Lords Sitting of 17 July 1863

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Fortifications (Provision for Expenses) * (No. 225); Nuisances Removal Act (1855) Amendment * (No. 226).
Second Reading—Vaccination (Scotland) * (No. 193); India Stock * (No. 223); Sydney Branch Mint * (No. 217).
Committee—Prisons (Ireland) * (No. 195); Pier and Harbour Orders Confirmation * (No. 220): Alterations in Judges Circuits [H.L.] *(No. 212); Greenwich Hospital (Provision for Widows) * (No. 207); Metropolitan Main Drainage Extension * (No. 208); Misappropriation by Servants * (No. 204); Clergymen (Colonies) [H.L.] * (No. 205).
Report—Harwich Harbour * (No. 174); Howth Harbour * (No. 180); Prisons (Ireland); * Alterations in Judges Circuits [H.L.] *; Greenwich Hospital (Provision for Widows) *; Metropolitan Main Drainage Extension *; Misappropriation by Servants * (No. 227); Savings Banks Acts Amendment * (No. 221); Stipendiary Magistrates * (No. 222); Clergymen (Colonies) [H.L.] * (No. 228); Port Erin Harbour (Isle of Man) * (No. 169).
Third Reading—Removal of Irish Poor * (No. 218); Growing Crops Seizure (Ireland) * (No. 209); Land Drainage (Provisional Orders) * (No. 160); Marriages Registration (Ireland) * (No. 219); Colonial Acts Confirmation [H.L.] *(No. 213); and severally passed.

PROVISIONAL ORDERS, INCLOSURE AND LAND DRAINAGE ACTS.

  STANDING ORDER MOVED.
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORErose to move the adoption of a new Standing Order in relation to Provisional Orders under the Inclosure Acts, or under the Land Drainage (1861) Act. The noble Earl said, that it was not by any means his wish to preclude those who had any objections to urge against any Provisional Order from being heard before the Committee; but under the existing system there was no security that great injustice might not be done to the promoters of these orders by their modification behind their backs, and the insertion of conditions which would deprive them of all their value. In the case of an inclosure of land near London a few years ago, a Select Committee of the House of Commons inserted a provision that fifty acres of land should be set apart as a recreation ground.
  Moved,
  "That when a Petition is presented to this House, praying to be heard by Counsel against any Provisional Order under the Inclosure Acts, or under the Land Drainage Act, 1861, contained or referred to in any Bill before this House, such Bill may be referred to a Select Committee, and the Committee may hear the Petitioners, the Inclosure Commissioners if they shall think fit to appear, and such Persons as shall appear in support of said Provisional Order; and the Committee may, if they think fit, recommend that such Provisional Order be not confirmed, but the Committee shall not in any way modify or alter the terms of such Order."
  LORD REDESDALEmust oppose the proposition of the noble Earl, as at variance with the principles upon which private Bill legislation was conducted, and likely to be injurious both to the promoters and opponents of this class of Bills. It would operate unfairly to promoters, because Committees might be induced to reject their Bills simply because they had not

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  power to insert Amendments which they thought necessary; and it might affect opponents equally injuriously, by leading Committees to reject necessary Amendments rather than throw out the Bills. Alterations were not made in these Bills behind the backs of the promoters, as the noble Earl seemed to imagine. In the very case to which he had referred, the promoters strongly opposed, before the Committee of the House of Commons, the modifications which were proposed.
  THE MARQUESS OF BATHsaid, there was a distinction between the Orders under the Inclosure and those under the Drainage Acts.
  LORD WODEHOUSEsaid, he certainly thought some such provision as that suggested by his noble Friend ought to be adopted, for many of these schemes were introduced into Parliament by common consent, and any ex parte alterations which were subsequently made were, in fact, a violation of that consent, and hence a great injustice to the original parties to the scheme.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, that great inconvenience might be the result of the Resolution, no matter how desirable its operation might be in some respects.
  LORD REDESDALEobserved, that any scheme upon which a Bill was founded must always be understood by the parties to be subject to such provisions and changes as Parliament might think fit to adopt respecting it.
  THE EARL OF HARROWBYsaid, that something in the nature of a "Wharncliffe Meeting" might be introduced to prevent the evil that had been suggested.
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREsaid, that after that expression of opinion from their Lordships, he would withdraw his Motion; but he still hoped that something would be done to avoid the danger of orders being made behind the backs of the parties affected by them.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

