THE MARQUESS OF NORMANBYrose to call attention to the treatment of political prisoners at present in confinement in Naples, and to move for any information in the possession of Her Majesty's Government on the subject. It was not his 1480 intention, upon the present occasion, to direct their Lordships' attention to the political aspect of the Italian question; but he could not refrain from pointing out that events were occurring in Italy which seemed to confirm the opinion which he had always expressed, that the result of the present confusion could never be that Italy should remain both independent and united, and he was very much afraid that it could not even remain independent. From what had within the last few days appeared in papers of every shade of opinion, he was induced to think that it was not unlikely that the Government at Turin were at this moment maturing alliances, and taking a course which, in order to maintain the grumbling unity of the country, would sacrifice its independence, and, perhaps, compromise the peace of Europe. It was not, however, his intention that evening to discuss either territorial arrangements or forms of government, but to bring under their Lordships' notice a case of practical injustice. His object was to call attention to the state of the political prisoners who were now confined at Naples. Since he gave notice of his intention to take this course, he had received, from a source to him most unexpected, strong confirmation as to the grievous nature of the evils of which these prisoners had to complain, and as to the extraordinary number of persons who were at this moment suffering within the limits of the Neapolitan kingdom under the tyranny and oppression of those whom they regarded as invaders. Within the last few days, Signer Ricciardi, a Neapolitan deputy, of strong democratic opinions, stated in strong terms in the Parliament at Turin that he thought it his duty to call attention to the unfortunate condition of the Southern Italian Provinces. That gentleman made the startling assertion that at the present moment the prisons of Naples contained no fewer than 16,000 persons, who were confined in overcrowded cells, and suffered every kind of misery. When this statement was made in the Italian Parliament by Signor Ricciardi, it was not denied by Signor Ratazzi; but, on the following day, the Minister of Justice returned to the subject to express his conviction that the number of prisoners must have been exaggerated. Signor Ricciardi would not, however, abandon a single iota of his allegation, but repeated it in the most positive manner, adding that he derived his information from official docu- 1481 ments. As the Minister of Justice no longer ventured to contradict it, they had a right to infer that it was true. If so, what a wretched state of things did those figures disclose, and how unanswerable was their pathetic eloquence. It was impossible to reconcile them with the existence of any system which respected the rights of the people and the liberty of the subject. And what was the popular element that could be adduced on the other side? His noble Friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs said, on a former occasion, that the popular will, which had now found expression under a constitutional Government, was sufficient to preserve popular rights from invasion. But it was a very startling and significant fact, that out of the population of 8,000,000 which was contained on the terra firma of the kingdom of Naples, only 25,000 persons could be induced to vote at the parliamentary elections, only one person in 320 of the population. So that while 16,000 persons were thrown into prison for resisting what was supposed to be the will of the people, that will was expressed by only 25,000 persons. It appeared also that the prisoners were now subjected to torture, in order to extract confessions from them. Much had been said about the prisons under the late régime, and, no doubt, great cruelties were then perpetrated by some of the subordinate officers under the pretence of enforcing prison discipline; but at least they were free from the charge of torturing prisoners for the purpose of extorting confession. He had upon a former occasion cited a statement, which had been published in France, made by these prisoners, asserting that the practice of torture had been proved by one of its victims in the presence of Commissioners sent by the British Government to examine into these cases. His noble Friend opposite had objected to the term "Commissioners," and denied that any Commission had been sent for such a purpose. Subsequent information which he (the Marquess of Normanby) had received, had reiterated that persons saying they visited the prison with the authority of the English Ministry had heard from a Captain de Blasio the details of the cruel flagellation to which he had been subjected with scourges of nerfs de bæuf, for the sake of extracting from him the names of the Bourbonist Committee. These executioners never ceased to strike till he was extended 1482 inanimate on the floor. By whatever name his noble Friend might choose to call these soi-disant official visitors, it was important to know whether this information had been forwarded to him. Such was probably the case, as he had heard no denial of the fact of torture in prison; but an attempt to excuse it on the supposition that perhaps some of the old employés of the Bourbon Government remained! When the whole of the magistracy, 1,600 in number, had been changed, notwithstanding Sir James Hudson's statement that the magistracy were irremovable, it was not very likely that the gaolers would remain the same, or that their presence could account for a practice of which they had no previous experience. It might, perhaps, be said that we had no business to meddle with the internal affairs of another country; but that remark could scarcely proceed from the noble Lord the present Prime Minister of England, who was renowned for his aggravating interference with the domestic arrangements of other States, nor from the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, whose interference with the prisons of Naples under the former state of things had been severely condemned by the editor of a Neapolitan journal who was now a deputy. He would read to the House the very words lately published by M. Petrocello della Gattina, in which that sincere revolutionist spoke rather disparagingly of the nature of the assistance he and his party had derived from Mr. Gladstone—
