§ THE EARL OF DERBYYour Lordships will remember that I gave notice the other night that I should ask a Question of the noble Earl the Foreign Minister respecting the issue of a certain Proclamation in the territory of Naples. The answer that I then received, or rather the statement which the noble Earl the Secretary for Foreign Affairs then made, that he had not himself any knowledge of the document to which I referred, and that he could not obtain any information upon it in the Foreign Office, took me rather by surprise, and renders it necessary for me to alter somewhat the form of the Question which I am about to put. As the noble Earl has now in his possession the paper containing the proclamation, I hope that his answer will be such as will be satisfactory both to your Lordships and to the country. Immediately after quitting the House on Tuesday night, I sent the noble Earl a copy of the paper in which the original Italian proclamation appeared, and also a copy of the French newspaper L'Union into which it was translated. Although I could wish that there was no possibility for doubt as to the authenticity of the proclamation, I am afraid there can be very little question about it. I think I heard upon the evening when I first mentioned this subject a sort of soft and incredulous laugh on the part of some of your Lordships, and I was not surprised at it, because I can well understand that it was difficult to believe in the reality of 772 the proclamation. I have a literal translation of the document in question, and with your Lordships' permission I will read it to the House. I may say that, though it is issued by a commandant of a detachment of infantry, it professes to be issued by the direction and under the orders of the Prefect of the province—an officer directly responsible to the Government. It is as follows:—
Order of the Commandant of the Detachment of the 8th Regiment of Infantry in Lucera.In consequence of orders received from the Prefect of this province, with the view of arriving by all the most effective measures at the prompt suppression of brigandage, the undersigned gives notice—1. That from henceforth no person shall set foot in the woods of Dragonaro, Sta. Agata, Silva Nera, Gargano, Santa Maria, Pietra, Motta, Volturara, Volturino, Sammarco, Alonza, Carlantino, Macchione di Biccari, Vetruscelle, Case Rotte.2. Every proprietor, agent, or farmer, immediately after the publication of this notice, must withdraw from the said woods, all the labourers, shepherds, goatherds, &c, and all the cattle now therein, destroying the hovels and cottages occupied by them, and by the persons engaged in tending them.3. No one from henceforth may carry from the villages provisions for the use of the farmsteads, nor may these last possess more of these than may be absolutely necessary for one day's sustenance for the number of persons attached to the said farmsteads.4. All persons contravening this order (which shall have full effect two days after its publication) shall be treated, without exception of time, place, or person, as brigands, and as such shot.In publishing this order the undersigned intimates to proprietors to give early notice to their dependents, in order that, avoiding as far as possible the application of the above rigorous measures, they may effect the object which the Government proposes to itself; warning all persons at the same time that the measures themselves will be applied with the utmost stringency.Now, my Lords, I will not insult your Lordships by making a single comment upon the terms of this proclamation. I lay it before you and before the world in all its native atrocity. The only remark that I will make upon it, is that it is a proclamation emanating from a Government which professes to have been accepted by the country of which this district forms a part, unanimously and by the test of universal suffrage, which claims to be recognised as a deliverance from tyranny and oppression, and which has been telling you for months past week by week that it is putting down without difficulty the slight remains of insubordination, disorder, and revolt which prevail in certain districts. I will not inquire into the character of the revolts against the con- 773 stituted authority of the country. I will not say whether these revolts arise from political feelings derived in any degree from attachment to the exiled family, I will not say how far their abettors may be governed by less worthy and respect able motives. I think it very likely that they may be something of a mixed character—that they may be political, and there may be something like brigandage in them; and therefore I do not complain that the Government in possession should endeavour by all legitimate means to put an end to such a state of rapine and disorder. But I say proclamations of this tendency are a disgrace to humanity itself. Every mind must revolt against a measure which seeks to pacify a country by desolating a whole district, stripping it of in habitants, cattle, and houses, in point of fact, creating a desert and calling it peace; and which subjects an unoffending peasant only for having in his house more food than is absolutely necessary for the supply of the daily wants of his family, to suffer death without a trial at the hands of a baffled and infuriated soldiery. The document is now in the noble Earl's hands; and I have that confidence in the genuine love of freedom which has always distinguished the noble Earl, that I am quite sure I do not feel more indignant at the tone of the proclamation than the noble Earl himself. Upon former occasions I believe the Emperor of the French has remonstrated in strong terms against the brutal ferocity with which affairs have been conducted in the Neapolitan territory by both parties. In another case, of perhaps much less importance, where, as in this case, civil convulsions are going on, and where we have only diplomatic relations with the Government in actual authority, the noble Earl himself has remonstrated. The noble Earl felt it necessary to remonstrate with the Government of the United States upon the sinking of stone ships at the mouth of a harbour, as an extraordinary and unjustifiable proceeding. But what comparison is there between sinking stone ships at the mouth of a harbour and such atrocities as are set forth and commanded by authority in this proclamation? This country, if it has persevered in a system of non-interference in the affairs of Italy, has, at all events, given to the Italian cause largely of its moral sympathy. It has winked very hard indeed at proceedings which it would be difficult to reconcile with political mo- 774 rality; and I think Her Majesty's Government have a legitimate claim to appeal to those in authority in Italy, and to warn the Italian Government against a course of conduct which must be revolting to every man possessed of ordinary humanity. I am satisfied, and I am sure the j noble Earl will agree with me, that a proclamation of such an infamous character must tend more than anything to alienate the sympathies of Europe, by which the Italian cause is supported, and to retard a cause which we know the noble Earl has at heart. I wish to ask, whether the noble Earl has received any information from Sir James Hudson, to whom this proclamation must have been known? I wish to know whether Sir James Hudson has communicated it to the noble Earl, and has expressed any opinion upon it; and, whether Sir James Hudson has taken upon himself to represent, in a friendly way, to the Government of Turin the effect which will be produced upon the feelings of this country by the appearance of such a proclamation? I wish also to ask, as the noble Earl is now in possession of the proclamation, and docs not deny its authenticity, whether he is prepared to call on Sir James Hudson to explain why he has not taken any notice of it (if he has not), and whether the noble Earl will instruct Sir James Hudson at once to represent in the strongest terms to the Government of Italy the feelings with which this Government views such a course to put down revolt; with the assurance, which may fairly be given, that nothing can tend so far as measures of the kind to defeat the object I of a great majority of this country, to obtain for Italy whether united Italy or not—after so many centuries of misgovernment the advantages of a limited and temperate monarchy and constitutional liberties for the people?
