Lords Sitting of 22 March 1861

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILL.—3a Charitable Uses.
Royal Assent. —Consolidated Fund (£4,000,000); Inclosure; Red Sea and India Telegraph; Bank of England Payments.

INDIA—FINANCIAL AFFAIRS.

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHwished to inquire of the noble Earl the Under-Secretary of State for India whether there was any objection to lay upon the table the last despatch received by the Government having reference to the financial affairs of India
  EARL DE GREY AND RIPONsaid, he did not think it would be desirable to lay the last financial despatch received from the Government of India upon the table unaccompanied by the letters connected with it; but the whole of the Correspondence would be produced as soon as the
  202
  Government were in a position to lay it upon their Lordships' table.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHinquired whether the subject of railways would be comprised in the documents which the noble Earl intended to produce
  EARL DE GREY AND RIPONsaid, that full information as to the state of the railways, financially and otherwise, would be found in the Annual Report which he hoped to be able to lay on the table in the course of about a fortnight.
  LORD MONTEAGLEentered his protest against the neglect of the Government in not producing to Parliament the Annual Reports on the financial condition of India, which they were legally bound to furnish. This was no light matter, and every day it became more dangerous that the people of this country should be kept in ignorance of what was going on in India. If after the recess there was not something said or done to account for the refusal to carry into effect the law of the land on this subject, he should, probably, take the liberty of moving an Address to the Crown on the subject.

SYRIA—THE FRENCH OCCUPATION.

  QUESTION.
  VISCOUNT STRATFORD DE REDCLIPPEobserved, that a few weeks ago he had addressed an inquiry to the noble Lord the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs which he was not at that time prepared to answer, having had reference to what were the intentions of the Government relative to the events that had taken place in Syria. His noble Friend was kind enough to say that his only objection to placing papers upon the table arose from the continuance of negotiations at Paris on the subject. He (Viscount Stratford de Redcliffe) had since, in common with their Lordships, heard that the Conference had met, had terminated its deliberations, and that after a reference to the courts from which it received its powers, a decision had been taken on a point of paramount importance—namely, the period of the continued occupation of Syria by the French troops. Not only was it believed that that decision had taken place, but in addition to that circumstance it was understood by the public that the decision was not favourable to the wishes of this country, not favourable to the wishes of Her Majesty's Government, and one which could not be agreeable to the Turkish Go-

  203
  vernment, inasmuch as—however much they might have reconciled themselves to the French view—it implied that the state of Syria was still such as to justify and require a continued occupation by foreign troops. But at the same time their Lordships could hardly fail to perceive that, while Parliament was sitting it was desirable that on a subject of such importance, an opportunity should be afforded for both branches of the Legislature to know what course the Government was pursuing, and delivering, if necessary, their opinion upon a matter involving such great and important considerations. It was evident that if the French troops had been allowed, under the particular circumstances, to continue the occupation, there must be very strong reasons for consenting to such means of restoring the tranquillity of the country, and it would be doing injustice to Her Majesty's Government to suppose that such reasons did not exist. He confessed that he, for one, should take great interest in ascertaining, on the authority of Her Majesty's Government, that they had a certain prospect, even though a distant one, that the continuance of the occupation would not be again prolonged, and that meantime effective measures would be taken for preventing the recurrence of such atrocities as those of last year. He, therefore, took the liberty of asking his noble Friend, "Whether it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to lay any papers connected with that Conference on the table of the House before Easter, or if that could not be done, at least he hoped that an assurance might be given that during the Easter recess they would be presented to Parliament? He thought it would be very desirable to afford Parliament that amount of information which would enable them to take the case into consideration on an early day after Easter. Though he had every confidence in the Government, he felt bound to say that the subject demanded serious and immediate attention.
  LORD WODEHOUSEsaid, it was quite true, as stated by the noble Lord, that the Conference at Paris had terminated its labours, and that it had been agreed that the occupation of Syria by the French troops should be continued until June 5, when the whole of the foreign troops were to evacuate that country. On the first day when the House met after the Easter recess papers on the subject would be laid upon their Lordships' table.

DENMARK AND HOLSTEIN.

