Lords Sitting of 4 April 1862

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Chancery Regulation; Pier and Harbour Act Amendment.
2a Industrial Schools Acts (1861) Amendment; Whipping.
3a Protection of Inventions and Designs (1862); Bleachfields (Women and Children Employment); Marine Mutiny.

ITALY.—PAPERS PRESENTED.
EARL RUSSELLhaving laid upon the table Papers relating to the Affairs of Italy, pursuant to Address of 17th March,
THE MARQUESS OF NORMANBYsaid, he understood that the Papers which his noble Friend had just laid upon the table were those which were moved for on the 17th of last month. He wished to take that opportunity of asking his noble Friend whether he would have any objection to lay before the House any official despatches which might have been received from Sir James Hudson at Turin, and from Mr. Bonham at Naples, with reference to those two proclamations, respecting which inquiries had been made in both Houses of Parliament; the one issued by Colonel Fantoni, the other by Major Fumel. He (the Marquess of Normanby) wished to give his reasons, of course, for making such an unusual request as that of asking

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for despatches on this subject. His reason was, that when his noble Friend admitted that such a proclamation as that of Colonel Fantoni was in existence, the explanation with which he accompanied that statement had been proved by subsequent information to have been far from correct. He understood his noble Friend to state that the proclamation of Colonel Fantoni had been immediately suppressed. It was also stated that it had never been issued. Now, information which had since arrived upon that head through the ordinary channels of intelligence was directly at variance with that statement. In the first place, unfortunately, there was very painful but practical proof that on the 20th of February four women were shot in one of the mountain districts, charged with one of the offences mentioned in Colonel Fantoni's proclamation—namely, that they had upon their persons more bread than was sufficient for one day's consumption. Such an unmanly proceeding had excited universal indignation; but it was in literal accordance with the terms of Colonel Fantoni's proclamation. If the proclamation had been acted upon at all, it must necessarily have led to some such results as this. The next circumstance which had occurred to show that this proclamation had been published was a statement which appeared in The Morning Herald. It contained a declaration from a field officer in the Piedmontese army to the effect that he had been surprised to learn the answer which had been given to Lord Derby, stating that the British Government had no cognizance of this proclamation; because he gave the names of the generals and the places where they were employed, and said that every one of these persons had been rewarded for their services. These two counterstatements had been made before the recent change in the Government at Turin, But since that change of Government, an article had appeared in the Opinione, which was not the organ of the present Government, but that of Baron Ricasoli, in which that proclamation was warmly approved, declaring that if it was wrong at all it was only in being too mild, and stating, moreover, that it had borne good fruits. But within the last twenty-four hours another document had been published, to which he wished particularly to call his noble Friend's attention. It was an order of the day, which, according to several continental papers, had been issued by Colonel Brianza, who was the superior
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officer of Colonel Fantoni, and who had been dismissed from his command in consequence of the issue of this proclamation. Colonel Brianza said—
"I was the superior officer of Colonel Fantoni, and after conferring with the political authorities I issued the proclamation; but the publication of the proclamation having been considered inopportune, I have been dismissed."
This was on the 22nd of March, about three weeks after the change of Government at Turin. He (the Marquess of Normanby) must say he thought they must infer that since the change in Government there had been a beneficial alteration as far as humanity was concerned; and he must suppose that that change had been brought about by an authority superior to that of his noble Friend. With respect to the course of action which had been pursued by Generals Cialdini and Pinelli, whilst the Prime Minister of England was openly approving these barbarities, the Emperor of the French was saying—"Let Italy take care; she is alienating the feelings of every friend of liberty." In reference to Major Fumel's proclamation he had understood his noble Friend to state that no operation or execution of the proclamation had taken place. But he was sorry to say that here also his noble Friend had been deceived; because in a newspaper published at Bologna both the number and the names of the persons who had been executed were given. Nine were mentioned at one place and six at another; and it was stated that a noble lady was shot because she would not produce the person of her daughter, who had been charged with complicity with the alleged brigands. He hoped his noble Friend would endeavour to procure some information with regard to these events from Sir James Hudson.
EARL RUSSELLsaid, it was not very easy for any person in that House to answer inquiries with respect to proceedings which were taking place in remote parts; of Italy. He would produce such despatches as the Government had relating to these cases; for example, the despatches received from Mr. Bonham at Naples, containing an account of an interview with General La Marmora, and the answers given by the General to questions bearing on the subject, together with the information afforded by him with reference to the state of that part of the country. His noble Friend had somewhat confounded the two answers which he (Earl Russell) had

