Lords Sitting of 5 June 1862

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.— 1a Jurisdiction in Homicides; Sandhurst Vesting.
2a Universities (Scotland) Act Amendment; Red Sea and India Telegraph Company.

COPYRIGHT (WORKS OF ART) BILL. [BILL No. 49.]

  ORDER FOR COMMITTEE DISCHARGED. BILL COMMITTED TO A SELECT COMMITTEE.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that in accordance with what appeared to be the general feeling of their Lordships, he proposed to move that this Bill be referred to a Select Committee. He thought that would be the best mode of dealing with the complicated details of the question.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, he would not oppose the reference to a Select Committee, but thought that the required amendments could have been made in the Bill in a Committee of the Whole House. He would suggest, however, that the Committee should consider whether, in giving new protection to painters and engravers, it would not be well to give similar protection to sculptors.
  LORD CHELMSFORDsaid, he approved the reference to a Select Committee, because he thought that before the Bill became law it would require to undergo very material alteration. At the same time he would venture to suggest the necessity for an inquiry into the law of artistic copyright generally, which appeared to him to be in an unsettled and unsatisfactory condition. This Bill only proposed to deal with drawings and paintings, leaving the question as concerned sculpture unchanged. He thought the existing law with regard to engravings and sculpture required amendment. The law of copyright affecting engravings depended upon an old Act of 1735, called "Hogarth's Act," which gave engravers a copyright in their works for fourteen years, afterwards extended to twenty-eight years. In order to obtain that privilege, however, it was requisite that each engraving should bear the name of the engraver and the date of the first publication, which requirement was, of course, not fulfilled in the case of artists' proofs and proofs before letters. As the term of copyright in engravings was not the same as that of literary copyright, in the case of engravings illustrating a work a question arose whether the engravings were governed by the Literary Copyright Act. Under the Literary Copyright Act, no preliminary conditions were prescribed, and copyright was given to the author during his life, and for seven years afterwards; or for a total period of forty-two years, if his life should not extend to
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  that period. But engravings published in illustrated works did not fall within the terms of the Literary Copyright Act, and therefore they were governed by the Engravings Act, which only gave a copyright of twenty-eight years, under certain conditions. In this Bill it was proposed to give to engravers a copyright during the author's life, and for seven years afterwards; but not to give the alternative period of forty-two years. Under the Designs Act, sculptors could register their works, and recover penalties in case of piracy; but the law in respect to sculpture differed from the law relating to painting and engravings. The result was an uncertain and incomplete state of things. He could not but think that it was desirable to establish the same law in reference to all artistic and literary productions. He thought, also, that the question of international copyright should be considered, together with the whole subject of domestic copyright, before they proceeded to fresh legislation; and he would suggest that a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the law of copyright in general, and that this Bill should be referred to that Committee.
  LORD TAUNTONsaid, he believed his noble Friend the President of the Council had exercised a very wise discretion in referring the Bill to a Select Committee. He believed that the Bill pushed the principle of protection to a most extravagant point. He should despair of making the measure a reasonable one in a Committee of the Whole House, but he hoped that in a Select Committee they would be able to give to it that character.
  EARL STANHOPEtrusted that the inquiry before the Select Committee would be proceeded with immediately after the Whitsuntide recess; for he should consider it a great misfortune if the Bill, which had already received the assent of the other House, should, in consequence of any unnecessary delay, be dropped for the present Session.
  EARL GEANVILLEwas afraid, that if the Select Committee were to enter into the consideration of all the subjects adverted to by the noble and learned Lord (Lord Chelmsford), a great delay must take place.
  LORD CHELMSFORDsaid, that what he desired was, that the different laws with respect to artistic works should be assimilated.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he would endeavour to name the Committee before the House adjourned.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into a Committee on this Bill discharged; and Bill referred to a Select Committee:
  The Lords following were named of the Committee; the Committee to meet on Monday the 16th instant, at Four o'Clock, and to appoint their own Chairman:

  Ld. Chancellor.

  E. Ellesmere.

  Ld. President.

  Ld. Chamberlain.

  Ld. Privy Seal.

  V. Hardinge.

  M. Westminster.

  V. Stratford de Redcliffe.

  Ld. Steward.

  E. Derby.

  L. Overstone.

  E. Stanhope.

  L. Cranworth.

  E. Carnarvon.

  L. Wensleydale.

  E. Grey.

  L. Chelmsford.

  E. Sommers.

  L. Taunton.

  E. Ellenborough.

RED SEA AND INDIA TELEGRAPH COMPANY BILL.