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OP ELLENBOROUGHasked the noble Lord the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether any official information had been received confirmatory of the telegram which arrived on Tuesday, declaring that the Committee appointed on behalf of the States of Holstein had refused both the propositions made by the King of Denmark, and had instructed the President to lay the matter before the Diet
  LORD WODEHOUSEsaid, the latest official information received by the Government was to the effect stated by the noble Lord. A discussion was still going on in the States, but it was understood that the Report of the Committee, which advised the rejection of the propositions of the King of Denmark, would be adopted. The noble Lord concluded with a reference to the time which should elapse before the resolves of the Diet could be carried into execution, the precise terms of which were inaudible.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHapprehended that the person standing behind could pull the strings and make the puppets move quickly or slowly, as he pleased.

  THE SUITORS' FUND, COURT OF CHANCERY.—QUESTION.
  LORD ST. LEONARDSwished to obtain from the Government some information relative to the measures which would be taken by the Government in reference to the Suitors' Fund in the Court of Chancery, as he gathered from statements made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that legislation on the subject was in contemplation. According to the old rule, in the Court of Chancery all the funds directed by that Court to be invested were placed in the Three per Cents, because these were national funds. There were very few of their Lordships, or Members of the other House, who were not deeply interested in the safe keeping of these funds, and there were thousands of people out of doors who had a similar interest in their being safely placed. The noble and learned Lord then entered upon an examination of the several grounds upon which he understood the Government to propose to appropriate to purposes not required for the benefit of the suitors upwards of £1,400,000 of their funds.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, that the noble and learned Lord had evidently directed his criticisms against a speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer made in "another place." He must protest against the assumption that Government had any scheme in contemplation which they had not the manliness to avow. He was glad the noble and learned Lord had called attention to the subject, and he would assure him that it should not be neglected by the Government.
  After a few words from Lord ST. LEONARDS,
  LOED DENMANsaid, he wished public attention to be directed to the Report of the Commissioners for the Consolidation of the Superior Courts of Law and Equity, and the subject of it to be fully understood. It certainly appeared by the evidence that more than one Chancellor of the Exchequer had cast a longing eye on the Suitors' Fee Fund—and the recommendation of the Commissioners to appropriate the fund was so strong, that without an appropriation of it, the scheme must fall to the ground. He thought that the Commissioners should have published Mr. Harvey Gem's ground plan, by which only a small part of Lincoln's Inn Fields would be required for the building of courts. The witnesses examined were twenty-eight in number, and of these, he believed, fourteen were solicitors with very one-sided views—this might account for the choice of the site abutting upon Bell Alley; amongst them also there was a wish to conduct business with the aid of fewer clerks, but he could recollect that his late father spoke with admiration and pleasure of the manner in which managing clerks and young men who afterwards entered upon business for themselves conducted the cases before him at Chambers. The inconveniences of the Courts at Westminster had been greatly exaggerated, and even a noble Friend of his, one of the Commissioners (Lord Wynford), who had totally dissented from the scheme, and had not signed the Report should not have believed that the dark passages were the only places for witnesses in attendance on the Court of Queen's Bench, because the seats behind the counsel and the galleries ought principally to be appropriated to the witnesses in waiting. The Commissioners had recommended that the Courts at Guildhall, the Old Bailey, and Basinghall Street should be retained; and, while they advocated a scheme of which they could not foresee
  206
  the disadvantages, they ought also to retain the Common Law Courts at Westminster Hall. The evidence of Sir John Stuart deserved consideration; and it ought not to be forgotten that Sir John Romilly and Sir William Page Wood were opposed to the application of the Suitors' Fee Fund to the scheme. It must not be assumed that because the Earl of Derby had allowed the Commission to issue that, therefore, he would have adopted the Report which had received the support of the present Government.
  The subject dropped.