It is time to have done with these fétiches. Poerio is a conventional invention of the Anglo-French press. When we were agitating Europe, and exciting it against the Bourbons of Naples, we wanted to personify the negation of tint horrible dynasty; we wanted to present every morning to the readers of Liberal Europe a living, palpitating, visible victim, whom that ogre Ferdinand used to devour raw at every meal. For this purpose we invented Poerio… The English and French press excited the appetite of that great philanthropist, Gladstone, who repaired to Naples to see with his own eyes this new sort of man in an iron mask. He saw him. He was moved, and like us he set to work to magnify the victim, in order to render the oppressor more odious. He exaggerated the punishment, in order the more to irritate public opinion, and Poerio was created from top to toe. The real Poerio has taken seriously the Poerio whom we had been fabricating for twelve years in articles at three-halfpence a line. Those also have taken him seriously, who, without knowing anything about him, had read what we related about him.He did not believe that Signer Poerio was better or worse than his companions. He had, as had they all, the grievances of a 1483 long imprisonment. But he the (Marquess of Normanby) had an opportunity on the spot of collecting indisputable evidence that one of the instances of cruel treatment given to the public on official authority, was the corrupt invention of a worthless informant of the British Legation. Whatever had formerly been the abuses in these prisons, it was impossible to deny that they had all been aggravated under the present system. He hoped the noble Earl the Foreign Secretary would give a careful and explicit answer; but he could not refrain from reminding the House that they had had two striking instances in the present Session of the want of information by the noble Earl in matters pertaining to Italy. He had asked a question about a particular proclamation, and the noble Earl replied that he was sure such a document could not be in existence, because Sir James Hudson had never communicated the fact to him. It turned out that such a proclamation had been issued, and a Motion for papers for other proclamations of a similar nature led to the avowal on the part of Sir James Hudson that of all these proclamations in force last year he had never said one word to the Secretary of State. These proceedings, of which the noble Earl remained in contented ignorance, had caused the telegraph from the Emperor of the French, that if the Sardinian Government went on in that way, the sympathies of Europe would be alienated from their cause. The second instance was in the matter of the press prosecutions, when the noble Earl was equally wrong in giving a denial, and founding it upon a statement of Count Cavour some time before, that the Opposition press might publish whatever they pleased, when it had since been proved that accumulated prosecutions, leading to sentences of unequalled severity, had been instituted by the Government of Count Cavour and his successors against all journals that attempted to assert the liberty of the press in that free country. The noble Marquess concluded by moving an Address for—Copies or Extracts of any Letters, Reports, or Information of any shape, received by the Secretary of State, as to the Treatment of Political Prisoners at present in Confinement at Naples.
§ EARL RUSSELLI am sorry that the information which I have to give to the noble Marquess is of the most meagre kind, because I really have not received any ac- 1484 count of the transactions to which he refers. Indeed, my noble Friend himself does not seem to have any great store of information about them, or he would not have entertained us with a reference to affairs so long past as the treatment of Baron Poerio, and the other persons whose oppression by the late Government has been so vividly described by Mr. Gladstone. He referred to Baron Poerio's imprisonment, which certainly does not seem to have much or anything to do with the treatment of political prisoners under the present Government. My noble Friend says that Baron Poerio is entirely a mythical personage—an invention of ours; all I can say to that is, that I have seen Baron Poerio as a living personage. I believe he has at all times been considered a person of great truth and respectability, and I certainly heard from him that he was ten years in prison—not, perhaps, in a dungeon underground, as some persons have stated with considerable exaggeration, but still strictly confined—so strictly that no news of what was passing externally ever reached him with the permission of the Neapolitan Government. I have also conversed with several other gentlemen, and one of them, to whom I expressed my regret that he should have been ten years confined in prison, said to me, "It is true that I have been harshly confined for ten years, but I would rather have been confined for ten years longer than that the detestable Government under which I suffered should be restored." That shows at least the sense which that gentleman entertained of the nature of the former Government. With regard to the other stories into which the noble Marquess entered, it is scarcely necessary for me to refer to them at length. If he will read Mr. Gladstone's letters again, he will find there statements to show that the former Government of Naples was as detestable a Government as over existed on the face of the globe. For my own part, I must say, as I have said before, that I heartily rejoice in its overthrow; and I should much regret if on the face of the globe, especially in Europe, there should exist a Government so cruel and so corrupt, which introduced among its subjects such habits of falsehood and subornation, and at the same time committed against them such atrocious acts of injustice. These are my opinions. I know my noble Friend differs from them; but I do not feel, as he does, any sort of doubt that Italy