  [BILL NO. 70.] SECOND READING.
  Order for the Second Reading read.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLL, in moving the second reading of the Bill, said that its object was to make the best of a bad bargain. In 1858, the late Government entered into an agreement with a Company which had engaged to establish an electric telegraph communication between England and India. By that agreement the Company were guaranteed an annual payment of 4½ per cent on any sum up to £800,000 which they might expend on the work, provided they succeeded in establishing such a communication. The Company laid down the communication, and for a short time each separate part was in successful operation, and messages were for some days transmitted from England to Kurrachee. The Company had therefore fulfilled the condition. But very soon after the line had been brought into working order, some of the most important of its links became defective, and had never since been restored. The Government nevertheless were still bound to pay the stipulated 4½ per cent per annum. Under these circumstances the whole matter was then thrown upon the Government, who declined to attempt to restore the telegraphic communication themselves, but entered into an agreement with a new Company, by which that Company were to be remunerated from the profits of the undertaking, so that their profits would
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  depend on the successful operation of the telegraphic communication.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHobserved, that electric telegraph communication with India was not merely of commercial importance, but of the highest political importance also. If the matter were left to the management of a Company, he had no great hopes of the success of the scheme. The line must pass through the territories of foreign rulers. A Company would hardly be able to carry out the object without the intervention of the Government. He therefore thought it would have been better if the Government had kept the whole matter in their own hands.
  LORD LYVEDENsaid, he did not agree with the noble Duke in thinking that all that now remained to be done was to make the best of a bad bargain. He wished to know whether the Government had gone into the question, whether or not the electric telegraph to be established under the Bill would form the best line of communication with India? Suppose this Company should fail, were Government to take no other steps to complete telegraphic communication with India? Had they considered whether this scheme was feasible? The correspondence which had taken place between the two Companies was very meagre, and there had been no declaration, by the Government as to what the contract was.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLthought his noble Friend misunderstood the whole transaction. The arrangement as to the payment of the late Company was not altered. They were absolutely entitled, under a Report made to the House of Commons, and a vote of that House, to every farthing of money that was given to them by this Bill. There was a provision in the Bill, however, for converting that payment into annuities, and for their redemption by Government. The new Company, at their own risk and with a large expenditure of capital, offered to fish up the Red Sea cable and complete the line of communication with India, without any advance or guarantee from the Government, and only stipulating for the profits of the line if they succeeded. He thought such an arrangement, so far as the Government were concerned, was making the best of a bad bargain; and he was not sure that, after all, this was not the most certain mode of establishing telegraphic communication

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  with India, which the Government were most anxious to see carried out.
  LORD REDESDALEobserved, that while the Bill stated there were certain arrangements which had been entered into with Her Majesty's Treasury, these were not set out either in the preamble or schedules. He thought it extremely important that these arrangements should be specified in the Bill. He had hoped that the mode in which the Bill was drawn had been exploded long ago.
  EARL GREYwished to know whether the arrangement the Government had made would be any obstacle to their establishing another line, either by the Red Sea or through Persia, if that should be considered advisable, or whether a complete monopoly was given to one Company? He thought it most important that the hands of the Government and Parliament should not be bound by such an arrangement.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLapproved the general principle stated by the noble Chairman of Committees. Parliament should undoubtedly keep a sharp lookout in all these cases; and had that taken place in 1858, very possibly the original agreement would not have been sanctioned. The whole of the present arrangement had been laid before Parliament in the shape of a Treasury Minute, and the letter of the new Company accepting the terms. This was before the end of March, so that the House of Commons had had time maturely to consider the subject; and, in point of fact, no objection had been made to it. There was no guarantee given that other lines should not be established; the only agreement was that the new Company should restore and complete the communication, and that they should have all the profits of the line up to the limit of 25 per cent, beyond which there were various arrangements as to the right of pre-emption. All this was specified in the Treasury Minute, but he should not object to insert the Treasury Minute in a schedule, if the rules of Parliamentary procedure would permit of that course.
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, he did not think there was much reason to apprehend any competition in the establishment of such a line of communication. His opinion was that the £200,000 proposed to be expended in restoring this communication would be thrown away; and, oreover, he was convinced that in the
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  event of a war the communication would be destroyed.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Friday, the 13th instant.

