribunals to which railway regulations were submitted; the consequence of which was great difficulty in raising the necessary capital to construct a line which was not intended to pass through a great town or was not promoted by a great existing company. It often happened, however, that lines which were proposed

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  to run through agricultural districts would, if carried out, be of the utmost utility; but the circumstances of their case were such, that unless such powers as he had indicated were granted, it was almost impossible to get owners of property to take shares in them to the extent which was desirable. Now, it appeared to him that where a railway was sought to be constructed for local objects, it might well be entitled to the support of Parliament, although it might not be promoted by a speculative attorney or engineer. Nor did he wish to disguise from their Lordships the fact, that the general inquiry which he advocated, with the view of deciding upon the value of a certain general principle, had reference to a Private Bill which lay upon the table. He, however, sought to press the matter upon the attention of the House mainly because he was of opinion that a Private Bill submitted to Parliament, which involved a general principle capable of general application, ought not to be left altogether to the discretion of a special Committee, to be sanctioned or disapproved according to the views of its Members. If it was desirable that landowners should have the powers which he had pointed out conferred upon them, that ought, he thought, to be done nut by a particular measure, but by an Act of Parliament applicable to all cases. As the Motion which he was about to make had reference to a Private Bill for constructing a railway through Northumberland, which was now before the House, and of which he himself was one of the promoters, he should not propose that his own name should be included in the list of the Committee, if their Lord-! ships should think fit to grant it. The noble Earl concluded by moving—
  "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire whether it is proper that the Power already given to Land Owners to charge their Estates with Terminable Annuities, in order to raise Money for the Improvement of their Land by draining and building, should be extended, so as to enable them to raise Money on similar Terms for the purpose of taking Shares in Railways calculated to increase the Value of their Property: And further to inquire under what Conditions and Limitations such Power ought to be granted, if given at all."
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, he should be the last person to seek to prevent the, House from instituting an inquiry with a view to obtaining knowledge on any subject of public or private legislation. The noble Earl, however, had argued that what he proposed was the same principle as that which authorized the borrowing of money
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  upon land for drainage purposes, but in truth the principle was a very different one. Another circumstance was that this power, in reference to railways, had never been asked for down to the present Session, when such power was sought in one instance only. Every line, therefore, in the kingdom had been made without the existence of any such power. It seems to him certain that no man who held landed property in fee would be likely to be disposed to make a charge upon it in favour of railways; and if the owners in fee would not exercise the privilege, as he believed they would not, it seemed to him extremely imprudent to give power to the owners of settled estates to take up shares in railways. There was no kind of property upon which it was less desirable to give a power to make charges than settled estates, and especially since the imposition of the succession duty. In general, five years were allowed to railway companies to finish their works, and where the companies were not rich the period was often extended. The owners of settled estates during those five years would have to find the interest of the money without any chance of benefit; and if any one of them died in the first year, his successors would have that additional burden, besides having to meet the charge for succession duty. The case of railways was totally different from the case of drainage. Railways were very seldom made within the estimates; but the cost of drainage works could be accurately and easily ascertained. When the drainage was done, the return was immediate; and although tenants who had leases, knowing the exact advantage, would consent to pay an increased rent for drainage, he was confident they would not pay a single shilling more for the vague chance of benefiting by a railway being brought near their holdings. He thought that at all events the matter should be dealt with by a public Bill, and not by private legislation. If railways were promoted for mere speculative purposes, they ought to be rejected; but if they were sanctioned because of their public utility, the same privileges should be granted to all without any distinction. Some drainage companies had powers different from others, but he was not at all sure it would not be expedient to pass a public Act with regard to those works, placing every charge for drainage upon precisely the same footing. He should not oppose the appointment of a Committee; but in his opinion