§ EARL RUSSELLIn answering the noble Earl, I will first address myself to I the character of the notification or proclamation which he has brought under your Lordships' notice. I entirely agree with him in all he has said of the character of that proclamation. 1 think nothing can be more cruel, more barbarous, than to issue such a proclamation—involving the innocent with the guilty, spreading desolation over a large district of country, interfering with the pursuits of industry, and making the Government a terror even to all well-disposed inhabitants. I should add, also, that I think such a proclamation 775 would be most impolitic. This is not the manner in which a country can be pacified. This is not the manner in which the inhabitants of a district can be conciliated to the rule of the Government which is put over them. But, my Lords, with regard to its authenticity, I must say I have no evidence. At first sight it would seem that no persons would venture to publish in a newspaper circulated at Turin, whatever its politics might be, a document of this nature which was not genuine—a document casting upon the character of the Italian Government an imputation which, if just, would be most calamitous. The newspaper in question is the Armonia. It is a newspaper well known for its strong political and ecclesiastical opposition to the Government, and it is a newspaper which on those subjects has great influence. Perhaps your Lordships will allow me to mention a conversation which I once had with the late Count Cavour, which bears upon this subject. I stated to Count Cavour that an opponent of the Turin Government had said that they laboured under great disadvantages, for while the Liberal newspapers which were guilty of libel were always acquitted, the newspapers which defended the cause of ancient institutions, as they were called—the cause of despotism, or the cause of bigotry as I should call it—in Italy were invariably condemned. That is a charge, I said, which is made against you by your political opponents. Count Cavour said, "It is perfectly true. The newspapers on our side are generally acquitted, and certainly when the Opposition newspapers have been brought before the tribunals, they have generally been condemned. But this unfairness has struck me so much that I have given an order that no Government prosecution shall be issued against those newspapers. They may say exactly what they please. They may libel me as much as they like. I am determined they shall not be prosecuted for anything which they may say." This may, perhaps, in some degree account for the licence to which those newspapers have given themselves up. I have heard of instances in which documents published in those newspapers have been afterwards found not to be genuine, and I trust that this is one of those instances. I am confirmed in that hope by the absence of testimony on the one hand, and by what I have heard in conversation on the other. In the first place, this proclamation, 776 which was published on the 19th of February at Turin, has not been noticed by our Minister at Turin in any manner, and has not been noticed by Her Majesty's Consul at Naples, though it would naturally come under his observation. And, in the next place, I have been told that the proclamation bears a strong resemblance, if it be not a literal copy of a proclamation published in 1810 by the then Government of Naples. This, I confess, gives me great reason to doubt the genuineness of the document. For the sake of the Italian Government, and as the noble Earl has said for the sake of humanity, I shall be glad to find that it is not genuine, and that no such notification has been issued by any officer of the King of Italy. There has been, no doubt, in other instances great severity of treatment of those who are brigands, and who are disturbing the southern provinces of Italy. But I must state that the present position of the Government of the King of Italy in the southern provinces is put to a very hard trial. There does not exist, as the noble Earl would seem to imply, any civil war in Italy. The parties who are found committing murders and robberies are parties generally of from ten to twenty persons. They rarely exceed that number, although sometimes perhaps forty or fifty have collected. They come into the country. They occupy these woods. They are attacked by the regular troops of the King of Italy. In some instances they are dispersed, and the country is for a moment freed from them. They fall back into the territories of the Pope. At the frontier of those territories the Italian troops are stopped. These men are disarmed by the French troops who occupy those territories; but these men who have been committing robbery and murder go to the Government of the Pope, are reclothed and rearmed, and in a few days the whole work has to be done over again. Of course, it cannot be expected that the Government of the Pope should have much friendship towards the King of Italy. But, in the common course of conduct between neighbours, it might be supposed that peace would be preserved. These men, as I have said, are not men carrying on civil war. In the time of Francis I. they committed robbery and murder, and took the name of carbonari, or any other name, to cover their designs; at the present they take the name, and I do not think they do much honour to it, of Francis II. I know that the sub- 777 jeet has been one of great anxiety to the Government of Italy. Not very long ago I received a communication from Turin stating that Baron Ricasoli, the head of the Italian Administration, had said that though during the winter these robbers and brigands, not finding any very secure refuge, had been put down to a great extent; yet, as they could more easily obtain food and shelter in the spring and summer, it was to be feared