COMMITTEE. (Hansard, 25 June 1863)

§ THE DUKE OF RICHMOND
Said, that in moving the rejection of this clause he did so without any feeling of hostility towards the great Volunteer movement. But if the movement was as popular as they were all bound to admit it was, a bad compliment: was paid to it by asking for compulsory powers in order that the various Volunteer corps might obtain practising grounds. For this purpose it was proposed to give Lords Lieutenant an arbitrary and unusual power, which few of their Lordships would be willing to have conferred upon them, and still fewer would be Willing to exercise. The Secretary for War might refer to the Defence Act; but it was not a parallel case, as it only related to the coast defences of the country. So far as he had heard, there was no ground for Coming to Parliament for such compulsory powers. It had not been shown that Volunteer corps were less efficient, or that any practical inconvenience had arisen from the want of them. With regard to the persons' whose property was to be taken, he did not think, that after the Lord Lieutenant had recommended the taking of the ground, and the Secretary for War had certified in its favour, the owner would have much chance of offering a successful opposition to the measure when it came before Parliament for its sanction. The clause provided that the ground should be selected with due regard to the "safety and convenience of the public;" but the owner, to whom the target practice might be very unsafe and inconvenient, was entirely 1428 overlooked. If there was any evil to remedy, which he doubted, it was so small that it did not warrant such an interference with the rights of private property, and he should therefore move the omission of the clause.

EARL DE GREY AND RIPON
said, he was not surprised that this clause should have attracted attention, but he thought the noble Duke was in error in supposing that the main responsibility would be thrown upon the Lord Lieutenant. The Lord Lieutenant's certificate was merely required with a view to provide additional security that no land should be taken unnecessarily. According to an Amendment which he had introduced, there was to be a certificate— That a safe and convenient ground for shooting and drilling cannot be obtained by the corps, within a reasonable distance of the head-quarters of the corps, unless the land mentioned in that behalf in the certificate is taken compulsorily. After the certificate was given a Petition would be presented to the Secretary of State, who would make inquiry in the same way as, in the case of Provisional Orders under the Local Government Act. Having done that, he would make a Provisional Order, which would require the sanction of an Act of Parliament. The object of the clause was to render applications for private Acts unnecessary, and the question was whether the interests of the Volunteer corps required such legislation. No doubt, in country districts the necessity did not exist; but in the neighbourhood of large towns it certainly did. Thus, in the metropolis there were twenty-six corps whose practice range was the Government range at Woolwich, which they, of course, could only use when it was not wanted by the regular troops. The consequence was that these corps were debarred from proper opportunities of practice. Now, Volunteer corps ought to have special facilities for the practice of rifle shooting; for while Volunteers could not attain more than a certain amount of proficiency in drill, they were able, from their intelligence and the interest which most of them took in rifle practice, to acquire great proficiency with that weapon. So important was this proficiency considered that Parliament, on the recommendation of a Royal Commission, had lately decided that one-third of the grant—10s. out of 30s.—should be dependent on the Volunteers undergoing a considerable amount of musketry instruct- 1429 tion practice, involving the firing of a considerable number of rounds during the year. But in a great many cases in large towns it would be extremely difficult for Volunteers to obtain, this sum, and to satisfy the requirements of the Government, unless they had means which they did not now possess for obtaining practice ranges. Some time ago an Act was passed giving facilities to Volunteer corps to obtain ranges voluntarily, but it had not resulted in their obtaining them. It appeared, therefore, to the late Sir George Lewis, whose opinion would have great weight with their Lordships, that these clauses were justified by the needs of the Volunteers, and were almost a necessary corollary of the Vote of Parliament, which was made to depend on the efficiency of the men as shots. The rejection of these clauses would, he believed, be regarded with much regret by a considerable portion of the Volunteer force, who were situated as he had described, and would interfere with their attainment of efficiency in the use of the rifle. At the same time, if the general opinion of the House was adverse to these clauses, he should not be disposed to insist upon their retention.

§ THE EARL OF DERBY
hoped the noble Earl would consent to abandon the clauses. The powers asked for were unusual and extensive, and were an interference with the rights of private property of an extraordinary character which did not appear to be justified by any necessity. He would wish to know from the Secretary of State whether he expected that any great inconvenience to the Volunteer force would result from the abandonment of these clauses. If numerous cases could be shown in which it would be impossible for Volunteer corps to obtain practice grounds without the assistance of these clauses, then the House might be disposed to allow them to pass, objectionable as they were, even in their amended form. But if there was no absolute necessity for these clauses, he hoped they would be withdrawn, or at least postponed.

§ EARL GRANVILLE
thought the clauses would be very useful, and would remind the House that similar powers were possessed by the regular army. But he would suggest to his noble Friend the Secretary for War to calculate the respective forces on either side of the House, and under these circumstances he would suggest the withdrawal of the clauses, his noble Friend reserving to himself the right, 1430 if it should be found necessary, to reintroduce them at some future time.

§ THE EARL OF DERBY
said, he always had entertained a high opinion of the noble Earl's discretion, but he confessed he had never seen that discretion more remarkably exhibited than on the present occasion.

EARL DE GREY AND RIPON
said, he would not press the clauses, but would propose Amendments on bringing up the Report to preserve to the Volunteers the permissive powers of the existing Act.