Lords Sitting of 2 March 1863

MINUTES.
— Select Committee. — Committee of Selection on Opposed Private Bills, nominated.
PUBLIC BILLS.—First Reading.—Bills of Exchange and Notes (Metropolis) [H. C.] (No. 26).
Second Reading.—Drainage of Land (Ireland) (No. 18), and referred to a Select Committee; Naval Coast Volunteers Act Amendment [H. L] (No. 19).
Committee.—Prince and Princess of Wales' Annuities (No. 24).
Report, —Prince and Princess of Wales' Annuities (No. 24).
Third Reading.—Gardens in Towns Protection [H. L.] (No. 14), and passed.

OPPOSED PRIVATE BILLS.—SELECT COMMITTEE.
The Lords following; viz. — L. COLVILLE of CULROSS, L. PONSONBY, L. COLCHESTER, L. STANLEY of ALDERLEY—were appointed, with the Chairman of Committees, a Committee to select and propose to the House the Names of the Five Lords to form a Select Committee for the Consideration of each Opposed Private Bill.
PRINCE AND PRINCESS OF WALES' ANNUITIES BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into a Committee, and the Lords Summoned, read: Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into a Committee on the said Bill; agreed to: House in Committee accordingly; Bill reported, without Amendment; and to be read 3a To-morrow.
BILLS OF EXCHANGE AND NOTES (METROPOLIS) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a To-morrow; and Standing Orders Nos. 37 and 38 to be considered To-morrow, in order to their being dispensed with; and the LORDS SUMMONED: (The Lord President.) (No. 26.)
DRAINAGE OF LAND (IRELAND) BLIL. [No. 18.]

  SECOND READING. REFERRED TO SELECT COMMITTEE.
  VISCOUNT LIFFORD, in moving the second reading of the Bill, said, that it came up to their Lordships' House under circumstances which must be regarded as satisfactory, inasmuch as it had passed the other House with the general approval of the Irish Members. This formed the eleventh Bill on this subject presented to the British Parliament during Her present Majesty's reign. The fact was, that no part of the United Kingdom required draining so much as Ireland. Centuries age thousands of acres of some of the finest woods in Europe were, by want of draining, arising from insecurity of life and property gradually sunk in the peat mosses, and large tracts of arable land in Ireland, were rendered comparatively unprofitable from the want of an effective system of drainage. Hitherto those works had been generally done by the Government. The present measure, however, recognised the self-reliant principle, which, he thought, was best calculated to confer upon the country the advantages sought for. The provisions of the Bill were somewhat similar to those of the English Act, the 24 &25 Viet., c. 133. The initiation of its operation was given to the Irish Board of Works. Upon the application of a proportion of the proprietors of any land requiring a system of drainage, the Commissioners of the Board of Public Works were to send an Inspector to the district indicated, and upon his report the Commissioners may, if they think proper, and if two-thirds of the proprietors consent, constitute the district a drainage district. The management of the works was then intrusted to an incorporate Drainage Board, the members of which were to be elected by the proprietors of the district. The 20th and following clauses defined the general powers of these Drainage Boards. The 36th and 37th sections empower the Drainage Boards to borrow money on debenture. When the works were completed, the Drainage Board were to make au award, by which

