§ The EARL,OF DERBY, presented petitions against: the Revised Code of the Committee on Education, and said: My Lords I will take this opportunity to put a question to the noble Earl the President of the Council, or rather to offer a suggestion to her Majesty's Government, with regard of the course to be pursued in bringing under the consideration of Parliament the newly-revised Code. When that Code first made its appearance, it excited from one end of the country to the other the strongest possible feelings of apprehension and dislike. Subsequently Her Majesty's Government made important modifications, and, as far as they go, great improvements on the original Code; but there are still many other points which deserve the serious and deliberate consideration of this and of the other House of Parliament; and it is to these that my suggestion points. I need only instance among those points the new state and condition of the pupil-teachers, the altered relations between managers and teachers, and the proposed mode of examination of the pupils in the elementary schools. As to the questions connected with the system of examination, it will have to be considered whether the examinations 344 shall be conducted upon the principle, as proposed by Government, of grouping the children according to age, or whether it will not be far preferable to group them in classes. It will also be most important to consider whether the whole amount of the teacher's remuneration shall be dependent upon an examination hastily and imperfectly conducted. I must observe that this provision is entirely at variance with the recommendations of the Royal Commission, upon which Her Majesty's Government profess to found their measure, and it is specifically at variance with the recommendations of the Commissioners that two separate classes of payment should be made. If this were a tentative experiment, liable to be changed from year to year, I might be satisfied to allow it to proceed on the single vote of the other House, and leave the alterations for future consideration. But your Lordships will recollect that it is not a tentative measure. It is intended to be a permanent system, founded mainly upon the recommendations of the Commissioners, whom I had the honour to advise the Crown to appoint, to whose impartiality my noble Friend has borne testimony, and who have displayed the greatest possible ability in collecting and presenting a mass of most valuable materials for our guidance. I cannot help thinking that the whole scheme, so matured; does require to be more seriously and deliberately considered by Parliament than can be the case if it be submitted almost for forms sake in this House, and in a shape in the other House to be simply negatives or adopted. I will do the Government the justice to any that, even at the risk of some further modifications being made, I believe they would prefer that intelligent and deliberate consideration should be given to all the details of the system, rather than it should be hastily adopted without full discussion. I do not ask Her Majesty's Government to introduce a Bill—I do not wish to tie the Privy Council down so closely as they would be tied by the clauses of a Bill—but I do ask the Government to give us an opportunity of discussing the various details which make up this great measure. If they were embodied in a Bill, I dare say your Lordships would readily accept the second reading, and discuss in Committee clause by clause seriatim the means by which it was proposed to work out this measure. What I wish the Government to do (and I suggest it for the convenience of the House, and 345 as the only means of doing justice to the measure and to themselves) is this,—to embody the whole plan in n series of Resolutions, carrying out the various details so as to enable Parliament to deal with them as with the clauses of a Bill, In that mode, and in that mode only, I believe can we come to a discussion of details which it is impossible satisfactorily to discuss in a general debate upon the whole measure. If Her Majesty's Government do not assent to the proposal, it may be said that it is quite in the option of any noble Lord in this House, or any hon. Member in the other House, to suggest Resolutions condemnatory of parts of the measure. My answer to that is, that I should prefer to avoid anything of a controversial or hostile character in the manner in which we approach the discussion of the measure. If you bring forward Resolutions condemnatory of certain portions of the scheme, it is almost impossible but that the discussions must partake of a party character or a supposed party character; whereas, if the whole scheme is submitted by the Government, there can be no such appearance of hostility, and this and the other House will have an opportunity of discussing fairly and impartially every part of a scheme, the importance of which can hardly be overrated, and which ought not to be adopted hastily or without due consideration. The question which I have to ask the noble Earl is, whether, on the part of the Government, he will be prepared to embody the provisions and the leading details of the scheme in a series of Resolutions to be submitted to this and the other House, and thus, upon each part, as well as upon the plan as a whole, to take the deliberate judgment of Parliament.
§ EARL GRANVILLEI readily bore my testimony the other evening to the very fair and candid manner in which the noble Earl treated this question, and I am glad to hear to-night that if the scheme of the Government had been proposed in the shape of a Bill he would have been prepared to affirm the principle of the measure by agreeing to the second reading. I am not about to discuss now the amendments and points which the noble Earl suggested, but will content myself with saying that I see no reason why Her Majesty's Government should depart from the usual precedent and custom in the matter. The noble Earl says this Revised Minute is different from any other altera- 346 tions; but I cannot see that it introduces any great change in the system. It is merely a completion of the former system, and it certainly is not a greater change than the original introduction of the Minutes, when it was agreed that the manner of introducing them should be by laying them on the table of both Houses, and advisedly not in the shape of a Bill. I am happy, therefore, that the noble Earl does not press for the introduction of the Revised Code in the form of a Bill. He suggests, instead, that it should be brought before Parliament in the shape of Resolutions. I am extremely anxious not to avoid discussion, for I think it most desirable that we should have the opinion of Parliament fully expressed on the matter; and, if this opinion could not be obtained except by the Government bringing forward their proposal in the shape of Resolutions, I should hesitate before I declined to take the course suggested. But it appears to me that for the puposes of discussion and eliciting opinions the matter is in precisely the same position as if the Government were to embody their proposals—which I hope will be made perfectly clear by papers which will be laid before you to morrow—in the shape of Resolutions, There would be many inconveniences attending the embodiment of our proposals in a different form, and I can assure your Lordships that we shall not consider any Resolution proposed in modification of our plan in its form as at all more hostile than an Amendment to a Resolution if we were to introduce it in that shape. We wish that the matter should be thoroughly discussed, and that Parliament should give its opinion upon it, and we shall not take advantage of any technical difficulty to overrule the opinion of Parliament. If both Houses should concur on any point not affecting any great principle of our plan, Her Majesty's Government will be open to take any course they may think most advantageous with regard to it. I believe that great advantage will be given by our plan for discussing any proposition which any independent Member may bring forward, and I do not see what there is to be gained by departing from custom and precedent. With great deference to the noble Earl, I am compelled, therefore, to decline his suggestion, and I cannot pledge myself that the Government will act in any other manner than that which they have already announced to the House.