HL Deb 02 May 1861 vol 162 cc1361-4
THE EARL OF DERBY

presented petitions of Roman Catholics, Edinburgh; and of John Campbell, Advocate of Edinburgh; against Inequality of Treatment of Pro- testants and Roman Catholics, and for Provision of Education of Roman Catholic Children. The noble Earl said he wished to draw their Lordship's attention to these petitions, one of which was signed by 787 Roman Catholics, ratepayers of the city of Edinburgh, the other by a Roman Catholic gentleman who had for two years been a member of the Parochial Board in that city. Their complaint was, in general terms, that under the present administration of the Poor Law in Scotland adequate provision was not afforded for the instruction of Roman Catholic children in the tenets of their religion, and they named, in particular, that the Roman Catholic pauper children were boarded out in the houses of Protestants, where, of course, any instruction of these children in their own religious creed was impossible; and they prayed their Lordships to cause an inquiry to be made into the matter, and to make such alterations in the provisions of the law as that Roman Catholic adults might be appointed to have the care of pauper children of Roman Catholic parents, and that such children might receive an education in conformity with the Roman Catholic form of worship. For the accuracy of the statements which the petitioners put forward, he, of course, did not hold himself responsible; but he at the same time thought it was incumbent upon the Government to take care that the people of this country, who so much reprobated the conduct of Roman Catholics in such cases, for instance, as that of the boy Mortara, should not be rendered liable to the charge of unduly interfering with the exercise of the religious principles of their Roman Catholic fellow-subjects. Entertaining these sentiments, he had deemed it to be his duty to place copies of the petitions which he had presented in the hands of the noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Argyll) in order that be might institute inquiries into the truth of the allegations which they contained. He wished to ascertain from the noble Duke whether he had received any information on the subject?

The MARQUESS of NORMANBY and the MARQUESS of BRISTOL

presented similar petitions from Birmingham, Manchester, Bury St. Edmund's, and St. Mario's, Middleton Lodge.

THE DUKE OF ARGYLL

said, that the noble Earl having directed his attention to the allegations of these petitions some days ago, he had caused inquiries to be made, and he could not do better than to read to their Lordships some extracts from the Poor Law regulations which had been sent to him by Sir John M'Neill, who was at the head of the Board of Supervision in Scotland. From the first of these rules it appeared that the adult inmates of poor houses in that country were required, unless they were incapacitated by illness, to attend morning and evening prayer daily, and Divine service on the Sabbath. It was provided, however, that those inmates who objected to attend on the ground of their religious tenets should be exempted from the rule. By another rule it was provided that any inmate should be allowed to receive the visits of a minister of his own faith, for the purpose of religious instruction, and for the education of his children. Orders were also directed to be given by the governor of the poor house to permit opportunities to Roman Catholic clergymen of making visits to the house, and to regulate the hours of instruction for adults and their children. These rules, it would be admitted, were very excellent, provided they were attended to. Another rule permitted paupers under certain regulations to visit places of worship in the town. The other question with regard to the education of pauper children was more important. The petitioner was, he believed, a Mr. Campbell, who had recently become a convert to the Roman Catholic religion, and who had interested himself greatly in the welfare of the poor. With regard to these children, Sir John M'Neill said that great advantages had been found to arise from the practice of boarding out poor children amongst the neighbouring peasants, one, two, or three to each family. They were thus brought up to cherish feelings of independence, and rarely relapsed into pauperism; whereas the result of retaining children in the poor house was that they looked upon pauperism as their natural condition, and came back constantly upon the parish. But in Scotland it was not always possible to find suitable Roman Catholic families amongst whom to board children of Roman Catholic parents; and it, therefore, no doubt, had sometimes happened that Roman Catholic children had been boarded with Protestant families. Still this was avoided whenever it was possible, and the Board were extremely anxious to provide properly for the education of children in the religion of their parents. Each child was registered as being of the religious persuasion of its parents, and the natural and legal right of that child to re- ceive education in the same form of religion was distinctly recognized. He did not believe there was any necessity for any change in the law, or for any alteration in the construction of the Poor Law Board in Scotland as at present constituted. All who knew Sir John M'Neill, who had performed so many important public services, would feel quite sure that he would endeavour to enforce the rules of the Board, which met the exigencies of all these cases, without the smallest bias from sectarian feeling.

THE EARL OF WICKLOW

said, he knew nothing of the grounds of complaint in Scotland, but regretted that the noble Duke had confined his explanation to that country, for he knew that in England the boards of guardians would not give Roman Catholic clergymen permission for visiting in the workhouse paupers of his own flock. In Essex especially was this the case, and the consequence was that they were obliged to take for their children the religious education there given, or go without education altogether. This matter was one which required some alteration.

EARL GRANVILLE

said, he understood that a Select Committee of the House of Commons was at present engaged with the consideration of this very question, and probably action would be soon taken upon the Report.

Petitions ordered to lie on the Table.