JUDICIAL STATISTICS (IRELAND).
THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE, in pursuance of notice, rose to move Resolutions to the effect that it is expedient and necessary that Judicial Statistics from Ireland, similar to those for England and Wales, should be annually furnished. The noble Marquess said that it was unneces-
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sary to use a single argument to prove the utility of these statistics; and when his noble and learned Friend Lord Brougham moved his Resolution in 1856, by which he had added another to his many claims on the gratitude of the country for services rendered, there was no idea of restricting the statistics to England and Wales. The noble Earl the President of the Council announced in 1861 that thereafter the information would be presented from Ireland as well as from England and Wales; and when his noble and learned Friend (Lord Brougham) was presiding over the Juridical Department of the Social Science Congress in Dublin, he congratulated the people of Ireland upon that announcement. He made no complaint against the noble Earl or his Colleagues; but he did complain of the legal advisers of the Irish Government and other high functionaries in Ireland for having abstained from taking any efficient steps to collect these statistics, and he thought that their disregard of the character and credit of the Lord President, and their disregard of the wishes of their Lordships, ought not to be tolerated. There was pressing necessity for having the information, and he felt some confidence that their Lordships would adopt these Resolutions, by which the benefit of the system of judicial statistics would no longer be withheld from Ireland. The noble Marquess concluded by moving to resolve—
"That in the Session of 1856 this House resolved that 'a Department for the Collection of Judicial Statistics should be formed in connection with the Home Office,' and 'should make an Annual Report to Parliament at a stated Time, presenting Returns in a collective Form illustrative of the State and Progress of the Administration of the Law throughout the United Kingdom:'
"That, accordingly, such a Report and Return have been annually presented to Parliament since the Year 1858 for England and Wales, and contains Information of the greatest Value:
"That notwithstanding the Resolution of 1856, and a Pledge given by Ministers in Debate upon the Subject in July 1861, no similar Report has been made from Ireland:
"That it is expedient and necessary that Judicial Statistics from Ireland, similar to those for England and Wales, and to be presented at the same Time, should be annually furnished; and with that view it is necessary that a Person acquainted with the Irish Courts and otherwise competent should be attached to the Home Office, and that all possible Facilities and Co-operation should be afforded to this Officer by the several Authorities in Dublin Castle and the various Law Courts of Ireland."
EARL GRANVILLEhoped that their

