Lords Sitting of 25 June 1863

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Land Drainage (Provisional Orders)* (No. 160); Inclosure (No. 2)* (No. 161); Thames Embankment (South Side) * (No. 162); Passengers Act Amendment* (No. 163); Pier and Harbour Orders Confirmation * (No. 164).
Second Reading—Waywardens' Contracts [H.L.] (No. 148).; Naval Medical Supplemental Fund Society Winding-up-Act, 1861, Amendment (No. 102); Sale of Mill Sites, &c. (Ireland)* (No. 105); Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) (No. 136), and referred to Select Committee.
Select Committee—Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Bill (List of the Committee).
Committee—Leases and Sales of Settled Estates Act Amendment (No. 42 & 158); African Slave Trade Treaty* (No. 129); Volunteers (No. 140); Officers of Royal Naval Reserve* (No. 131); Inland Revenue* (No. 128); Militia Pay*.
Report—African Slave Trade Treaty*; Security from Violence* (No. 157); Inland Revenue*; Militia Pay*.
Third Reading—Thames Embankment (North Side)* (No. 151).

WAYWARDENS' CONTRACTS BILL [H.L.]

  (NO. 148) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD REDESDALE, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said, his object was to prevent way wardens from contracting for any works within their own districts, which were under the control of the Board of which they were members.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, he was informed by the Home Secretary that the Bill was entirely unnecessary, as the case was provided form the Highways Act, by which such contracts were prohibited under a penalty and the Highways Act of last Session provided that all qualifications and disqualifications of surveyors of highways, and waywardens which existed under the old law should continue in force.
  LORD REDESDALEwas perfectly convinced the Home Secretary was in error. The Highways Act provided that all powers, duties, rights, and incapacities which formerly attached to surveyors of highways should attach to the Highway Board, but it did not say that the incapacities should attach to each individual member of the Board; because, if so, the duties would also attach to each member,
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  and the whole management would be thrown into utter confusion. At all events, the Bill could do no harm if it were passed, and it might accomplish what was intended but had not been effected.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, there would be no objection to read the Bill a second time on the understanding that the opinion of the Law Officers should be obtained before the next stage.
  Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

LEASES AND SALES OF SETTLED ESTATES ACT AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]—(NO. 42.

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order): The Lord Chancellor.
  LORD CHELMSFORDmoved the insertion of a short clause repealing the 21st section of the Act of 1856.
  After a few words from Lord EBURY, the Clause was agreed to.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORproposed a new Clause—
  "It shall be lawful for the Court of Chancery, at any time, and from time to time, by an order to be obtained On petition in a summary way, of any trustees or trustee, or other persons or person now or hereafter having authority, either by way of trust or power, or otherwise, to mortgage, sell, exchange, make partition of, or enfranchise any settled estate, to extend or vary such authority in such manner as, having regard to the local or other circumstances of the estate, and the permanent interests of all persons entitled and to be entitled to such settled estate, shall appear to the Court to be expedient, and so that the Court may appoint in lieu of such person or persons any other person or persons to exercise any such authority, or to receive the consideration money (if any) payable on any such mortgage, sale, exchange, partition, or enfranchisement, or any part of such money, and may make such orders for the investment, application, or disposition of such money as the Court shall think fit; and every order made as aforesaid shall enable the donee or donees of such authority to exercise the same, as so extended or varied, either with, or, if the Court shall think fit, without the approval or further sanction of the Court, and shall not prejudice the right to exercise such authority in its original form; and any such extension or variation as aforesaid may include the sale, or, if the Court shall approve, the gratuitous alienation of portions of the settled estate for the construction of railways by incorporated companies, and for the investment of any money received as aforesaid in subscribing for or purchasing any shares in railway companies; provided that such railways or railway shall in all cases be so situated, planned, or constructed as that the present