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given. With respect to the proclamation of Lieut. Colonel Fantoni, he (Earl Russell) had stated that the proclamation had been printed, but that as soon as it reached the general of the district it was disapproved of. That was the statement which the Government had received from Mr. Bonham, our Consul at Naples. As to Captain or Major Fumel, he was not an officer of the army; he commanded a battalion of national guards and volunteers; and with regard to him, he believed his proclamation had never been printed, and was disapproved as soon as it was heard of. With regard to the execution of the four women, he (Earl Russell) had received only a telegram from Sir James Hudson, which he should have no objection to produce. His (Earl Russell's) belief was that the conduct of Colonel Fantoni had been disapproved, that he had been removed from his command, and that he made a bitter complaint that he was removed in consequence of the questions which had been put in that House. His noble Friend (the Marquess of Normanby) must answer that grievance, because he was, in fact, the originator of his removal. His (Earl Russell's) general statement was that the proclamation had not been acted upon, that it was intended to produce terror in the disaffected, and had not been put in execution. He should have no objection to produce any letters which had any bearing on the question.
THE MARQUESS OF NORMANBYsaid, that his noble Friend had stated that it was difficult for a person in that House to obtain information respecting events in the remote parts of Italy; but the noble Earl must recollect that he and his party had frequently put questions and had made statements in Parliament with respect to the conduct of the King of Naples and other sovereigns. His noble Friend had stated that the proclamation of Major Fumel was not published, and that he was not a regular officer. He wished to know whether his noble Friend was in a position to deny that there were two proclamations published by that officer—one at an interval of three weeks after the other; and that in one of those proclamations a reward of £5, or 100 f., was offered to any brigand who would shoot one of his comrades. Here was a distinct engagement to pay blood-money for treacherous assassination; and this could not have been merely to excite terror in the disaffected, because Major Fumel had delegated its execution to others.

EDUCATION— THE REVISED CODE OF REGULATIONS.
  INDIVIDUAL EXAMINATION.

    CORRESPONDENCE MOVED FOR.
    THE BISHOP OF OXFORD THE BISHOP OF OXFORD rose to move for the production, if it could be produced, of any Correspondence with the Committee of Privy Council on Education, or Memorials to the Committee, in which are stated the Objections of Her Majesty's Inspectors to the Examination individually of Scholars as being impracticable, as stated in Mr. Lingen's examination (Answer 425). The right rev. Prelate said, that under the present aspect of the question he should not have troubled their Lordships with any observations, but that his noble Friend the President of the Council had questioned him on a late occasion as to the accuracy of certain figures he (the Bishop of Oxford) had adduced to their Lordships when he had last the honour of addressing them on this subject. This was the first occasion on which he had an opportunity of mentioning the subject, which he thought, out of respect to their Lordships, he was bound to do. He was not himself in the House at the time when his noble Friend made that reference to the remarks which had fallen from him; but, upon referring to those organs which told them with such accuracy what took place in the course of their debates, he was surprised to find that his noble Friend had, in two instances, questioned the figures he had quoted. In the course of the remarks he ventured to make, he (the Bishop of Oxford) referred to the importance of the subject, and sought to measure that importance by showing the marvellous increase during the last fifty years in the education of the country. He stated from the evidence of the Commissioners themselves that in the year 1803 the number of scholars was 524,241, or 1 in 17½ of the population; whilst in the year 1858 it had reached 2,535,462, or 1 in 7 and a fraction. His noble Friend appeared to think that he (the Bishop of Oxford) was referring to a period of fifteen instead of fifty years; but that was an error into which it was hardly possible that he (the Bishop of Oxford) could have fallen, specially as he was at that time referring to the Commissioners' Report. The second point was that he (the Bishop of Oxford) had been erroneous in saying that so great had been the response to the movement cre-

