Lords Sitting of 14 May 1861

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—2a Princess Alice's Annuity; Smoke Nuisance (Scotland) Act Amendment.
3a Passengers (Australian Colonies); Marriages Validity.

SPAIN AND SAN DOMINGO.

  QUESTION.
  LORD BROUGHAMwished to put a question to his noble Friend the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs relative to the proposed cession of San Domingo to the Spanish Crown. He wished to know, Whether that cession had received the sanction of the British and French Governments; and, above all, whether due precautions had been taken to prevent the possibility of the introduction of Spanish slavery—that accursed system which degraded and disgraced the Spanish Government in Cuba—into the island of San Domingo? He thought this would be a favourable opportunity to call for the repayment by Spain of that money which she received from us on the undertaking to abolish her own slave trade; her slave trade not having been abolished, she was bound to return the price paid to her, or instantly to give liberty to the captives introduced under the prohibited traffic. It was most painful to consider that at this moment there was very great chance, from circumstances to which he need not refer, of the slave trade receiving an additional impetus. Sixty years since, au dux que juventâ, he had proclaimed his opinion that there was a very great difference between abolishing the slave traffic and giving freedom to the slave. He laid it down, then, that although their first sympathy was duo to the slave, their next fellow-feeling was due to his master, who was possessed of slaves by crimes not of his own committing, they having descended to him from other persons. He repeated the same doctrine now. There were meetings being held in this country which he

  2045
  entirely deprecated—meetings which ought not to be held—meetings at one of which six or seven weeks ago he had himself promised to preside; but when, after what had taken place in the United States, he found that it was called a meeting on American slavery, he said on no account—by no means whatever—would he have anything to do with holding, presiding, or attending a meeting of that description. He strongly recommended all whom his voice might reach to abstain from holding such meetings. At the present moment it could not fail to do great mischief in our relations to America, if anything like agitation took place on a question whereupon the Americans of the South, and almost all Americans, were peculiarly sensitive and jealous; it would be the worst possible calamity, and might endanger the peace of the country without serving the slave, but rather postponing indefinitely his liberation.
  LORD WODEHOUSEwas understood to say that the Spanish Government had not yet taken any definitive resolution with regard to the cession of San Domingo to the Spanish Crown. They were awaiting further information. There was reason, however, to believe that if the offered cession met with the concurrence generally of the population the Spanish Government would accept the annexation of the Spanish part of the island. Whether that would be for the advantage of Spain or not was entirely a matter for the Spanish Government to decide; but the House would naturally feel great interest in the question which had been put by his noble and learned Friend, that slavery would not be reintroduced into the ceded territory. He was glad, therefore, to inform their Lordships that the Spanish Government had assured Her Majesty's Government that it was not their intention to allow slavery to be introduced into the eastern part of San Domingo. He might add that even if slavery were to be introduced into the eastern part of the island of San Domingo it would be exceedingly difficult to maintain it as long as the western part was free.

PRINCESS ALICE'S ANNUITY BILL.

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  EARL GRANVILLE, in moving the second reading of the Bill, said it was to make a provision for the Princess Alice on
  2046
  her approaching marriage. The provision was of a most reasonable character, and he had no doubt their Lordships would, out of feelings of regard to Her Majesty and for the dignity of the Crown, willingly agree to the second reading. A short time since they approved of a Bill of a similar character, granting to the Princess Royal £40,000 dowry and an annuity of £8,000 for her life. In the present Bill it was proposed to grant her younger sister an immediate dowry of £30,000, and an annuity of £6,000 for her life.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly; Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a on Thursday next.

LEASES, &c. BY INCUMBENTS RESTRICTION BILL.

  THIRD READING PUT OFF.
  Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
  THE BISHOP OF OXFORDsaid, he was entirely in favour of the change proposed by the Bill. But he wished to observe that upon a representation that the measure would materially injure the families affected by it clauses had been introduced by the noble Lord; but he could not find that they would in any way touch the difficulties pointed out. There were certain livings the incumbent of which obtained the income upon which he lived by granting, say, at the expiration of every seven years, a lease of the property of the benefice—he received in fact the seven years' income in a lump. It was desired now that this system should be changed, and instead of letting the properly upon these leases the clergyman should receive an annual rent-charge. This he admitted was a very desirable change to make; but it did not appear to him to be just either to the parish in which the property happened to be situated or to the incumbent, that the proposed change should be made, without making some provision to bridge over the interval of fourteen years during which, under the operation of the Bill, the revenue of the parish would be suspended. He wished for some explanation as to the manner in which this difficulty was to be met.
  LORD LYTTELTONmade a statement which was inaudible.
  THE BISHOP OF LONDONrecommended that the third reading of the Bill should be postponed until its precise effect could be ascertained.
  LORD LYTTELTONassented to this proposal.
  Third Reading put off to Friday the 31st instant.

