Lords Sitting of 7 February 1862

MINUTES
PUBLIC BILL.—1a Gardens in Towns Protection.
DEBATE ON THE ADDRESS.

  EXPLANATION.
  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, he was not much in the habit of occupying the time of their Lordships with matters personal to himself, or with making observations in reference to the reported speeches of himself, or other noble Lords in that House. He very seldom read reports of his own
  88
  speeches, or of other speeches which he had the privilege of hearing. But he happened to look at the report in The Times newspaper of what he said yesterday, and there was one point, to which he could not help adverting. The report altogether was not so accurate as the reports in that paper generally were; but he did not allude to the point on account of inaccuracy, but, because the paper had attributed to him just: the opposite of what he uttered. With regard to the recognition, of the Southern Confederacy, he was reported to have said that the time; had nearly arrived when, the British Government should be called on to recognise the successful revolt of the Confederate States. Now, what he did say, was, that in his judgment the time; had not yet arrived when Her Majesty's Government was called on to recognise, the independence of the Southern States; and he added that although the practice of the British Government was to recognise any de facto Government that had succeeded in establishing itself; yet he did not think the resistance of the Southern States had been so complete and-so successful as to justify the Government, in recognising as independent a State which had not yet shown the power of vindicating and maintaining its own; independence.

THE MEMORIAL TO THE LATE PRINCE CONSORT.—QUESTION.
THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, he would put a Question to the noble Earl opposite (Earl Granville) which, perhaps, he would prefer to answer on Monday—whether Her Majesty's Government, as a Government, had any intention of bringing forward any scheme, or offering any suggestion, as to the application of the very large sums of money subscribed for the memorial to his late Royal Highness the Prince Consort? At present the subscriptions were entirely of a private character. No decision had yet been come to—he did not know, in fact, who could come to a decision—as to what was to be done with the money subscribed. It already amounted to £27,000, and many had not yet subscribed—he himself being of the number—to the memorial, in consequence of being in doubt as to the mode to be adopted in the appropriation of the money. What he wished to know was, whether Her Majesty's Government, as a Government, intended to take any steps in regard to the

89
appropriation of the subscriptions, or to indicate in any public manner, the way in which, according to their opinion, such memorial might be instituted, so as to be most gratifying to the feelings of their Sovereign? He was sure that if the public had any notion of what would be most gratifying to Her Majesty the direction thus indicated would be universally followed. In the mean while it would be well to know whether the Government intended to take any part in the matter or to leave it in the hands of irresponsible persons? Perhaps his right hon. Friend would prefer to postpone an answer to the Question till Monday.
EARL GRANVILLE:It would be more agreeable to me to make a reply on Monday.

THE NEW MINUTE ON EDUCATION.

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, he wished to ask the noble Earl the President of the Council whether he had any objection to lay on the table the Minutes in their original form, side by side with the modifications and alterations? The original and the amended Minutes might be laid on the table on Thursday, and any discussion on them might be taken with more advantage-on a future day, when their Lordships had had an opportunity of considering their effect.
  EARL GRANVILLEintended on an early day to make a statement with regard to the Minutes themselves, and he would then explain what were the alterations contemplated. He had no objection to produce both the Minutes with the modifications in them.