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    ated by the Government grant, that the sum now spent on education was £2,000,000. This statement, again, was taken from the Commissioners' Report. From that Report it appeared that the income of the elementary schools was £1,121,981, and that the Government added to that sum a grant of £800,000, making together £1,921,981. This was the amount which in round number he had called £2,000,000. But in that statement it turned out that he was really below, rather than over the mark, for by other expenses for the diocesan schools and others, the total sum spent on education considerably exceeded £2,000,000. In either case it appeared to him that there could be no doubt that his statement was substantially correct. He had been anxious to make these explanations to their Lordships.
    EARL GRANVILLEwas understood to say, that from what their Lordships had just heard it appeared that he had fallen into a mistake as to the number of years mentioned by the right rev. Prelate on a former occasion. It would seem that the reporters had fallen into the same mistake; for in the printed report of the right rev. Prelate's speech, he was represented to have said "fifteen years." With respect to individual examinations, in connection with the payment of capitation grants, it had formerly been proposed by the Committee of Council that there should be an individual examination. Meetings of Inspectors were held for which the Committee was in no way responsible. At one of those meetings a very general opinion was expressed, not as the right rev. Prelate had stated, that it was impracticable to examine the children individually, but that it would not be practicable to examine them individually if they were grouped according to age, as was at that time proposed. On a representation to that effect he (Earl Granville) had agreed to a modification of the rule. Afterwards he was sorry that he had done so, although he had no doubt that the representation had been made in all sincerity; because further reflection convinced him that there was no difficulty whatever in an examination of that character, and that it would merely involve more time. He was confirmed in that opinion by what had recently been stated by a venerable Archdeacon and by other competent authorities. It appeared that various experimental examinations according to the Revised Code had actually been made, in some cases
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    with very creditable results, in others with results not quite so satisfactory. He trusted that this information would satisfy the right rev. Prelate, as there were no papers on the subject that he could lay on their Lordship's table.
    EARL STANHOPE, before the discussion closed, wished to ask his noble Friend the President of the Council when their Lordships might expect to see in a tangible form the final Resolutions of the Committee of Council. A very clear statement as to the general character of these Resolutions had been made by a right hon. Gentleman in another place; but there were one or two points which that right hon. Gentleman had left in doubt:—for instance, he had left in doubt the proportion of the grant that was to be paid on inspection. Great interest and anxiety on this subject prevailed throughout the country, and he thought a detailed statement of all the provisions of the new Code—especially in reference to the proportions of the grant to be given upon examination on the one hand, and on the character of the schools from the reports of the Inspectors on the other—at the earliest moment possible would be very desirable.
    EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he could quite understand that much interest was felt in the subject referred to by his noble Friend. The arrangement of the details of the alterations to be made in the Code would necessarily take some little time. It was not desirable to have any piecemeal arrangement of the matter; but he was very anxious to be in a position to place the proposed rules in a complete form before their Lordships; and if possible, he should do so before their Lordships separated for the recess.
    THE BISHOP OF OXFORDsaid, he had founded his Motion on a statement in the examination of Mr. Lingen, showing that the Inspectors had expressed a strong opinion as to the impracticability of the individual examination which they had been required to hold. He admitted that the noble Earl the President of the Council was quite borne out by the printed report of his speech on a former occasion; but the context showed that the word "fifteen" in that report was a mistake, and that what he must have said was "fifty." As his noble Friend said there were no papers that he could produce, he should withdraw his Motion.
    Motion, by leave of the House, withdrawn.

  POLAND—ALEXANDER ZAMAYSKI.