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Lordships would not assume either that there were no statistics in Ireland, or that there had been any premeditated opposition by the legal authorities there to the furnishing of them. The delay—which he regretted—had occurred mainly from a desire to make the statistics as complete as possible and reduced into a form in which they should be most available for public use. He understood it was the opinion of the gentleman who had charge of the collection of those statistics that certain improvements could be made on the English plan, and that the delay was, at least to some extent, attributable to a desire that those improvements should be carried out. But as he was not able to give his noble Friend as satisfactory a reply as he could have wished, he should not oppose the Motion if his noble Friend would consent to omit from his third Resolution the words, "and to be presented at the same time," and the words which declared that a person acquainted with the Irish courts should be attached to the Home Office.
LORD BROUGHAMexpressed his concurrence in what had been said by his noble Friend who had introduced the subject. He believed, that if proper judicial statistics had been furnished from Ireland, every shadow of opposition to the Incumbered Estates Court would have been removed in less than a year after the establishment of that tribunal. As he was speaking on the subject of statistics, he could not but mention the name of an illustrious man whose services in the advancement of statistical knowledge had been most important, but had not received the public acknowledgment to which they were entitled—he meant his late Royal Highness the Prince Consort, one of whose great measures was the International Statistical Congress. It was held three or four years ago, and brought together from various parts of the Continent, as was his Royal Highness's wish and design, men who contributed most valuable information. That congress had a most admirable effect, not only in showing the advantages of a good system of statistics, the superiority of the judicial statistics of some countries—France, for instance—as compared with others, and the means by which judicial statistics could be improved—it not only produced that important effect, but it led to a conciliatory intercourse between persons of knowledge and experience from various nations; and this, like other measures of His Royal Highness, had the
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effect of creating goodwill among different countries, and the members of different communities, and bringing about what we prayed for daily—"the unity, peace, and concord" of all nations. He could not mention the name of His Royal Highness without bearing his testimony to the great services which the Prince Consort had rendered this country and Europe, and humanity at large, by his wise and useful designs for the general advancement. His Royal Highness must be admitted to have been a remarkable man. He had lived before his age; he had lived in advance of his age; and all his measures—all the measures of various kinds which either he originated himself or supported when they were originated by others—had been not only beneficial to this country, but to the general peace and good understanding of mankind. He might say that he had never known a man of sounder judgment. He had known another man of sound judgment—of a judgment that hardly ever failed—he meant his late illustrious Friend the great Duke of Wellington, who, with an unprecedented acuteness and singular perspicacity, had a judgment which was never at fault, so that his advice might always be followed with safety and advantage. His was a judgment which no misinformation, no false or erroneous intelligence ever misled, which no prejudice ever biassed, which no passion or feeling ever warped. Those two men—the Prince and the Duke—of them it might be truly said that the Prince was an example—a bright example—to all Sovereigns, and the Duke a bright example to all statesmen.
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREsaid, it was desirable that these Returns should be produced without delay—if not this Session, at least early next Session. There were complaints that the Irish Judges had arranged their circuits so as not to give sufficient time for the consideration of the cases that came before them. If those Judges were reduced in number, and required to work as hard as their brethren did in England, the public would be better satisfied with the way in which justice was administered.
Motion amended, and agreed to.
Resolved,
That in the Session of 1856 this House resolved that "a Department for the Collection of Judicial Statistics should be formed in connection with the Home Office," and "should make an Annual Report to Parliament at a stated Time, presenting Returns in a collective Form illustra-

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tive of the State and Progress of the Administration of the Law throughout the United Kingdom:"
That, accordingly, such a Report and Return have been annually presented to Parliament since the year 1858 for England and Wales, and contains Information of the greatest value:
That notwithstanding the Resolution of 1856, and a Pledge given by Ministers in Debate upon the Subject in July 1861, no similar Report has been made from Ireland:
That it is expedient and necessary that Judicial Statistics from Ireland, similar to those for England and Wales, should be annually furnished.

THE ROYAL IRISH ACADEMY.

  QUESTION.
  LORD TALBOT DE MALAHIDEsaid, that last year a Commission was issued to inquire into the working of the Royal Dublin Society and other institutions. In several of the suggestions made by that Commission he fully concurred; but one of them—that the Royal Irish Academy should be placed under the control of the Royal Dublin Society—had given rise to a great deal of complaint among those connected with the former establishment. The Royal Irish Academy had existed for a great number of years, its object being partly of a scientific and partly of a literary character, and it had highly distinguished itself in both characters. The Royal Dublin Society was formed for the purpose of advancing the industrial interests of Ireland, and it had done much to improve its agriculture. Hitherto no antagonism had arisen between the two Societies, their objects being distinct; and as there existed among scientific and literary men a considerable amount—not of quarrelsomeness, but of biliousness—no step should be taken which would be likely to irritate them. He asked, therefore, the noble Earl the President of the Council, Whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to carry out the Recommendation of the Commissioners on the System of Scientific Instruction in Ireland, to affiliate the Royal Irish Academy to the Royal Dublin Society, and to place it under the control of that body?
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that in a very able Report which had been made by these Commissioners last year the suggestion alluded to had been made. At the same time, the Government, having heard from the Lord Lieutenant reasons why it was not desirable to adopt that suggestion, had determined not to carry out this portion of the Report.