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  the proportions of the expenses were to be charged on the lands within the district. The Board were also empowered to determine the amount of increased rent to be paid in respect of lands improved; and were to hold annual meetings, and fix the amount to be raised for maintenance and repairs for the ensuing year. The Bill also contains provisions, giving power to neighbouring owners to procure outfalls. Such being the nature of the measure, he trusted their Lordships would assent to its passing as speedily as possible, because in the present distressed state of Ireland, occasioned by the occurrence of three consecutive bad harvests, the Bill would confer a great boon upon the country, by the employment it would open up to the labouring portion of the population. The distress that existed in Ireland had been borne with remarkable patience. This Bill would give great facilities for the relief of that distress, and he trusted their Lordships would pass it without delay.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.
  THE EARL OF LUCANsaid, he was quite willing to allow the Bill to be read a second time, if the noble Lord would let it be referred to a Select Committee. The reference to a Select Committee need not prevent its passing before Easter.
  VISCOUNT LIFFORDsaid, that he was anxious the Bill should be passed without unnecessary delay, and therefore he was unwilling to refer it to a Select Committee.
  THE EARL OF CORKsaid, it was a Bill of eighty-five clauses, and the provisions were of such a nature that they could better be discussed in a Select Committee. It had been hurried up to this House, and required the consideration of owners of land in Ireland. He hoped his noble Friend would not persist in his objection to the course proposed by the noble Earl.
  THE EARL OF BELMOREjoined in the appeal to allow the Bill to go to a Select Committee.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, it had been generally understood by the Irish Peers that the Bill would be referred to a Select Committee.
  Motion agreed to
  Bill read 2a accordingly; and referred to a Select Committee: The Lords following were named of the Committee: —
  E. DERBY, E. ESSEX, E. LUCAN, E. BELMORE, V. LIFFORD, V. HAWARDEN, L. BOYLE, L. PONSONBY, L. DlGBY, L. WODEHOUSE, L. CROFTON, L. SOMERHILL, L. DARTREY, and L. LYVEDEN.

NAVAL COAST VOLUNTEERS ACT AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]—(No. 19.)

  SECOND READING.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSET, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said, that they were in a better position with regard to reserves for the navy than at any former period. On the first of February, 1863, the number of Royal Naval Reserve men was 14,000; of Coast Volunteers, 8,000; of Coastguard on shore, 3,000; and of Coastguard in ships, 2,000. The total number of men available as a reserve was 28,800; and as the number was in creasing week by week, they might expect, by the end of the year, to have 30,000 men available as reserve seamen. The only drawback to this great scheme of a Reserve was the provision originally introduced in order to induce the men to join the Coast Volunteers, that the Coast Volunteers were not to be taken more than 300 miles from the shores of the country. The arrangement was not then objected to; but now, it being considered that some inconvenience might arise in case of emergency, the Bill proposed to abolish that limit with regard to men who should join the force hereafter. For instance, vessels might be manned principally with ordinary seamen, or men of the Royal Naval Reserve, but might have a few Coast Volunteers; and if those vessels were in pursuit of a privateer, or required to proceed even a few miles beyond the prescribed limit for the protection of trade, or for any purpose, the service must be given up, unless they chose to break faith with the men. It was of the utmost importance that faith should be kept with the men, and that the terms on which they entered should not be violated. It was therefore proposed to reserve to the present Coast Volunteers the limit on which they had taken service, but not to enter any more with that limitation. This alteration might possibly lead to some diminution of the Coast Volunteer force, but, seeing how the Royal Naval Volunteer force was increasing, the advantage of the absence of the restriction as to distance would more than compensate for the disadvantage of that diminution. The Bill contained only one clause. He had now explained the principle, and he asked their Lordships to read it a second time.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.
  THE EARL OF HARDWICKEsaid, that the original intention of the Act was to