EDUCATION — CHRISHALL NATIONAL SCHOOL. —PETITION.—MOTION FOR CORRESPONDENCE.
THE BISHOP OF ROCHESTER moved for—
"Copies of Correspondence between the Committee of Privy Council on Education and the Committee of a proposed National School at Chrishall, relative to an Application made for a Building Grant for the said School, and refused by the Committee of Council."
The right rev. Prelate said, that the case which he had to bring before their Lordships was a very small one in itself, but it involved principles which, if allowed to remain in operation, would affect the whole of the Church of England Schools. It was the case of the parish of Chrishall, in Essex, in which place, after a considerable period of neglect, something like a little revival had taken place, and an effort was made to establish a school. An application was made to the Education Committee for a grant in aid of the building; but it was refused on the ground that the proposed school was to be in union with the National Society, and that no grant could be allowed unless "the conscience clauses" were introduced. The reply of the Committee on Education created considerable feeling in the parish. It was known that the objection of the Committee was grounded on the circumstance that between fifty and sixty families professedly belonged to the Church of England, and that about an equal number belonged to Dissent, The result was that the Dissenters immediately joined with the Church people in petitioning the Committee of Council that the difficulty might be waived, and that a grant might be made in aid of the building of the National School. It was hoped that a unanimous petition to that effect, in which the name of not a single inhabitant was wanting, might succeed in removing the difficulty which had been raised by the Education Committee; but the reply was to the effect, that although, no doubt, it was satisfactory that all the inhabitants should be willing to concur in establishing a National School, yet the building grants of the Committee were presumed

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to be in perpetuum, and it was an invariable rule that the assent or wishes of existing parishioners should not be acted upon so as to bind those who came after them. It was added that the parish of Chrishall was avowedly too small to support more than one school; and that as nearly half of the inhabitants were Dissenters, the next generation might be unwilling to let their children attend a school in connection with the National Society; and the fact that an objection might possibly be raised hereafter to the school on the part of some of the parishioners was deemed by the Education Committee a sufficient reason for refusing a grant in aid of the building. If the possible existence of Dissent in another generation was to be considered an obstacle to the making of a grant in aid of a National School, the application of that principle would effectually debar the extension of Church of England Schools by the aid of public money, as had heretofore been the case. The reply of the Education Committee contained an intimation that there was something of a proselytizing system in the Church of England Schools; but such a system the National Society repudiated, except so far as it was bound to carry out its principles as an embodiment of the National Church promoting the cause of education. The National Society, by the profession of its members and by its charter, entertained, and had always insisted on promoting, the principles of the Church of England; but, at the same time, it had in its terms of union certain discretionary powers vested in managers which were designed to obviate objections, probably of a temporary kind, that might be made here and there. It was not correct to say that there was anything of a proselytizing character in the National Society, beyond that which must necessarily belong to it as the representative of the Church of England. Such a statement might equally well be made with respect to the British and Foreign Society, because the British and Foreign Schools were as much the schools of the Dissenters as the National Schools were the schools of the Church of England. The principle upon which the public grants were originally made was that of encouraging religious bodies who had already been exerting themselves in order to promote the education of the country, and it was agreed that the question of religion should be put on one side. The country was to avail itself of the efforts
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which were made so strenuously by religious bodies; but in the present instance what he and many others felt, and what had been represented to him continually since the question of the conscience clause had been so frequently agitated, was that the money power vested in the Committee of Council was made to control and influence the religious character of schools. That was totally alien to the principles upon which the movement began. If carried out extensively, it must bring confusion into all the efforts that might be made to promote the Church of England schools, and that, too, without a particle of evidence that the discretionary power which managers were entitled and called upon to exercise had been in any way abused. In the absence of such evidence, it was rather hard that those who were exerting themselves to promote Church of England schools should be prevented from exercising the discretionary power vested in them; while, at the same time, they were told that the Committee of Council would themselves exercise a discretionary power as to the schools which they might deem entitled to receive aid where Dissent in any form existed. He held, for his own part, that a discretionary power might be abused in the way of making grants, just as much as in requiring the application of religious tests. It was a fact, however, that the National Society had resisted attempts by managers to introduce religious tests. The Education Committee, in their reply to the promoters of the Chrishall school, professed to be guided by old rules. Now, the only rule bearing on the subject was to be found in page 6 of the last Code, and was to the effect that the religious denomination of each school should be suitable to the families relied upon for the supply of scholars. He presumed that the people themselves were to judge of what was suited to their case. The inhabitants of Chrishall were unanimous in favour of the proposed National school; but, leaving that point, he was at a loss to know when and where this rule had its origin? It was certainly to be found in the last Code, but it had no existence before. When the difficulty about the management clauses was arranged, it was thought that the National Society would be permitted to go on in its good work without molestation; and it was certainly startling to be told that the money power wielded by the Education Committee was to be used to control the