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  or future existence thereof does or will considerably and permanently increase the value of such settled estate."
  LORD ST. LEONARDSsaid, he should oppose the clause. Everything in these days was to be done by the Court of Chancery. Now, this Court had its own duties to perform; and if business was transferred to it which was not properly within its province, great injury would be done to the administration of justice. The clause enabled the tenant for life, or any person having an interest in settled property, to go to the Court of Chancery, and ask the Court to appoint new trustees who might have the power to sell the settled estates. Where such property was sold, care was usually taken that the money should be laid out in the purchase of other estates of like qualities and settled to the like uses. But here the Court of Chancery was to be empowered, if it thought fit, to allow the trustees to sell, or to give the settled property to a railway company. Under such a power the interests of the remainderman might be seriously prejudiced, and he hoped therefore that the clause would not be agreed to.
  LORD CRANWORTHsaid, that experience of the working of the Act which had been passed while he held the Great Seal proved that the only danger to be guarded against was any possible injury to parties beyond the entail. The proposition of his noble and learned Friend (the Lord Chancellor) was simply, that if the Court of Chancery thought it would be for the benefit of the parties interested in the estate that railways should be made, power should be given to the person in possession to give or to sell a portion of land for the purposes of the railway, the proceeds of any sale to be invested in shares of the railway. Whether the power to give the land should be conferred might be questioned, but the amount would be so small that no injury could be done to the estate. In certain cases the power to assist the formation of railways would greatly tend to the benefit of the estate. He thought the clause would be very useful if modified a little, and more happily worded.
  LORD PORTMANobjected to the clause altogether. He thought that the interests of the remainderman were not sufficiently protected; and he saw no means by which it was possible for the Court of Chancery to ascertain how the value of an estate would be increased by a particular railway; and he objected to power being given to mortgage estates under such circumstances.
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  If the matter were one which should be dealt with at all, it should certainly be dealt with by a general Bill regulating the way in which estates should be encumbered for various purposes besides making railways.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORdefended the clause, which had been drawn in accordance with the recommendation of the Select Committee.
  EARL GREYsaid, he was perfectly certain that the more this subject was considered, the more desirable it would be felt that the power proposed to be given should be granted. Experience showed that it was perfectly practicable to estimate the increased value given to land by the proximity of railways. There was so general an opinion entertained in the Select Committee that the object now proposed should be provided for by a public and not by a private Act, that he trusted their Lordships would affirm the principle of the proposed clause.
  EARL POWISthought the existing powers vested in trustees rendered snob, a clause as this unnecessary.
  LORD TAUNTONmade a few observations which were not audible, but was understood to support the clause.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that after the discussion which had taken place, he thought it would be advisable to withdraw the clause, in order, that an enactment having the same object might be brought forward in another Session in a better and more convenient form.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
  Report of the, Amendment to be received To-morrow; and Bill to be printed as amended (No. 158.)

NAVAL MEDICAL SUPPLEMENTAL FUND SOCIETY WINDING-UP ACT (1861) AMENDMENT BILL—(No. 102.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a: (The Duke of Somerset.)
  LORD CHELMSFORDsaid, it seemed somewhat unfair, there having been a trustee appointed two years ago in the interests of the annuitants of the fund, now to propose, that if the trustee happened to be removed in any way, the annuitants were not to have the power of appointing his successor, but that he

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  Should be appointed by the Admiralty. Such a proposal Was, he thought, contrary to the understanding on the subject in 1861.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETSuggested that before the next stage of the Bill some arrangement might, perhaps, be entered into between the parties concerned which would obviate the objection of the noble and learned Lord.
  Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

VOLUNTEERS BILL—(No. 140.)

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order): (The Earl de Grey.)
  Clauses 1 to 34 agreed to.
  Clause 35 (8 & 9 Vict., cc. 18 & 19 incorporated).
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDSaid, that in moving the rejection of this clause he did so without any feeling of hostility towards the great Volunteer movement. But if the movement was as popular as they were all bound to admit it was, a bad compliment: was paid to it by asking for compulsory powers in order that the various Volunteer corps might obtain practising grounds. For this purpose it was proposed to give Lords Lieutenant an arbitrary and unusual power, which few of their Lordships would be willing to have conferred upon them, and still fewer would be Willing to exercise. The Secretary for War might refer to the Defence Act; but it was not a parallel case, as it only related to the coast defences of the country. So far as he had heard, there was no ground for Coming to Parliament for such compulsory powers. It had not been shown that Volunteer corps were less efficient, or that any practical inconvenience had arisen from the want of them. With regard to the persons' whose property was to be taken, he did not think, that after the Lord Lieutenant had recommended the taking of the ground, and the Secretary for War had certified in its favour, the owner would have much chance of offering a successful opposition to the measure when it came before Parliament for its sanction. The clause provided that the ground should be selected with due regard to the "safety and convenience of the public;" but the owner, to whom the target practice might be very unsafe and inconvenient, was entirely
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  overlooked. If there was any evil to remedy, which he doubted, it was so small that it did not warrant such an interference with the rights of private property, and he should therefore move the omission of the clause.
  EARL DE GREY AND RIPONsaid, he was not surprised that this clause should have attracted attention, but he thought the noble Duke was in error in supposing that the main responsibility would be thrown upon the Lord Lieutenant. The Lord Lieutenant's certificate was merely required with a view to provide additional security that no land should be taken unnecessarily. According to an Amendment which he had introduced, there was to be a certificate—
  "That a safe and convenient ground for shooting and drilling cannot be obtained by the corps, within a reasonable distance of the head-quarters of the corps, unless the land mentioned in that behalf in the certificate is taken compulsorily."
  After the certificate was given a Petition would be presented to the Secretary of State, who would make inquiry in the same way as, in the case of Provisional Orders under the Local Government Act. Having done that, he would make a Provisional Order, which would require the sanction of an Act of Parliament. The object of the clause was to render applications for private Acts unnecessary, and the question was whether the interests of the Volunteer corps required such legislation. No doubt, in country districts the necessity did not exist; but in the neighbourhood of large towns it certainly did. Thus, in the metropolis there were twenty-six corps whose practice range was the Government range at Woolwich, which they, of course, could only use when it was not wanted by the regular troops. The consequence was that these corps were debarred from proper opportunities of practice. Now, Volunteer corps ought to have special facilities for the practice of rifle shooting; for while Volunteers could not attain more than a certain amount of proficiency in drill, they were able, from their intelligence and the interest which most of them took in rifle practice, to acquire great proficiency with that weapon. So important was this proficiency considered that Parliament, on the recommendation of a Royal Commission, had lately decided that one-third of the grant—10 s. out of 30 s.—should be dependent on the Volunteers undergoing a considerable amount of musketry instruct-