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  the proposal was mischievous and impracticable.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the speech of the noble Lord was not at all in favour of the principle contended for by the noble Earl who originated this discussion; but having heard diametrically opposite opinions expressed by the two noble Lords, he was induced to think it was a very proper subject for inquiry. He had not himself formed any opinion whether the proposition was desirable or not; but it seemed to him, that while it was most important to abstain from overburdening with charges the successors to settled estates, they ought, whenever it was possible, to do anything which would remove some of the disadvantages connected with settled property. It certainly was very desirable that that subject should be inquired into by a Select Committee of their Lordships. Whether the question was one for private legislation, or whether it ought to be dealt with in a general public Bill, was a point for the Select Committee; and if it admitted the principle contended for by the noble Earl, the mode of carrying it out might very properly be settled by the Committee. He must say, he thought it would be a great public disadvantage if the noble Earl (Earl Grey) abstained from serving on this Committee. The fact of his being interested in promoting a Railway Bill was an in adequate reason why the public should be deprived of his services.
  EARL STANHOPEalso hoped that the noble Earl would consent to serve on the Committee. His principal object in rising, however, was to suggest the expediency of inquiring into a subject akin to this but of much larger scope—the power of trustees in dealing with monies vested in them. He would not undertake to say that the law on the subject required amendment, but it certainly required consideration.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that an Act of Parliament had been passed last Session, which gave large powers to trustees in dealing with trust monies. It was an often-quoted saying, that high interest meant bad security. The rate of interest obtained by vesting in the funds was the standard of good security. Some additional interest might be gained by investing in mortgages, but, generally speaking, he should very much deprecate giving extended powers of investment to trustees charged with the duty of providing for per-, sons who could exercise no judgment of
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  their own. With regard to the inquiry desired by the noble Earl, there would be great difficulty in dealing with the speculative abstract question whether a railway, not actually passing through particular land, could be said to conduce to the value of that land. He would be sorry to see any such matter made the subject of inquiry before a Committee; and he could not even see his way clear to its being made the subject of judicial inquiry with any amount of security or satisfaction in the result. Still, he should be very glad if the proposed Committee were appointed. One evil often came before the courts which was of a very serious character. A landowner succeeded to an estate as tenant for life; he found the farm buildings in a state of great dilapidation, and yet he was unable to raise money to make the necessary repairs. He earnestly hoped that the result of the inquiry would be, not to allow the general principle of the law to be broken in upon by special powers granted to particular companies for the prosecution of a speculative scheme, but that it would gather together all the different powers which it was desirable landowners should possess, and embody them in some general public Act. At present the law was in a most lamentable state of confusion. Drainage Company A had one set of powers; Railway Company B had a different set—all granted by private legislation, and without the extent or application of those powers being brought in a proper manner under the consideration of Parliament.
  Motion agreed to.
  Select Committee appointed:— And the Lords following were named of the Committee:—

  E. Devon.

  E. Stradbroke.

  E. Hardwicke.

  V. Eversley.

  E. Carnarvon.

  L. Wodehouse.

  K. Romney.

  L. Stanley of Alderley.

  E. Grey.

  L. Llanover.

  E. Minto.

  L. Taunton.

  E. Cathcart.

RECEPTION OF THE PRINCESS ALEX- ANDRA—POLICE ARRANGEMENTS.
THE EARL OF DALHOUSIE: My Lords, I desire to call the attention of your Lordships and of Her Majesty's Government to a matter that deserves the earliest and most serious consideration. In the general rejoicing connected with the reception given to the Royal lady who landed on our shores on Saturday it is painful to think that any circumstance