IMPRISONMENT OF A BRITISH SUBJECT BY THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONsaid, he was anxious to ascertain the truth, or rather to obtain from the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs a contradiction, of a story which had been in circulation during the last week or ten days. That story seemed to him to be so monstrous in the shape in which it reached this country that he was almost confident it must be full of exaggerations, but it, would be very satisfactory to hear from Her Majesty's Government what ground there was for the story.
  90
  It was to this effect—that a Canadian gentleman, a British subject, whilst travelling on an American railway, was arrested by order of Mr. Seward, Secretary of State of the United States; that he was taken to the guard-house, stripped and searched, and subjected to the grossest indignities, on the pretence that he was implicated ill some conspiracy with persons engaged in the war with the Confederated States. Nothing was found to criminate him or to inculpate him in the slightest degree; but he was taken to a prison at New York, where he was immured for several weeks, whilst typhus fever was raging in the prison, and carrying off its victims daily. There he was detained without being brought to trial—without, in fact, a charge being made against him. Communication was by some means opened with Lord Lyons, who represented his case to the United States Government, but without obtaining any redress. During that time he received several letters from the British Legation; but time seals were broken and the covers torn. The most extrordinary part of the matter, however, was, that at length, when he was offered his liberty, it was on the condition that he should forswear his own nationality and swear allegiance to the Northern States. He (the Earl of Carnarvon) could hardly believe that such a state of things was possible, but this was the story. It was said that this gentleman, with very great courage and constancy refused to accept any such conditions. He preferred, at the risk of his life and at great personal inconvenience, to remain in prison rather than accept such a discharge. He was, afterwards, removed to another prison; and after a time it was said that Lord Lyons having interposed he was offered his liberty on a condition only one degree less extraordinary than the former—namely, that he would not travel to the Southern States, nor hold any communication with the inhabitants. He refused this condition, and remained in prison from the 5th of October till the 6th of January, when he received an unconditional discharge. It was stated also that other British subjects had been subject to various restrictions, and had been treated in a manner which was in violation of international rights and privileges. He would not make any comments on this story, because he could not bring himself to believe that the facts were as they had been stated.
  EARL RUSSELLsaid, it was true that

  91
  Mr. Shaver, a British subject, had been for many weeks confined in Fort Lafayette and in another American prison. On the 29th of October, this gentleman wrote to Lord Lyons, and stated that he was travelling on the Grand Trunk Railway of Canada, that on the arrival of the train at Detroit he was arrested and sent to prison, and that, though a British subject, he had been asked to take an oath of allegiance to the Government of the United States, which he had refused to do. Lord Lyons, upon receiving this letter, made a representation thereupon to Mr. Seward; who, on the 15th of November, wrote to say that he had at first supposed that Mr. Shaver was a United States' citizen; that it was in that belief that Mr. Shaver had been asked to take the oath of allegiance; but that, though compliance with this condition could not be expected from a British subject, he could give no order for the prisoner's release, as Mr. Shaver was accused of conveying arms to the Confederate States, and was, in fact, a spy employed by the Government of those States. Mr. Shaver was then asked to enter into other conditions, one of which was that he should not enter the Southern States during the rest of the war. But he would not agree to these conditions, and he was subsequently released. Their Lordships ought to understand that Mr. Seward assumed to himself the right to arrest any person within the United States, not, perhaps, at his own pleasure alone, but with the sanction of the President, no matter whether that person was an American citizen or a foreigner. It was contended, he believed, by the lawyers of the United States that at a time of emergency such a power was intrusted to the President. Her Majesty's Government had remonstrated with the Government of the United States upon the treatment to which Mr. Shaver had been subjected, and he had no objection to produce the correspondence which had passed upon the subject.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONsaid, he was sorry to find that facts, as he had stated them, and which at the time he could scarcely bring himself to credit, were really borne out by the statement of the noble Earl. Whatever might be the state of Government or the condition of society in the United States, the pretensions put forward by Mr. Seward in respect of British citizens seemed to override all the principles which regulated
  92
  the intercourse of one friendly nation with another. Now, he thought not only that British subjects had a right to appeal to their own Government for protection, but that it was the duty of the Sovereign to afford such protection. Allegiance by the subject to the Crown, and protection from the Crown to the subject, were reciprocal duties. He should certainly move for this correspondence, because the matter was one which the House ought clearly to understand. Meanwhile, he hoped that when Her Majesty's Government had remonstrated on account of this extraordinary proceeding they had also asked for compensation to Mr. Shaver. That gentleman had been detained in prison for ten or twelve weeks, his life being thereby put in jeopardy, and yet not one single charge had been proved against him. The noble Earl then moved an Address for
  "Copy of the Correspondence with Her Majesty's Government, on the Arrest, Imprisonment, and Ill-treatment of Mr. Shaver, a Canadian Subject, under Order of Mr. Seward."
  Motion agreed to.
  House adjourned at Half-past Five o'clock, to Monday next, a Quarter before Five o'clock.