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  enable fishermen and seafaring persons on the coast to join the reserve force for the defence of the country, and he would suggest that it would be better without any definite law, that the Admiralty should let it be understood that men settled with their wives and families would not be taken out of the Channel except on a great emergency. There were many men who would be willing to serve in the Channel who would not like to be despatched on foreign service. The Bill itself was a very good one; but he was afraid the Bill would have the effect of inducing many men who were at present members of the Reserve to withdraw; but he hoped they would be fairly dealt with by the Admiralty. He might take that opportunity of making a few remarks upon the state of the navy. When the Royal Commission sat to consider the Manning of the Navy, one of the most important branches of their inquiry related to the question of what the peace establishment should be, bearing in mind the numbers of the volunteer force. According to the best information, it was deemed that it would be sufficient for the protection of our coasts and for other purposes if they had 56,000 seamen and marines, together with a reserve of 30,000 Volunteers available on an emergency—as, for instance, in case of war suddenly breaking out with France, which was the only naval Power of serious importance. Looking at the question as a naval officer merely, he should be glad to see a great navy; but looking at it not only as a naval officer, but as a Member of Parliament, and having regard to the finances of the country, he was surprised that the Government should have proposed in their Estimates so large a naval force for the present year as 76,000 men. In 1854 they had a naval force of 61,400 men; and in 1855, the year of the Crimean war, they had a force of 64,432 men. But now, in addition to the 76,000 men proposed in the Estimates, they had a powerful naval reserve, amounting to nearly 30,000 men. If this country did not stand in need of such a large naval force, they had no right to put their hands in the pockets of the people to such an extent. He was not in the secrets of the Cabinet, and the only information of which he was possessed was derived from the newspapers; but he was at a loss to understand what cause there was to keep up such a large naval force in time of peace. He believed that we had a larger
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  naval force now than since the great war. Did the Government think that the United States were in a condition to bring on a European war? He confessed that he did not see any cause for alarm in that quarter, for he thought that that country had been already sufficiently weakened by the civil contest in which it was engaged to be dangerous to the peace of Europe; and though there were some threatening elements in the Polish difficulty, that question had not arisen when the Estimates were framed. He hoped the noble Duke would state to their Lordships the reasons why it was thought necessary to keep up such an immense naval force.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSET: My Lords, I did not expect, on the second reading of this Volunteer Bill, to be called on to go into the whole question of the naval provision of the year; but I must make a few observations in answer to the speech of the noble Earl. I agree with him that we ought not to make use of the Coast Volunteers for the general purpose of manning the navy. They are only entered for one year, and in the event of a war of course it would be impossible so to make use of them. The 30,000 men of the Reserve are never to be used except on a great emergency, when this country itself is in danger. Of course the Government would be slow to issue the proclamation, unless circumstances had occurred which were of such vast importance as to make it absolutely necessary that they should adopt a measure which would disturb the whole mercantile marine of the country. In regard to the manning of the fleet, the noble Earl seems to have forgotton that portion of the Report of the Commission which recommends that a force of 20,000 marines shall be kept up. It is always inexpedient to keep up a large force of marines unless you can send a considerable proportion to sea; and I have thought it right not to raise the force above the number of 18,000. The Commission recommended that we should always have a number of men in all our seaports, to be ready for any ships which were put into commission. Your Lordships may remember that in 1859, though there was a bounty of £10 offered, ships were kept many weeks in port waiting for men; but now I am happy to say that whenever a ship is put into commission, in a day or two I hear that she has got all her men. We get the best men, too, for we now reject all men who have not good characters, or who may he phy-

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  sically unfit for the service. We have got, therefore, not only a large force, but a good force. The noble Earl must deduct from the 76,000 men the 18,000 marines, the 9,000 boys, and also those men who are employed in the protection of the revenue, amounting to several thousands, who are now reckoned part of the navy. Though the state of our foreign relations is satisfactory, yet there are disturbances in different parts of the world which make it unadvisable largely to reduce our naval force. I would point to the far East—to China and Japan—and I would say, that looking to the disturbances in which we have been involved in those distant parts of the world, and the expenditure which we have been forced to incur, it would be unadvisable suddenly and rapidly to reduce our naval force there. It would be bad policy, and it might lead to fresh disturbance and a new outbreak, and might necessitate another naval expedition to vindicate the honour of our flag. Again, a large force is needed in consequence of the disturbances in North America. Our trade is continually liable to alarm and interruption, and it looks to the Admiralty for protection. Every one of our island possessions in that part of the world asks for the presence of a ship to see that they are protected from vessels of one side or the other, which might otherwise not be very particular in respecting the Queen's proclamation of neutrality. Governors of colonies are continually asking for vessels; and Admiral Milne, the commander on the station, a man of great prudence and judgment, and who, having been at the Admiralty, knows the importance of economy, has frequently written to me to say that it would not be for the public service to reduce our force on that station. In the Mediterranean we have been able to make a large reduction in consequence of the state of our relations with the Powers of Europe. I fully agree with the noble Earl in the importance of economy in this branch of the public service, and I carefully considered in what departments reductions might judiciously and safely be carried out. I could not, consistently with my duty, recommend to the Government a reduction in the number of men; but in the Department of Stores, I found that we had a very large supply on hand, and that the consumption was comparatively small. In that Department, therefore, we have been able to make a reduction; but still, at the end of the year, the navy will be in
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  a better condition as regards timber and many other stores than it has been at any time within the last twenty years.
  Motion, agreed to.
  Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.
  House adjourned at Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.