HL Deb 21 June 1861 vol 163 cc1391-407
LORD MONTEAGLE

rose to present a Petition from certain British subjects—Parsees—Natives of India, complaining of their exclusion from the competitive examination required for appointments to office. He would also move for all Official Correspondence relating to their case. He said, the question he felt it his duty to bring under their Lordships' notice, not only stated a grievance of which the petitioners had the justest right to complain, but involved the still more important question of the obligations the Legislature of the United Kingdom had contracted in reference to British subjects in India, and of those obligations the Crown had more recently assumed on the transfer to the Sovereign, of the Government of the Indian Empire. This question included the civil rights and privileges of the Natives of India, and their eligibility to all official appointments under the Government. He did not wish to state the case of the petitioners without assuring the House that he brought it forward without any wish to express any reproach or imply any mistrust of the conduct of the present Governor General; he wished to speak of the conduct of Lord Canning, from his arrival in India to the present time, with all the respect that was so justly due to him, and more especially for the justice and sympathy he had manifested for the Natives. The Act of Parliament to which he first wished to call attention was that of 1833—the Charter Act of 1833 (3 & 4 Will. IV. c. 85)—the 87th Clause of which statute enacted, that No Native of India nor any natural-born subject of Great Britain, nor any natural-born subject resident therein, should, by reason only of his religion, place of birth, or colour, be disabled from holding place, office, or appointment under the East India Company. The words of that clause had his entire concurrence. They were comprehensive; admitting of no doubt or exception. But he grieved to say that there was conclusive evidence to prove that, in practice by the construction given to the words he had read, they had been made subject to the most narrow and ungenerous limitation. What was the just meaning of the clause, and the intention of Parliament he would prove by referring to the authority of the statesmen by whom this Bill was prepared, or supported. At that time Mr. Charles Grant, now Lord Glenelg, was President of the Board of Control; Mr. Charles W. Wynn had been Jus predecessor; Lord Macaulay filled the office of Secretary for India; the Duke of Wellington, a great authority on all subjects, but especially on Indian affairs, was in the maturity of his power; the Marquess of Lansdowne had undertaken the charge of the India Bill, representing in this duty, the Government of the late Earl Grey. Those Statesmen all expressed their high approval of the 87th Clause, or, of the principle on which, it rested. That clause had not been carelessly framed, or, surreptitiously introduced. It was carried unanimously, its object and its consequences having been first pointed out, and the special approval of Parliament, justly claimed and given to its authors and their supporters. Mr. Wynn, who had at that time quitted Earl Grey's Government, stated on the 10th of July— It is with great pleasure I have heard a declaration that all Natives of India, without regard to colour, descent, or religion, should be eligible to every office under the Government which their education might qualify them to fill." He went still further, declaring emphatically "That the only principle on which India could be justly or wisely administered was that of admitting the Natives to a participation in the Government, and allowing them to hold every office, the duties of which they were competent to discharge. Lord Macaulay, on the same day, in one of the most powerful and finished of his orations, described the 87th Clause as "wise, benevolent, and noble, enacting that no Native of our Indian Empire shall, by reason of his descent, colour or religion, be incapable of holding office. To the last day of my life," he added, "I shall be proud of having been one of those who assisted in the framing of the Bill which contains that clause." He concluded by asking, "Do we think that we can give knowledge without awakening ambition; and do we mean to awaken ambition and to give it no legitimate vent?" The Duke of Wellington was somewhat more guarded, but without differing in principle. His words were— If there was one point on which all parties had agreed—and he made this assertion from a perusal of the evidence taken before the Committees which sat in both Houses—it was that the Natives of India should, as much as possible, be employed in the revenue and judicial establishments of the country. That point was again and again impressed on the attention of Ministers in the evidence of the last Session. The organ of Earl Grey's Government, the Marquess of Lansdowne, was still more explicit in his statement of the facts, and in his exposition of the Bill, of which he moved the second reading— It was part of the new system which he had to propose, that to every office in India, every Native of whatever caste, sect, or religion, should be by law equally admissible; and he hoped the Government would seriously endeavour to give the fullest effect to this arrangement, which would be as beneficial to the people themselves as it would be advantageous to the economical reforms which were now in progress in different parts of India. The Natives," he continued, "are alive to the grievance of being excluded from a larger share in the Executive Government. They are at present only employed in subordinate situations in the revenue, judicial, and military departments. It is amply borne out by the evidence that such exclusion is not warranted on the score of incapacity for business, want of application, or of trustworthiness; while it is contended that their admission, under European control, into the higher offices would strengthen