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character and religious teaching of the National schools.
THE BISHOP OF LINCOLN presented, a petition from the Rev. John Douglas Giles, Rector of Willoughby, in the county of Lincoln, complaining that a grant had been refused to a school in his parish by the Committee of Council because of its connection with the National Society, and praying for redress. The right rev. Prelate said, that this case was very similar to that just brought under their Lordships' notice by his right rev. Brother. It had been proposed to establish at Willoughby an infant school in connection with the National Society, and application was made for a grant in aid of the building: the appeal was met by a refusal, it being stated, that after a careful consideration of the application, the Committee of the Privy Council regretted that they must decline to aid the promoters to establish a school, the pupils of which might, in the discretion of the managers, be compelled to learn the Church of England Catechism, and to attend the parish church. It was not possible, however, that they would be compelled to attend the parish church, for it was two miles distant; and the rule with reference to the Catechism did not apply to infant schools. He deeply regretted that the Education Committee should have given such a reply. The progress which had of recent years been made in the education of the people in this country—a progress at which the great and good Prince, whose loss we all deplored, had, in almost his last words, expressed his astonishment—was mainly owing to the efforts of private benevolence, the mainspring of which was the religious zeal of those by whom it was exhibited. It was clear, therefore, he added, that a refusal based on such grounds as those alleged by the Committee of Council in the instance to which he adverted, must tend to check the aid which many good men were impelled to give for the reason he had mentioned. He might further observe that he viewed with some alarm the interruption which had lately been created in a system under which the education of the country had so greatly advanced. He was sorry the system had been broken in upon without the introduction of some more hopeful mode of securing the continuance of that advancement.
THE BISHOP OF ST. ASAPHsaid, he also could mention an instance in which
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there had been, in his opinion, an injustice done towards a National School. In his diocese there had existed for about fifteen years a bad National school. In consequence of a change of master, and unwearied exertions on the part of the landowners and others, the school was put upon a better footing; and then it was thought that it would be better to pull down the schoolhouse and to rebuild it upon a new site. In that case all the landed proprietors and all who could be expected to contribute towards the expense were Churchmen, and the people of the district had no objection against sending their children to the National school. Application was made for a Government grant; but it was refused, upon the ground that there were numerous Dissenters in the parish who had petitioned against the grant. He contended, however, that the school was not a new school, within the meaning of the rule that had been referred to, but was an old school that had existed for at least fifteen years before. In another case in his diocese the largest landed proprietor of the parish was a Roman Catholic, but out of the population of 2,500 not 100 were also of that religion. Application was made by the proprietor for a Government grant to build a Roman Catholic school—a denominational school of the most exclusive character—and a grant of £650 was made. No complaint was made of that grant; but it was complained that the same favour was not extended to Church of England schools. If an impression were permitted to gain ground that the Church was held in disfavour by the Government, an evil would be created, the effects of which would be felt for many years to come.
EARL GRANVILLE (who was very imperfectly heard)said, he could not admit that the Department over which he presided was justly liable to the charge of hostility towards the Church of England schools, and of withholding from those schools a fair share of the Government grants, to the discouragement of those who were interested in them. The right rev. Prelates appeared to think that some new rule, or new application of a rule, had been introduced. That was entirely a mistake. The rule of which the right rev. Prelates complained had existed under successive Committees of the Privy Council and successive Governments, and had been invariably acted upon. It would be a waste of the public money for the Go-