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  tion practice, involving the firing of a considerable number of rounds during the year. But in a great many cases in large towns it would be extremely difficult for Volunteers to obtain, this sum, and to satisfy the requirements of the Government, unless they had means which they did not now possess for obtaining practice ranges. Some time ago an Act was passed giving facilities to Volunteer corps to obtain ranges voluntarily, but it had not resulted in their obtaining them. It appeared, therefore, to the late Sir George Lewis, whose opinion would have great weight with their Lordships, that these clauses were justified by the needs of the Volunteers, and were almost a necessary corollary of the Vote of Parliament, which was made to depend on the efficiency of the men as shots. The rejection of these clauses would, he believed, be regarded with much regret by a considerable portion of the Volunteer force, who were situated as he had described, and would interfere with their attainment of efficiency in the use of the rifle. At the same time, if the general opinion of the House was adverse to these clauses, he should not be disposed to insist upon their retention.
  THE EARL OF DERBYhoped the noble Earl would consent to abandon the clauses. The powers asked for were unusual and extensive, and were an interference with the rights of private property of an extraordinary character which did not appear to be justified by any necessity. He would wish to know from the Secretary of State whether he expected that any great inconvenience to the Volunteer force would result from the abandonment of these clauses. If numerous cases could be shown in which it would be impossible for Volunteer corps to obtain practice grounds without the assistance of these clauses, then the House might be disposed to allow them to pass, objectionable as they were, even in their amended form. But if there was no absolute necessity for these clauses, he hoped they would be withdrawn, or at least postponed.
  EARL GRANVILLEthought the clauses would be very useful, and would remind the House that similar powers were possessed by the regular army. But he would suggest to his noble Friend the Secretary for War to calculate the respective forces on either side of the House, and under these circumstances he would suggest the withdrawal of the clauses, his noble Friend reserving to himself the right,
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  if it should be found necessary, to reintroduce them at some future time.
  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, he always had entertained a high opinion of the noble Earl's discretion, but he confessed he had never seen that discretion more remarkably exhibited than on the present occasion.
  EARL DE GREY AND RIPONsaid, he would not press the clauses, but would propose Amendments on bringing up the Report to preserve to the Volunteers the permissive powers of the existing Act.
  Clause struck out.
  Clause 36 (Mode in which Certificate of Lieutenant and Act of Parliament obtained) struck out.
  Remaining Clauses agreed to.
  Amendments made: The Report thereof to be received on Monday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 159.)

  OFFENCES (SOUTH AFRICA) BILL [H.L.]
  Commons' Amendments considered (according to Order), and agreed to.

  DRAINAGE AND IMPROVEMENT OF LANDS (IRELAND) BILL.
  Read 2a (according to Order); and referred to a Select Committee: The Lords following were named of the Committee; the Committee to meet on Monday next, at Two o'clock, and to appoint their own Chairman:—Ld. Steward, E. Lucan, E. Belmore, E. Bandon, E. Harrowby, E. Stradbroke, V. Hawarden, V. Hutchinson, L. Ponsonby, L. Wodehouse, L. Somerhill, L. Dartrey, L. Lyverden.
  House adjourned at half-past Eight o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter before Five o'clock.