THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE— who had given Notice of Motion for Copies of any Correspondence between the Secretary of State for India and his Excellency the Governor General or the Governors of the Presidencies of Bombay or Madras relating to an Alteration in the Legislative Council of India: Also, Copies of any Minutes of the Council of India in this country, or of any Committee of the Council, upon the same subject: and to ask if Her Majesty's Government are about to propose to Parliament any Legislation thereupon—said, that in consequence of an Answer which had been given on this subject recently in "another place" it became unnecessary for him to ask the Question of which he had given notice, but he still considered it was necessary to move for the Correspondence. The Secretary of State for India, when he was asked a question on this subject last Session, said that he was then in correspondence with the Governor General of India on the subject, and he did not wish to give a premature opinion upon it; but in answer to a question put again on Friday last, the right hon. Gentleman stated that he had that day received all the information on the subject and all the assistance which could be expected to be received from India; and, therefore, he should lose no time in introducing a Bill into Parliament. Now he (the Marquess of Clanricarde) understood that papers of importance having been received, and having been referred to publicly by the Minister, their Lordships ought to be put in possession of them. He did not blame Sir Charles Wood for any delay which had taken place on this subject, because it was absolutely necessary to obtain all the information he possibly could before proceeding to legislate. The subject was, indeed, one of vast importance, upon which the Government ought to have all the assistance that Parliament could give it; but before Parliament could be in a position to afford such assistance it was necessary that it should be in possession of all the information. At the time the 1685 Legislative Council was formed in 1853, Sir Charles Wood, who was then, as now, Minister for India, stated that he anticipated the result of its formation would be to introduce into India an improved spirit of legislation, with which it was probable that all who went out from this country would be thoroughly imbued. So far was this anticipation from being realized that when, about three years ago, a Bill for improving the criminal procedure of India was sent out from this country, the learned Gentlemen, Members of the Legislative Council who had been bred up in the English law, actually proposed that from the jurisdiction of the courts of justice, to which all other men, European or Native, were to he subjected, one class, and one only should be exempted, and that that class should be the civil servants of the Government. So monstrous a proposal was not to be found in the annals of any despotism which ever existed. To suppose that English capitalists and men of position in India would submit to the provisions of a stringent law, from such a mere boy fresh from college, who had just got an Indian appointment, was exempt, was most absurd. Another reason for immediately considering this question was, that various members of the Council were agitating for enlarged powers of discussion. There were two points on which he hoped their Lordships would bestow especial attention before they legislated on the subject. One was whether it was possible for a single Council at Calcutta to legislate properly for the whole of a vast territory like India. The other was whether non-official Europeans and Natives ought not to be represented in the Legislature. He held that there was at present too much centralization in the administration of India, and that an infusion of local knowledge and sympathies was required. He approved the recommendation of the Select Committee of 1859, that a number of non-official Europeans and Natives ought to be introduced into the Legislative Council. He was satisfied that to retain our Empire in India we must throw open situations of a higher class to the Natives, and strengthen ourselves by their counsel and assistance. The present Governor General had already acted upon this principle with excellent results. These were subjects with which Parliament and the Government must speedily have to deal, and they ought to be put in possession at the earliest possible moment of all the information that 1686 could throw any useful light upon them. Under these circumstances he begged leave to move an Address for the papers set forth in his Notice.
EARL DE GREY AND RIPONsaid, it was sufficient to reflect that the subject of the Motion involved the question of legislation for our vast Indian empire to be convinced that it required the most serious consideration. The noble Marquess appeared to be acquainted with the course which the Secretary of State for India intended to take, and to be aware that the right hon. Baronet had stated in "another place" that he hoped to he in a position in the course of the present Session to fulfil the expectations which he held out last year, of introducing a Bill upon the subject. He thought it would not be proper for him, under these circumstances, to enter into the details of a question upon which the views of the Government would be made known to Parliament when that measure was introduced. To a certain extent it was true that his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State was in possession of information which he had sought from the Governor General of India, and other persons well qualified to judge of the matter; but the complete series of papers containing that full information which his right hon. Friend wished to have before proposing to legislate had not reached this country, although he hoped it would arrive within a very short period. Some of the papers of which the Government were in possession only came to them on Friday last; and he thought the noble Marquess precipitate in asking on Monday to have them laid upon the table of the House. He hoped, therefore the noble Marquess would not at that moment press his Motion. With regard to the admission of non-official Europeans and Natives to the Legislative Council, it was a subject of great difficulty and importance, and it was one to which the Government would give the most careful consideration; but he could not enter into any details anticipatory of a measure which it might be hereafter the duty of Government to submit to the House. With regard to the Natives, however, he was confident that the conciliatory treatment extended to them would be one of the highest claims to honour of the present Governor General. Lord Canning, with the full approval of the Secretary of State and of Her Majesty's Government, had inaugurated a course of action towards the Native Princes and Native gentlemen of India 1687 which would form a new era in the history of that country, and develope in those who were the objects of his policy the greatest feeling of gratitude and loyalty. There was no wish on the part of the Government to conceal from Parliament any information which would assist them in arriving at a just conclusion upon this important and difficult question; and before the Bill to which he had referred was presented to Parliament, the fullest information would be laid on the table of both Houses. The Reports of the Committees of the Indian Council moved for by the noble Marquess partook of the character of office minutes in other departments, and were not intended to be laid before Parliament; and as to the other papers he hoped his noble Friend would not press his Motion under the circumstances to which he had adverted.
§ THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, he thought the noble Earl was quite justified in declining to produce the papers moved for at the present moment, more especially as it appeared that other papers were expected, which he believed would arrive shortly, and which it would be necessary for Her Majesty's Government to take into their consideration before coming to any decision. The information, however, afforded by the noble Earl filled him with alarm, for he could foresee clearly that the Bill, if introduced at all, would come into the House of Commons at a late period of the Session, would be postponed from day to day, and would reach their Lordships at a time when there would be an assemblage, probably, not much more numerous than the Legislative Council itself, which, though nominally consisting of twelve Members, seldom mustered much more than seven. He had felt this inconvenience last year in contending against what appeared to be the general opinion of the country, and certainly of the House of Commons, on a question of great importance, when he was really ashamed to divide the House for fear of showing to the public how small a number of Peers took an interest in the matter. Tins Bill was, if possible, of still greater importance, for the Bill was really one to give a Constitution to the great empire of India. He trusted, therefore, that an effort would be made to bring it forward as early as possible.
§ LORD LYVEDENhoped the Under Secretary for India would give a more definite answer to the House when the Bill was to be introduced. It was not a measure 1688 which need be postponed for the purpose of obtaining the additional information referred to by the noble Earl. The questions to be decided were questions of theory and principle, and all the information requisite to enable them to come to a decision was already before them in the Reports of the Committees of 1813, 1833, and 1852. This Legislative Council, he believed, had been condemned by every one, and all they had to consider, therefore, was, whether they would return to the old system, or whether there was any new scheme which could be proposed. It was a sort of ad captan-dum proposition introduced into the Bill of 1853, and since its establishment it had been the cause of much impediment in the government of India. No doubt there were many papers, such as those containing the opinions of various persons of high authority on Indian matters, which might be produced; but he hoped the Secretary for India would make up his mind to bring in the Bill directly after Easter, especially if it had to be submitted to his Council; for, knowing the lengthy habits of these gentlemen in writing, and considering everything, he despaired of any Bill becoming law this Session.
§ THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, it should also be remembered, seeing the length to which these Indian authorities indulged in writing, that these papers would be of a tremendous length.
THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEexpressed his willingness, after the explanation of the noble Earl, to withdraw his Motion.
§ Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.