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vernment to assist in the establishment of very small schools, which could only be available to a very limited number of children; and therefore they had laid down a rule, regulating that there should be no grant where there were not a certain number of children who could take advantage of it. Where there was a population adequate to support one school, that school was cheerfully aided. In any place where there was a population more than sufficient for one school, that population being composed of two or more religious denominations, and any one denomination could show that it had a sufficient number of pupils to justify the establishment of a separate school, such separate school was assisted. In one case referred to by a right rev. Prelate, the whole population of the parish was only 1,080, giving 120 as the average number of children likely to attend school. Two applications for grants were made, one for the National school to contain 150 pupils, and the other for the British and Foreign Society's school to contain 252. It was evident that the proper course to pursue was to refuse both applications, as one good school would be adequate to the wants of the parish. The right rev. Prelate, however, complained that the Committee did not act upon the same principle in regard to other denominations, and instanced a case where a grant had been made in aid of a Roman Catholic school. If the case were as the right rev. Prelate had stated it, the Department over which he (Earl Granville) presided would not have a word to say; but in the case of Roman Catholics, the grant was made because they could not attend the Church schools in consequence of the rule that the Scriptures were to be taught in them without note or comment; and the result of a refusal, where there was any considerable number of Roman Catholics, to assist a Roman Catholic school, would be that the children of that persuasion would attend no school at all.
THE BISHOP OF ST. DAVID'Ssaid, that this was as important a question as could be brought under their Lordships' attention. He could not understand on what principle grants to denominational schools were not to be regulated by the existing state of religious belief in the district; because, if allowance were to be made for changes in the future, where were these to end? Were they not to educate children in the religious belief to which they belonged, because their de-
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scendants, in some future generation, might exchange it for another? He wished to say a few words as to how the Parliamentary grant had been distributed. So far as the object of the Government was to prevent the application of any exclusive system of education, he entirely concurred in sentiment with the noble Earl; but his own inference from what passed was, that there was a struggle going on between the Committee of Council and the National Society; the former thinking it their duty to take measures to force the National Society to modify their rules by introducing a "conscience clause." This appeared to be at the bottom of the affair. He believed there was no need for the introduction of any such clause; but if the National Society should ever think fit, upon due consideration, to modify their rules, he personally should rejoice in the change. He regretted, however, that the Government appeared disposed to lay down a rule, which would have the effect, directly or indirectly, of subverting the principle of denominational education as at present understood.
LORD REDESDALEsaid, that even admitting that there was no new rule, still it was impossible for any one conversant with the subject not to see that there had been a considerable change in the practice of late years. He was not prepared to fix the precise period at which this change had taken place, but the grants to Church schools in connection with the National Society were no longer made in the same manner. I t was utterly discouraging to those interested in the Church education of the people, to find that within the last few years the distribution of those grants should have been made on the principle introduced by the Committee of Privy Council. As a Vice President of the National Society, he knew that there had been a change in the practice in regard to the distribution of those funds.
LORD OVERSTONEsaid, he deprecated anything like religious differences when they were engaged in promoting the great and sacred object of national education. He believed that the contest was about symbols rather than about the real substance of the subject. All were anxious to educate the people, all were anxious that that education should be not tinged merely, but pervaded through all its parts, by religious principles; and he believed that the best system was one which equally assisted all sects to effect this object, leav-

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ing it to each sect to teach the form of religion which, it approved. He could speak on this subject from some personal experience. When he came into possession of a parish of some extent and importance, he found the schoolhouse in a dilapidated condition, and a jealous feeling amongst his tenants, many of whom were Dissenters of great respectability. To this contest he would not listen. He rebuilt the school at his own expense, supplied the funds for carrying it on (except the usual school pence), and then placed it in the hands of the clergyman of the parish—a man whom he knew to be of a conciliatory character and sincere in his desire for the promotion of education— enjoining him that it was for the benefit of all his tenants and of all the persons upon his estate, of whatever religious denomination; and that, while conducting it upon Church of England principles, he should never forget the kindly and the powerful influence of conciliation. No offensive placards were to be placed upon the school walls; he positively prohibited the hanging-up of boards which intimated in any form of superiority or triumph that Church of England doctrines were taught there; and the result, he believed, was that the schools were thriving and useful. Not a word did he hear about religious differences, and this end was attained simply by avoiding all offensive forms and symbols. If the same principles were generally adopted, he believed equally good results would follow, and the great cause of education would be promoted in the midst of religious harmony instead of religious bitterness.
THE BISHOP OF LLANDAFFsaid, the practice which had been referred to by the noble Lord was the system which had been adopted and followed by the National School Society throughout the land. It was the system throughout his diocese, at any rate. But if the practice complained of by his right rev. Friend (the Bishop of Rochester) became general, they would have no schools at all in our small rural parishes, and the complaint that those parishes were neglected would go unredressed. But, after all, the truth remained, that the only persons who assisted in building schools, and in maintaining them when built, were the Church people.
Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at a Quarter past Seven o'clock, to Friday, the 13th instant, Eleven o'clock.