will make great progress as a 1485 nation. I have just heard that two great Powers of Europe, Russia and Prussia, are disposed to recognise the new kingdom of Italy. That new kingdom, of which my noble Friend seems to have so poor an opinion, is therefore making its way to its recognition by all the Powers of Europe. With regard to the particular cases which my noble Friend pointed out to me, I have not that knowledge which he supposes me to have. I did not appoint any Commission, or agent, or any person to make any inquiries about them; but Mr. Bonham, our Consul General, informed me that he had sent a gentleman, in whom he had confidence, Mr. Douglas, in consequence of some complaints which Mr. Bishop had made as to his treatment in prison. Mr. Bishop complained that his person had been searched, and that he had not yet been brought to trial. Mr. Douglas was told that Mr. Bishop was treated with great consideration and lenity, not to say favour; that he had an apartment to himself, and a very convenient one. Mr. Bonham said that the only cause of complaint which Mr. Bishop had was, that he had not been brought to trial earlier. I agree that that was a very fair ground of complaint, and I have more than once told Sir James Hudson to complain officially that Her Majesty's Government considered it a hardship that Mr. Bishop, being accused of treasonable practices, should not have been brought to trial. I have heard within the last few days that the lists of the jury have been completed, or at least will have been completed, on this very day— the 7th of July—that an assassination case would be first taken, that the case of Count Christen would immediately follow, and that Mr. Bishop's trial would then commence. I will not enter into the question of the evidence which may be brought forward against this gentleman. I shall be glad if it turns out that there is no evidence to show that he was cognizant of the treasonable practices with which he was charged. I shall be very glad, too, if Count Christen cannot be found guilty of the charges brought against him. That is a matter, however, for trial, and I think it is a very wrong thing to enter into questions of evidence which may be brought against any person who may be brought to trial. With respect to certain prisoners having been tortured in prison, Mr. Bonham has not given me any information on the subject up to the present time. I sent the information which the noble Marquess gave me to 1486 Mr. Bonham on the 26th or 27th May, and I have not yet received any answer. I certainly could not undertake to say that the Neapolitan gaolers may not have resorted to some of the means to which they have been formerly accustomed. I certainly will not undertake to say that those persons, who have been educated under the former Government of Naples, and who have been participators in all the methods of injustice practised by that Government, may not have resorted to some species of torture. We know perfectly well what kind of persons were employed by the late Government, and it would be preposterous to think that these persons would all at once become pure administrators of justice and would not, on behalf of their present masters, resort to some of those practices for which they were commended and rewarded by their former employers. Those who were employed in these prisons by the late Government of Naples knew very well what the "cap of silence" meant, and all the other instruments of torture described by Mr. Gladstone. I cannot, therefore, undertake to answer on this point. Moral improvement is always of slow growth, I believe; but I believe some improvement is taking place. Even the material improvement of the construction of railroads in the southern portion of Italy will tend to create a better system and to dispel the dark ignorance that the priestly party have encouraged with so much perseverance and success in those provinces. Mr. Bonham says, as I have already stated, that Mr. Bishop's trial will immediately take place, and there fore we shall soon learn the result. I certainly do not think that we can officially call upon the Italian Government in respect of the mode in which they conduct these trials. I do believe that if ever a revolution was justified by the misgovernment of former rulers, it was the revolution which has resulted in the establishment of the present Government. With regard to Tuscany, there was not so much ground of complaint against the old Government; but still, even there, there is great improvement; and I certainly have heard, not only from official sources, but from persons who have travelled in the country, that enterprise and activity, information, education, and I may say content, are making such progress that it is something wonderful to witness. The South has not, indeed, improved so much, nor could it be expected that could happen in a day; but still im- 1487 provement is making progress even there. I have no objection to produce any papers which relate to the matter.
§ THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHI do not share the regret expressed by the noble Earl (Earl Russell) on account of the meagre information he is able to furnish to the noble Marquess, because I think we are not entitled to inquire into the treatment of persons who are not British subjects. Diplomatic transactions are carried on according to the law of nations; they must rest on some one uniform law; and, no doubt, it is our interest and our duty to uphold that law, which was established for the protection of all States, the strong and the weak alike. But I think it is most desirable that we should not consider Italy in a condition of pupilage; and if she were, we are not her censors and tutors. However desirous we all are, from one end of the country to the other, or with very few exceptions, that Italy should become a great, happy, well-governed, and powerful nation, the best thing we can do is to leave to her altogether the management of her own affairs. There will be no feeling of independence, no good Government, no free or independent line of policy in Italy till she feels she is treated as one of the great States of Europe, respected by all, and permitted to manage her affairs by herself and by the use of her own means.