    QUESTION.
    LORD KINNAIRDrose, pursuant to notice, to put Question to Her Majesty's Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs as to whether he had received any Information from our Consul at Warsaw with regard to Torture having been used to extort Evidence from Alexander Zamayski. The noble Lord said he was perfectly aware of the great distaste with which any Polish subject was received; but he believed that that was owing to a misconception of the motives which had led the people of Poland to desire that their case should be brought under the notice of the English people. Their Lordships had heard so much about nationality, that they might naturally fancy that the object of all classes of the Poles was to obtain a reconstruction of the kingdom of Poland. That, however, was a mistake. He thought that no one who had means of information on the subject could fail to perceive that ever since the violation of the Treaty of Vienna and the withdrawal of the constitution granted to the Poles, all classes in Poland had made up their minds to make the best of their position in the present state of affairs, and to forward by every means in their power the interests of their country as it now stood. They had, in fact, thrown themselves with the greatest zeal into the movement for improving the industry, the education, and the agriculture of Poland. It was remarkable that this zeal was not confined to the influential classes, but was shared even by the most humble. He had received two of the latest newspapers which had been published in Poland—published in defiance of all attempts to suppress them. These prints circulated amongst the lower orders, and might therefore be supposed to represent their feelings. He found that one of them called upon the people to manifest both patience and perseverance, adding, "If we give up any foot of ground we have gained, we shall lose all." The other advised its countrymen to make the best of what had been promised them; and then it said, "With real earnestness and goodwill a harvest may be reaped from the poorest soil." The Agricultural Society, of which their Lordships had heard something the other night, had laboured with great success for the advancement of Poland, and had effected a remarkable improvement. Many of its members had visited this country and Scotland for the
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    purpose of obtaining practical information, and a very large trade in agricultural implements had thus sprung up between England and Poland. The society was not a political one, for a portion of its Council was absolutely nominated by the Government; but after the dreadful massacre referred to by the noble Earl (the Earl of Carnarvon) the other night, it offered its mediation. The offer was accepted, and it succeeded in restoring quiet, and it was actually thanked by the Government for its efforts, but the Government, jealous, as it would seem, of the great moral influence which the society had obtained in the country, had suddenly, without rhyme or reason, ordered its suppression. Thank God, however, the Government could not destroy the feelings which animated every class in the country. It had united every class from the noble to the peasant, and persons professing every form of religion from the Roman Catholic to the Jew, in one common detestation of the tyranny practised upon them. To give their Lordships an idea of the policy which the Government had adopted, he would detail to them some of the proclamations which had been issued. Not only, for example, were the keepers of inns required to give information to the police of all their guests, but persons living in the same street or neighbourhood were made responsible for the evil intentions of the travellers who might be staying at the inns. A circular which had been addressed to all the mayors and burgomasters in the country was still more absurd. It ordered that proprietors of houses and fathers of families must henceforth not allow their wives and daughters, governesses, servants, or any other women that might be in their houses, to wear mourning or to sing songs of a revolutionary tendency, on pain of being themselves subjected to immediate arrest at the hands of the police. Imagine for a moment any of their Lordships being compelled, under pain of arrest, to supervise the dress of their wives, daughters, and scullery maids. With regard to singing, it appeared that the new Roman Catholic Archbishop, on his appointment, ordered that in future there should be no singing in the churches, and this injunction had been implicitly obeyed throughout the entire of Russian Poland; but still the authorities were not satisfied, and at Wilna the Governor resented the regulation as an insult, and ordered the people to sing. They would not disobey the prior direction of the

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    Archbishop, and the Governor, therefore, hired people to sing in church. He quite agreed with the opinion expressed on a former evening by the noble Earl on the Government bench, that it was impossible for any foreign Government to judge what measures another Government ought to take for the preservation of its own tranquillity. But the noble Earl, he presumed, confined his remark to legal measures, and his complaint was that law had practically been abolished in Poland. Warsaw was in a state of siege; there was not one of its houses which was not commanded by the citadel, and its population of 160,000 inhabitants was guarded by 30,000 troops, or a soldier to each five-and-a-half individuals. Police rule prevailed, and occurrences at Naples showed what violent measures were sometimes employed by the myrmidons of the police. It was right to state that there had latterly been some slight relaxation of severity. On the 25th of February an official order to the following effect was made:—
    "The Lieutenant Governor, taking into consideration that in the four months during which the state of siege has been proclaimed public tranquillity has not been interrupted by any serious disturbance, has condescended, therefore, to decree, among other things, that, dating from this date, there shall be no arrests, no inquiry, no court-martials for crimes committed before the proclamation of the state of siege, unless in exceptional cases."
    That was the only extent to which there had been any relaxation of severity. He would, however, call the attention of their Lordships to the preamble of the order, which recited that during the four months the state of siege had continued there had been no serious disturbance. In another document it was stated that the Military Commission had not been able, with all its industry, to discover the existence of any political plots. Private accounts corroborated this remarkable statement. They represented the Russians as confounded by the unanimity of feeling throughout the length and breadth of Poland, which they attributed to the existence of some wide-spread conspiracy, forgetting that plots and mysteries need never be resorted to when the people were all of the same way of thinking. Yet he had stated to their Lordships the whole of the relaxation which had taken place in the rigorous measures which the Government had adopted. It appeared to him that this continued oppression could have but one object, and that was the provocation of revolution.
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    At all events there was great danger that it would have that effect. Should that be the consequence, the revolution would surely not be confined to Poland, but Hungary would then shake off the yoke of Austria, which she was now only prevented from doing by fear of the Russian armies. And the North of Italy would also make a struggle to be free. However much we might desire to fee this result, we did not wish to see it effected through a revolution; and therefore, though we might not be entitled to remonstrate with Russia, yet a friendly intimation to the Emperor that we considered the peace of Europe likely to be endangered by such repressive measures in Poland would, he was sure, induce the Russian Government to view more favourably the state of that unhappy country. Allusion was made the other night to the noble conduct of the Emperor of Russia with regard to the emancipation of the serfs, and he gave him every credit for it; but in a despotic country the head of the Empire was to some extent responsible for all the cruelty and oppression that took place in the Empire. Of course the Emperor could not be cognizant of all that occurred in Poland, but still some of these facts were necessarily brought under his notice. Their Lordships heard the other night of the desecration of the churches by the introduction of troops, and that numbers of persons were killed. He believed that under the Catholic religion where blood had been shed on the altar mass could not be again said in that church until it was re-consecrated. Now, the Archbishop of Warsaw, the head of the Catholic Church in Poland, was called upon to perform mass in the church which had been thus desecrated. He refused, because he could not do so according to the precepts of his religion; and that old man, who was seventy-eight years of age, was dragged to prison, confined with the lowest criminals, and after being tried by a secret tribunal was condemned to death; but— and this circumstance was material, as showing that the Emperor was cognizant of the facts—he was pardoned by ukase of the Emperor, though only on the plea of his great age and infirmities. There was another circumstance, which he mentioned only to show that any statement, however exaggerated, was likely to be believed. Their Lordships had heard of a number of women having been bayoneted by the soldiers in a church. On that occasion a number of prisoners were taken, and the