  MEXICAN BONDS.—QUESTION.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEasked, the noble Lord the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether he would state to the House the Terms or the purport of the Convention concluded some time since at Vera Cruz with the Government of Mexico, providing for the appropriation of certain Customs Revenues of that Country, to meet the Demands of British holders of Mexican Bonds? He was not about to enter into a history of the complication which had surrounded the Mexican Bonds or the financial condition of Mexico for some years past. Their Lordships were aware that soon after the formation of Mexico as a separate Government, that country found it necessary, as most Governments, whether old or new, did, to borrow money. British capitalists, large and small, embarked in these loans. However, it appeared that the Mexican Government was not as punctual as might have been desired in the payment of the interest. Ten or more years ago an agent proceeded to that country on the part of the bondholders, and concluded an arrangement by which it was promised that a certain proportion of the revenue arising, from the customs dues of the ports of Vera Cruz and Tampico should be appropriated for the liquidation of the Mexican debt; but in consequence of the civil wars and commotions in that country of late years there had been an irregularity in carrying out that arrangement. There had been two parties striving for the Government of the country, the one under Miramon, and the other under Juarez. The latter party was now the established and governing Power, and they had entered into a convention with the British officers, by which they bound themselves

  207
  to allot these revenues to the payment of the dividends on the Mexican Bonds. The party of Miramon pursued a different course. They committed burglary, and robbed the British Consulate of funds lodged there for transmission to this country. A question upon the subject was lately asked of the noble Lord the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. His answer was not very clearly understood, and the parties concerned wished to know more clearly than they did what was their position; what engagements the Mexican Government had really entered into with the British Government; what were the views of Her Majesty's Government with regard to the Convention, and how far they could hold out expectations that it would be duly observed
  LORD WODEHOUSEwas understood to say that the account which the noble Marquess had given of the Convention which had been entered into between Captain Dunlop and Captain Aldham and the Constitutional Government of Mexico, presided over by Juarez, was in most respects correct. This debt was contracted many years ago; and besides this debt there were certain claims known as conventional claims—claims settled by convention between the British Government and the Government of Mexico-—whereby an assignment was made by the latter Government of certain customs revenues to meet them. Owing to the state into which Mexico had been plunged this engagement had not been punctually fulfilled, and Captain Dunlop, in the year 1859, concluded an agreement providing for the more punctual payment of those claims. That agreement was that 25 per cent of the customs' duties accruing at Tampico and at Vera Cruz should be paid to the bondholders, and 16 per cent on account of the Convention claims. That agreement was observed for some time; but in the following year, in consequence of the continuance of the disturbed state of Mexico, the payments were interrupted. Captain Aldham, who had succeeded Captain Dunlop, then remonstrated with the Mexican Government, and the result was a fresh agreement, whereby the stipulated payments were resumed by President Juarez, from the 1st of January last, with an addition of 10 per cent to meet the arrears which had accrued. Both Captain Dunlop and Captain Aldham deserved great credit for the manner in which they had conducted the negotiations with the
  208
  Mexican Government. With regard to the robbery by the late Mexican Government of the property of the bondholders, and which amounted to 660,000 Mexican dollars, he would observe that that Government, which represented the church party, and the head of which was Miramon, had been upset. The present and Constitutional Government, presided over by President Juarez, had been pressed by the British Consul to restore this money, and by the last accounts he was using every possible effort to effect the restitution. But, however well disposed the Constitutional Government might be—and he thought that they were well disposed—to satisfy the just claims made upon them, they might not be able immediately to produce 660,000 dollars. Of course they were not at all relieved from the obligation, but it was possible that some delay would take place. However that might be, the Government had sent out instructions to insist in the strongest manner upon the restitution of the money. They would continue to insist upon it; and he hoped that their efforts would be attended with success, for a more flagrant case of robbery could not be imagined. There was also a further sum of 400,000 dollars which had been abstracted by a Constitutional General—Degollado—the immediate restitution of which the Government had also claimed. Sir Charles "Wyke would proceed out by the next mail, and his instructions were to take every possible step to obtain satisfaction for all these claims, and, by some general arrangement, to place them all on a better footing. In a short time he should be able to lay on the table papers which would show the nature of the agreement entered into between the Mexican Government and the British Captains Aldham and Dunlop.
  House adjourned at a quarter past Six o'clock, to Tuesday, the 9th of April next, half-past Four o'clock.