LORD BROUGHAMentirely concurred with his noble Friend who had just addressed their Lordships; he therefore wished to ask whether it was true, as he was rather led to expect from what had fallen from the noble Earl (Earl Russell), that Russia had acknowledged the kingdom of Italy. If so, he (Lord Brougham) heartily rejoiced in the event, which he considered to be of no small importance.
§ EARL RUSSELLI believe it is perfectly true that Russia has declared its intention to recognise the kingdom of Italy. The Government of Russia has made a communication—though it may not yet have reached Turin—that, on certain assurances being given by the Government of Italy—which I have no doubt the Government of the King of Italy will readily give—the formal recognition of its independence will follow. I believe that Russia requires assurances to this effect— that the intentions of Italy towards its neighbours are pacific, and that the Confederation of Germany, and particularly Austria, shall not be an object of aggression on the part of Italy.
LORD BROUGHAMventured to hope that nothing would happen in Italy to throw any obstacle in the way of an event so desirable as the acknowledgment of the independence of Italy by the Powers of Europe.
§ THE EARL OF HARROWBYexpressed his hearty concurrence in what had fallen from the noble Earl (the Earl of Ellenborough). If the English Government attempted to exercise a continual control over Italian affairs, we should soon have telegrams from Paris apprising us that the same course was being taken by the French Government with much more injurious effect. The noble Marquess had spoken of Baron Poerio as a myth; but he was now alive and in as good health as could be expected, and there was no doubt that he had gone through the trials which had been referred to; and he himself had seen the excavation in the rock of Palermo where the Baron was confined for eight or ten months before his trial without light. It was wonderful for a person who, like himself, had just come from Italy to hear the language of the noble Marquess in reference to that country. Everybody recognised the existence of the Italian Kingdom except the noble Marquess; and he would soon be the single person left who spoke of it in such language. No one could have gone through Italy without remarking the very different spirit that now existed there compared with that which once prevailed. There was now a sense of freedom, a sense of development and progress, a looking upward, that contrasted strongly with the former despondency and downheartedness. Instead of conspiracy there was now free discussion in Parliament and the press. There was improvement moral and material in every direction. There had been a realization of the idea of Italian unity, on which no one could have calculated. he had met with persons who said, "We were the last to give up the idea of the autonomy of our own country; but when we looked around and saw the battle-fields of Franco and Italy, and when we considered that we were small States in the midst of improvement; that if we remained so, there would be no encouragement for development by improved communication, there then flashed over the land the wish to be free." No doubt some of the consequences of the former maladministration still remained. It was in the nature of despotism to corrupt; if it were not so, it would not be the odious thing it was; and 1489 where it had existed the longest, the corruption had gone deepest, and was the most difficult to eradicate. It was proved by this very delay in bringing persons to trial. The magistrates, notoriously open to corrupt influences, could not be trusted to administer justice, and where they had to employ old and corrupt agents, injustice must in some cases occur. It must be to the interest of every Government to accelerate the process of improvement as much as possible, and encourage Italy to make the most rapid strides in every species of material and moral development. He wished their Lordships could have seen, as he had seen, the different spirit which now pervaded that country in comparison with its state under its former rulers. In consequence of the extension of railway and steamboat communication, a vast improvement had taken place, and North and South Italy might be considered as portions of one great and united nation. There were no longer Neapolitans, Tuscans, Piedmontese, but members of one united country — a country fit to hold up its head in the congress of nations, and regarded there as among the most powerful, and the most respected. He trusted, therefore, that the advice so wisely offered by his noble Friend (the Earl of Ellenborough) would be taken, and that henceforward Italy, having been recognised by France, Russia, and Prussia, would be treated as a great and independent nation. As to the South of Italy, a false impression had been created in the public mind as to the extent of brigandage, and it had been urged that its existence was a proof of the general dissatisfaction of the people. But what were the facts? The brigands, throughout the Neapolitan States did not exceed a thousand in number, and out of the fifteen different provinces only five were infested by them. And what sort of persons composed these brigand bands? Why, in many cases liberated galley-slaves; and he believed it was a fact that the noble Marquess's friends, the Bourbons, had not found a single officer of the old Bourbon army to command these men. No doubt there were some foreign officers among them—Belgians, Spaniards, some French, and some Irish; but when people were led away with the notion that because this brigandage existed the people of the Neapolitan States were dissatisfied with the change of Government, let them remember that there had been times when not more than 1,000 troops were left in 1490 Naples, and the town and neighbourhood had, in fact, been left in the hands of the National Guard alone. All over the country, even in the most disturbed districts, these National Guards were enrolled, and represented, with very few exceptions, the respectable and the educated classes. What could be better evidence of the feeling of the people of Italy and of their liking for the existing Government? Having been in the country for several months past, and having met with every class of society, all said — merchants, workmen, politicians, professors, down to the very fishermen and steamboat crew—that to return to the Bourbons was an impossibility—was too horrible to be thought of; while a French prince or a republic found not much greater favour. Although there were difficulties in the establishment of a Government like that of Italy, although there might be defects of administration, and discontent at those defects, this was no more than might be expected. He believed that throughout Italy the disposition to return to the Bourbons was much less than the feeling in favour of the Stuarts which existed in this country after the Revolution; and if his noble Friend had been in the country, as he had, and had seen the present feeling of the people, he would have returned a devoted friend of the existing Government, instead of singing now the last dying song of the Bourbons.