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    Viceroy, feeling this to be a harsh procedure, liberated those prisoners. The General Commandant attacked him for this conduct, and called him a coward. The consequence was a duel to death. They drew lots as to which was to die, and the General Commandant—he could not pronounce his name for it was Russian—after three attempts to shoot himself, blew out his brains. He (Lord Kinnaird) felt it his duty to put to the noble Earl at the head of the Foreign Office the question of which he had given notice with regard to Alexander Zamayski. He had no knowledge as to whether what had been asserted in regard to the treatment of that unfortunate gentleman was or was not true, but the statement which had been placed in his hands was to this effect:—The examination of M. Zamayski took place before a Court of Inquiry composed of five Russians, the two Poles who habitually formed part of the tribunal being absent. It was between the hours of ten at night and one o'clock in the morning that the interrogation, which lasted several days, took place. He was repeatedly stripped, by order of the Governor and Commissioners, and flogged until the blood flowed, and the body of the unhappy man was literally cut to pieces. Letters from Poland said that he was still alive, but it was not known what had become of him. But the statement as to the cruelties exercised on this unhappy gentleman was believed throughout the whole of Poland. If it were false, he hoped the noble Earl the Secretary for Foreign Affairs would be able to say so; but if it were true, he hoped that a friendly representation would be made by her Majesty's Government to the Government of Russia, urging it to some extent at least to relax its iron rule, and he felt sure that that representation would have the best effect.
    EARL RUSSELLsaid, that as he had addressed their Lordships only a few nights ago upon this subject, he should not now enter into the general question. With reference to the case to which his noble Friend had alluded, all he knew was that there appeared in the Gazette of Breslau the statement to which his noble Friend had referred with respect to the cruel treatment of Alexander Zamayski. Some days afterwards there appeared in the Constitutional an article dated Warsaw, stating that there was no truth in that report; that Alexander Zamayski was imprisoned, but that he had not been in
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    any way ill-treated. Which of those statements was true he knew not, as he had received no official communication on the subject; but he should certainly hope that the report would turn out unfounded.
    VISCOUNT STRATFORD DE REDCLIFFEsaid, it was impossible not to feel the inconvenience which was often occasioned to the Government in being called upon to make declarations with regard to subjects which related exclusively to foreign nations; but it was one thing for the Government to be called on to interfere and another for an assembly of that kind to entertain a question so naturally interesting. He thought that in this particular case of Poland, remembering the arrangements which were made at the Congress of Vienna, and the pledges which were then given by Russia, an exception might be made to that rule; more especially as a change appeared to have taken place in the disposition of the Poles, who seemed now to be little inclined to resort to violence. There was the better hope that any exertions which we might make on their behalf would be attended with a good result, because there was now on the throne of Russia a Sovereign who showed the best disposition and the most anxious desire to ameliorate the condition of his subjects, and whose interest and the interest of whose country it must be at a time of difficulty and trial not to excite any strong feelings of discontent or hostility on the part of so important a portion of his dominions as Poland, and this, too, at a time when the Poles themselves were becoming more disposed to accept their condition in the belief that thereby the bitterness of their lot would be mitigated.
    House adjourned at a quarter past Six o'clock, to Monday next, half-past Eleven o'clock.