THE NEW DOCK AT MALTA.

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF SHREWSBURYsaid, he rose to ask a Question of the noble Duke the First Lord of the Admiralty respecting the proposed dock at Malta; but, in order to make himself intelligible, he would state as nearly as he could the present condition of the works at that dock. He understood that an agreement had been made between the Imperial Government and the Government of Malta for the construction of a dock, and the understanding was that each was to pay a moiety of £125,000 or £126,000, which was the estimated cost. It was further agreed, that if in carrying out these works this estimate should be exceeded by 30 per cent, the Government of Malta should only defray one-third of the excess; and if the estimate were still further exceeded, the whole additional expenditure was to fall upon the Imperial Government. He understood that, according to the present plan, the dock would be in a most inconvenient position. It would be at a distance of two miles from the dockyard, and the opinion of naval officers was almost unanimous against the erection of the dock in such a spot, and at an expense which it was believed would largely exceed the estimate. The only naval opinion in favour of the new dock was that given by Sir Frederick Grey, who, he understood, had only seen it for a few hours; while unfavourable opinions had been given by Sir William Parker, Admiral Codrington, and the Admiral Superintendent of Malta. He regretted that the papers on this subject, which were ordered six weeks ago, had not yet been laid on the table. He wished to ask the noble Duke, Whether, in his opinion, the site of the new dock was superior to that of the French Creek, and whether, in face of the opinions against it, the Government intended to carry out the agreement with the Council of Malta?
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, that a good deal of alarm appeared to be felt in the Council at Malta, and in the mercantile community there, lest, under pressure of certain Members of the House of Commons, the Government having entered into an engagement, should be about to violate it. The Government, however, would adhere strictly to their engagement. About the year 1857 great desire was felt by the Admiralty to increase the harbour accommodation at Malta; and in 1858 an en-

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  deavour was made to obtain from the local Government of Malta further accommodation in the harbour. The mercantile community refused to part with the French Creek; but Sir Gaspard le Marchant made further efforts to obtain it, and in 1859 the Council agreed to give up the French Creek to the English Government on certain conditions, which were mutually agreed to. The harbour was to be extended, and the upper portion deepened, and about 120 acres were to be given up to the mercantile shipping. When the necessary works were completed, the Admiralty were to be allowed to take possession of the French Creek. The agreement with the Maltese Government was made in May 1859. When he came into office in July 1859, the subject was mentioned to him by Sir John Pakington. He thereupon examined all the papers, and had the benefit of the advice of Sir Richard Dundas. The great advantage of getting possession of the French Creek was very apparent, and he communicated with Sir Gaspard le Marchant on the subject in the hope of obtaining possession of it at an earlier period. The feeling of the people of Malta was, however, very strong, and Her Majesty's Government adopted the Resolution as passed by the Council of Malta, with some modifications, whereby the Council agreed to pay a larger portion of the expenditure. The subject was brought before the House of Commons in the Session following. A plan was laid before the House, and a small Vote taken, so as to enable the House to pass an opinion on the scheme. The Vote was agreed to. That having been done, he considered himself bound to carry out the engagement with the Government of Malta. Part of the arrangement was to surround the works with a stone wall. It was necessary to excavate the stone, and it had been suggested that in doing so a small basin might be formed, which was likely to be of great use for gunboats and small vessels. The suggestion seemed to him to be a good one, and the basin when formed would be surrounded by wharfs, which would be of great advantage to the shipping generally. He could assure the noble Earl that he intended faithfully to carry out the engagement made with the Governor of Malta. No doubt the new dock was not so useful as the French Creek, and the Government would make a dock there also when they got possession of the French Creek. He should be sorry to commit
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  himself to the exact amount of the expenditure to be incurred, as in works carried on under water so much depended on the nature of the soil.
  House adjourned at a quarter past Seven o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Five o'clock.