that these disturbances would again arise. I must say, however, that the issuing of such proclamations as that which has been quoted is not the way to support the King's authority. While, on the one hand, it is terrible that such a proclamation should be issued—if it really was issued—by any person bearing the honourable scars of regular warfare, and acting under the orders of a regular Government, it is, on the other hand, equally frightful that the cause—for it is said to be a cause—of the dispossessed Sovereigns of Italy should be maintained, not by regular warfare against the King of Italy, but by small bands of brigands let loose from time to time merely in the hope that an argument may be raised against the Government of Italy, so that it may be possible to say, "You see how incapable that Government is of governing according to law, and reducing the country to order," But in spite of all these difficulties I have the greatest confidence that there will be established in Italy a Government combining liberty and order. I confess here, as I have confessed elsewhere, that I have the greatest admiration of the noble attitude of the Italian people. When we compare the conduct of that Government and people with the conduct of other peoples and other assemblies in times of revolution, they have no reason to be ashamed. I think they have shown that they are worthy of the liberty they seek, and I trust that their independence will, before long, be acknowledged by all nations.
§ THE EARL OF DERBYThe noble Earl has made a very eloquent and impassioned speech, but he omitted altogether to answer any of the questions which I put to him. My object was not to obtain from the noble Earl an expression of opinion with respect to the general conduct of the Italian Government and people, but I want to know whether he received any information respecting this supposed proclamation from Sir James Hudson? On Tuesday last I made the noble Earl acquainted with the existence of this docu- 778 ment, and if he entertained any doubt of its genuineness, he might have received a telegraphic communication from Italy upon the subject before this day. But now that the alleged proclamation has been placed before the noble Earl, under a form in which I hardly think that any newspaper would venture to insert it if it were not genuine, with the name of the officer by whom it was understood to be issued, and affording the Government an easy opportunity of contradicting it if it were unfounded, I have to ask the noble Earl whether he has called, or whether he intends to call, on Sir James Hudson to explain why he has not forwarded the document to the Foreign Office; and to ask him further, whether, supposing the document to be authentic, it is his intention, on the part of her Majesty's Government, to address to the Government of Turin those representations which the nature of the case seems to me to demand?
§ EARL RUSSELLI thought I had stated that I had received no information on the subject from Sir James Hudson or the consul at Naples with respect to this document, and I stated the reasons why I suspected it was not genuine. The first thing was to ascertain whether it was genuine or not. I did not telegraph to Sir James Hudson until yesterday, and I have not yet had an answer. If I should ascertain, contrary to my expectation, that the document is genuine, I shall then make such communications on the subject as I think are fitting to the Government of the Kingdom of Italy. They must be such communications as we may consider fitting, because the case is not on a level with that of the stone fleet, and I shall hardly notice it otherwise than in the most friendly manner, and for the sake of the Italian Government.
§ THE EARL OF MALMESBURYI hope I may be permitted to suggest to the noble Earl that if he finds this document is genuine, and if he also finds that his agents in Turin and in Naples, have not sent it to the Foreign Office, and have not made any representations on their own parts to the Government of Italy, the noble Earl should express his opinion to those agents with respect to their conduct. It is impossible to ascertain in this country what is taking place in Italy. There is so much exaggeration in the statements upon both sides in that coun- 779 try that it is impossible for the English people or the English Government to learn what is the absolute truth unless through the faithful report of our own agents in that country.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLThese homilies, I think, would come very much better after it has been ascertained that the document is genuine. But I have reason to believe that it is not genuine. I happened last night to be in company with an Italian gentleman—as well known in English as in Italian society—who has just come from Turin, and I asked him whether he had seen any proclamation of the sort. He told me that he recollected having heard a short time ago that such a proclamation had appeared in the Armonia newspaper, and that it came to the ears of the Italian Government by that means for the first time. Upon strict inquiry it was found to be an entire falsehood—a rechauffé, in fact, of an old proclamation, published under the Government of Murat, when that Government was engaged in putting down brigandage. I myself passed through Turin within the last few weeks, and I heard there many complaints from various persons of what they considered the extreme laxity of the Italian Government in taking steps to put an end to brigandage. I should regret very much to find that such a proclamation was genuine; but, from the private information which I have received, I sincerely hope that it may be found not to be the case.
§ THE EARL OF DERBYIt is a great pity that the noble Earl did not communicate his information to the Foreign Secretary.