COMMON LAW COURTS (IRELAND).

  MOTION FOR RETURNS.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE, in moving for returns respecting the Salaries, Retiring Allowances and Business of the Common Law Courts of Ireland, said, that similar returns had already been ordered in the other House of Parliament, and, therefore, he did not contemplate any objection would be made to the papers for which he asked being laid on their Lordship's table. He should, therefore, not have said a word in bringing forward his Motion, but that he had ascertained it had been insinuated elsewhere that he was actuated by personal motives in the course which he was taking. No precise charge, indeed, had been made against him, and even if such had been the case, he thought he could show their Lordships that he was proceeding on public grounds alone. Leaving, therefore, personal considerations out of the question, he should, with the permission of the House, advert to that which was more important—the circumstance that an attempt had been made to stifle discussion on the question to which he was about to draw attention by asserting that Ireland justice was cheap and easy. He was, he might add, sorry to perceive that it had been stated by his right hon. Friend the Secretary for Ireland, in dealing with that question, that legal reforms were costly, while a right hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Whiteside), speaking on the same subject, remarked that he no sooner heard such reforms mentioned than he asked himself, "Who wants a place?" He was sorry that any such feeling was entertained, but he thought it ought not to be entertained, because the right hon. Gentleman himself in 1859 brought forward a Bill affecting judgments in Ireland, and that Bill contemplated the constitution of a new place with the abolition of four or five others. He, however, had made no insinuation about motives, but only stated that the public interest required investigation, either by a Committee or through a Commission, but he preferred the former as the cheaper and more expeditious mode of proceeding, believing that the matter could be disposed of by a Select Committee in the course of
  2048
  six or seven days. Let their Lordships compare the judicial establishments of England with those of Ireland. He might state without fear of error that the population of England exceeded 16,000,000, and the amount of property on which the income tax was levied was £246,000,000. In Ireland the population now exceeded 6,000,000, and the property on which the income tax was levied amounted to £22,000,000. But what was the ease with respect to the judicial establishments? England had nine superior equity Judges and fifteen common law Judges. Ireland had ten superior equity Judges and twelve common law Judges. When the amount of property not taxed to the income tax and the infinite variety of incidents which led to law proceedings in England were considered, the disparity was still greater. He understood that it had been said in "another place" that the law business in Ireland was increasing; but he could produce figures to show that the law business was happily decreasing, while the expense of the law courts unhappily was increasing. It appeared by returns he moved for a few months ago, that, taking the two periods of 1851 and 1860, there had been an increase of expense in the latter period in respect to the three superior common law courts in Dublin amounting to £4,432, while the decrease of judgments entered was 4,280, or more than one-half. He thought that this was a matter which called for inquiry. The business of the law courts of Ireland was decreasing, so much so that they complained they had not wherewithal to employ them. The last term ended on Wednesday. The Queen's Bench had finished all the after-term business on Saturday. The after-term business in the Court of Exchequer consisted of three cases, of which one was settled, one was referred to arbitration, and the Judges said of the third that it ought to have been brought into a Quarter Sessions Court. The business in the Landed Estates Court had greatly diminished. For the first three years—1852, 1853, and 1854—there were 1,305 cases in the court. During the last two years and a half the number of cases, instead of being five-sixths of the above, was only 416. Another misfortune and injury to the public arose from the little attention which had been paid to the cause of law reform in Ireland. No one could doubt that it was a sound policy on the part of this country as far as possible to assimilate

  2049
  the law and practice of the two countries. If a Committee were appointed to sit on the question it would soon appear how much tendency there had been of late to divergence in the legislation of England and Ireland. The noble Marquess concluded by moving for Returns of Salaries and Compensation to Officers of the said Courts, of Plaints, Rules and Posteas; of References to the Masters, and of Incidental Expenses.
  Motion agreed to. Returns ordered to be laid before the House.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, to Thursday next, a quarter before Five o'clock.