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should have occurred to create just animadversion; but I cannot help thinking, from what I have read in the journals of this day, that such is the case; and from having held for six years a position of responsibility in the Home Office, I conceive myself not unwarranted in drawing the attention of your Lordships and of the Government to the facts. So far as the earlier part of the procession traversed ground with which the administration of the Metropolitan Police is concerned — that is, from the Bricklayers' Arms to London Bridge—all went smoothly, and, if I may use the expression, "merry as a marriage bell;" but on the arrival of the procession at London Bridge there ensued, as I read in all the public prints, a scene of confusion, and certainly a delay, which ought not to have taken place, and would not have taken place if proper precautions had been observed. I perceive that on the centre of London Bridge the Royal carriages were delayed for no shorter period than a full half-hour; that again a greater delay took place opposite the Mansion House; and that there was such a scene of confusion that the populace were permitted to break through all regulations, and even to approach so near the Royal party as to lay hands upon the carriages in which they were seated. Such is the statement given in the newspapers. I hold this to he an extremely indecorous proceeding, and I attribute it entirely to the want of a proper force there; and I am sorry to say that I must attribute that to a feeling of false pride and self-sufficiency on the part of the authorities of the City of London, who, having had offered to them the aid of the Metropolitan Police, declined it on the ground that they were able to perform this duty by means of their own force. That has been proved to be a very great mistake; and it is right that steps should be taken so that such a mistake shall not occur again. On the occasion of Saturday the whole people were striving who should do most honour to the Royal personages who were then passing through their streets. It was an occasion of the greatest joy, and every one vied with the other to show hospitality and honour to those distinguished persons; and I say it is the duty of the Government to see that the City is permanently provided with a police force adequate, upon occasions of joy as well as of disturbance, to maintain public order and decorum. I remember that some time ago
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a proposition was made for having but one police force for the whole metropolis; but circumstances arose which prevented so beneficial an arrangement being carried into effect. I trust that the circumstances that occurred on Saturday will so convince my right hon. Friend at the head of the Home Department of the necessity of having but one police force for this great metropolis, that he will lose no time in introducing a measure for that purpose. There can be no more opportune time for so doing, for the City Commissioner of Police has just died, and no new appointment has yet taken place. I ask no question of Her Majesty's Government on the present occasion, but I simply call their attention to the facts that occurred in the streets on Saturday in that part of the metropolis called the City of London; and I have no doubt, when they consider the whole matter, that they will have little hesitation as to what measure should be introduced.
THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLEsaid, that his noble Friend the President of the Council (Earl Granville) had left the House, being no, doubt unaware, as he was, that his noble Friend was going to address their Lordships. He (the Duke of Newcastle) happened to be in this position, that he had not had time to read in the papers one word of the accounts of what took place on Saturday, and therefore he was quite unaware of the circumstances. He certainly had heard that there was some confusion near St. Paul's, but that was al that had reached his ears in reference to disturbance or interruption. He could not, therefore, be expected, in fairness to the parties concerned, now to answer the observations which had been made; but he had no doubt that his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary would pay proper attention to a subject of so much importance. The circumstances of Saturday were so singular that they could not be expected to occur again for many years; but his noble Friend was aware that the question of the amalgamation of the two bodies of police was not now brought forward for the first time; and, speaking for himself, he must say he regretted that feeling of independence on the part of the City which hail hitherto prevented it being carried into effect, he did not think that the City police could be so efficient to perform its duty as if it formed part of an amalgamated body; but that was a matter for the Home Secretary, who would certainly look into it.
THE EARL OF HARDWICKEsaid, he understood that the noble Earl who had introduced this subject did not intend in the smallest degree to attribute the disturbance to any fault upon the part of the people. Nothing could have been more kindly than their feeling on this occasion. The fact was, that there was a large space opposite the Mansion House which was entirely filled with people, who, being anxious to see, pressed towards the Royal carriages. Everybody knew that the pressure from a column of men set in motion was such that hardly any power could resist it, and it was sure to break down all ordinary resistance. He understood that even one of the cavalry escort was so pressed upon that his horse was lifted up. All this pressure arose from the loyal and affectionate feeling of the people, and from their strong desire to see the Princess, and he doubted whether any amount of police force could Lave kept back the masses at the Mansion House.
THE EARL OF MALMESBURYobserved, that barriers were usually put up to keep a crowd back, and also to protect the people themselves, when any great assembly was expected; but he believed that at the spot in question there were no barriers. If it had not been for the excellent feeling displayed by the people, some dreadful accident would almost certainly have happened.
LORD LLANOVERsaid, that during the time he was First Commissioner of Public Works it was his duty to recommend a measure for the better management of the metropolis, and to inquire into the state of the existing metropolitan institutions; and one of the matters brought most seriously before him was the inconvenience occasioned by the double jurisdiction of the police. Various Governments had had it in contemplation to adopt some plan for amalgamating the police, and for many reasons this would, in his opinion, he a most desirable object. The City of London was but a mere speck in the map of the metropolis, and contained less than 130,000 inhabitants out of a population, within the metropolitan limits, of nearly 3,000,000. The jurisdiction of the metropolitan police inclosed that of the City police, and it seemed an absurd anomaly to have these two separate authorities. If Sir Richard Mayne had had the whole management of the police on Saturday, he was quite sure that order would have been
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as well kept within the City as it was from the Bricklayers' Arms to the foot of London Bridge, and from Temple Bar to Hyde Park Corner. Being at the window of Apsley House on Saturday, he saw at Hyde Park Corner a mass of people quite as thick, he was informed, as any collected in the open space opposite the Mansion House. So dense was the crowd that it seemed almost impossible to open a passage through it. By an order issued by Sir Richard Mayne, no carriages were allowed to enter there after three o'clock. At that time all carriages were stopped and turned back; and in about a quarter of an hour a space was cleared for the procession, and not a single person attempted to cross it. The City authorities were not used to deal with such emergencies, nor had they the same amount of force at their disposal; but on this occasion they refused the offer of a portion of the Household Brigade and of the metropolitan police, and said they would manage the City line of the procession with their own people, and in consequence of this determination to reject nil extraneous aid, the greatest confusion had ensued, and most serious inconveniences had occurred. He thought this would be a good opportunity for the Government to consider whether an amalgamation of the police might not now be effected, so that one body might henceforth have jurisdiction over the whole metropolis.
House adjourned at half past Six o'clock, to Thursday next, half past Ten o'clock.