THE MARQUESS OF NORMANBYin reply said, that he had at first been much puzzled to know from what sources his noble Friend had collected his information; but he was convinced now that his noble Friend was very little acquainted with what was going on in Italy. Only one thousand brigands in the kingdom of Naples ! The British Consul had last year reported that there was only five hundred; and after twelve mouths' experience had he tried to persuade his noble Friend that there were now only one thousand? Had his noble Friend ever inquired how many times that number had been shot without trial? Why, was his noble Friend aware that 60,000 Piedmontese soldiers had been sent into the various provinces to suppress the state of brigandage, and that these had been so reduced by contests with the brigands, sickness, and other causes, that only 25,000 now remained? And then, as to the National Guard, was his noble Friend aware that within the last week such had been the march of discontent in that kingdom 1491 that General La Marmora upon one occasion endeavoured to collect the National Guard, and out of 20,000 only 1,200 appeared; whereupon, counselled by this defeat, he did not on the next day repeat the attempt? Was he aware of the great financial disorder which existed, and of the great increase of taxation? His noble Friend had spoken a great deal about his personal observation of the state of Italy. It was true that his noble Friend had been in Italy, and he had not; but there were other ways of obtaining accurate notions of what was going on—namely, by communicating with well-informed people. It might be as well to read other newspapers besides the Government gazettes. It did not follow, because a person had been in Italy, and had looked out of his carriage window as he passed through the country, that he should know what was transpiring. With regard to the advice that Italy should be left to itself as well as other countries, he cordially agreed in it; but had that been the policy of the English Government during the last twelve years? Why, the English Government had been in the habit of reading sermons to the King of Naples, and of addressing him in despatches so threatening that everybody said, "If you wish to do anything, this is not the way to do it." He only wished that the advice in question had been followed by the English Government during the last twelve years. The noble Earl the Foreign Secretary had attributed the present condition of Italy to the consequences of the misgovernment of the last dynasty, and he said that some of the functionaries of the late Bourbon Government had continued in office. That statement, however, had been contradicted by his noble Friend who last addressed their Lordships, and who had said that it was impossible any one of the functionaries of the old Government should have been so left to retain office under the new order of things. But, if not one of the old functionaries had been left, how could the present state of things be traced to the old Government? If his noble Friend had really been in Italy for five months, and had read any other papers than those under the special patronage of the Piedmontese Government, how was it that he had heard no charges of maladministration and corruption made against the great functionaries? He was, indeed, surprised to hear the Secretary of State refer again to the old story of the "cap of silence," as if its application at any time 1492 within the prisons of Sicily had not been distinctly disproved, and deserved the ridicule attached to the elaborate charge. A woodcut of this cap had headed an article in a Ministerial paper, calling upon the electors on the day of the dissolution in 1857 to support a Government which alone prevented the use of such instruments of torture. It turned out that that engraving was a facsimile of one which had appeared in a report on English prison discipline made by French commissioners sent over by Louis Philippe. That cap of silence was invented not at Palermo, but at Manchester; and not for the purpose of suppressing Italian patriots, but for putting a check on the eloquence of such of the Lancashire witches as had the misfortune to be in prison.
§ THE EARL OF HARROWBYsaid, he did not know, nor did he believe, that the Piedmontese army in Southern Italy had suffered to the extent described by the noble Marquess in their contests with the brigands.
§ Motion agreed to.