their attachment to British connection, and would conduce to the better administration of justice. This evidence is conclusive with respect to the intentions of the framers of the Charter Act of 1833, and gives an unimpeachable commentary on the true meaning of that statute. The fundamental principle on which it rests never had a more decided support than from a noble Earl (the Earl of Ellenborough) now in the House, and whose high abilities and eloquence have never been more brilliantly employed than upon Indian affairs in assisting and guiding the deliberations of Parliament. He observed in 1830, that Among the means of reducing expenditure was the very desirable one of reducing gradually the number of Europeans employed, and of bringing forward, though gradually and with extreme caution, the most deserving Natives by employing them in situations of higher authority and trust than they bad hitherto been accustomed to fill. The next period to which he would refer was 1853, when the renewal of the Charter again toot place. While this latter Bill was in progress through the other House he (Lord Monteagle) inquired, perhaps somewhat Drematurely, of his noble Friend (Earl Granville) whether the principle of competition for the civil service would be extended to Natives of India. The conversation which took place in the House of Lords on the 13th June (Hansard's Debates, vol. cxxviii. p. 48) was irresistible in showing that the declarations made by the Government of Earl Grey in 1833 were repeated, adopted, and strengthened by their successors in the Cabinet of the Earl of Aberdeen twenty years subsequently; and of that Cabinet the leading persons in the present Administration were members. On that occasion he (Lord Monteagle) raised the discussion as follows:— Lord Monteagle: The question which he wished to ask the Government was this, Whether the principle of competition proposed to be applied to the Civil Service would be extended to Natives of India as well as to European-born subjects of the Crown? Supposing the case of a Native medical student, being the Queen's subject, born at Calcutta, would he be admitted to the free competition for a medical appointment, in the same manner as if he were European born? Earl Granville, in answer, had not the slightest hesitation in saying that, if Natives of India arrived here competent to pass the required examination, they would gain the appointment awarded, in free competition, the same as if they had been born in Europe. Lord Monteagle stated that he received this reply with the greatest delight—Jess from any largo immediate consequence to which it would lead, than from the all-important results which it must produce, in carrying out eventually the full meaning of the 87th Clause of the last Charter Act and the intention of its framers. It had been stated by Lord Lansdowne in 1833 that there should be an entire equality among all the subjects of the Queen, whatever their colour or their religion. He considered the reply now given by the Government, through Earl Granville, to be a fulfilment of this engagement. It would be the entire destruction of the monopoly of what was called the covenanted service as now understood. He was mistaken if there had not been, with respect to these covenanted appointments, a violation of the law of 1833 as it had passed. The Marquess of Clanricarde desired to express his great satisfaction at the statement of Earl Granville that the Natives of India would hereafter be eligible for the highest civil appointments. That certainly was a great step. The Earl of Albemarle: A great stress has been laid on that portion of the Government plan which laid the higher departments of the civil service of India open to the Natives of the country; but so long as their admission to this competition depended merely on a single clause in an Act of Parliament, which was liable to be set aside or disavowed by subordinate authority, he, for one, must be allowed to state that his objections would remain as strong as ever."—Hansard cxxviii. pp. 48, 66. Upon moving the second reading of the Bill in that House, August 5th, the noble Earl (Earl Granville), who had charge of the India Bill, said he was bound to admit that the intentions of the Legislature had not, up to that time, been carried out, and that the Natives of India were not employed to the extent which he should wish them to be employed, but that the Bill he then proposed would give a free entry for Natives of India into the covenanted services. Again, on the 8th and 12th of August, the same subject was resumed, and an explanation was given by Earl Granville, pointing out the reason why the exclusion of Natives from the covenanted service had been, hitherto enforced, but why Parliament might confidently expect that such exclusion would cease on the passing of the Bill then before the House. He (Lord Monteagle) then adverted to the circumstance that,— Notwithstanding the 87th Clause introduced into the Act of 1833, renewing the Company's Charter, and declaring the eligibility of Natives to the covenanted service, not one had ever been admitted; recommended a clause, declaring that no natural-born subject of Her Majesty should, by reason of colour, Of religion, or place of birth, be incapable of holding office and employment under the Company, whether in the covenanted or uncovenanted service. If this clause should not be inserted in the Bill, the Company might treat the wishes and intentions of the Government in this respect as mere moonshine. He begged to give notice that he would bring up this clause on the third reading, in order that his proposal might stand recorded in the Journals. Earl Granville observed, that the aptitude of Natives for certain departments of the service had been satisfactorily established before the India Committee. If, therefore, he objected to the noble Lord's clause it was not from any doubt that Natives of India would be found fully qualified to fill the offices referred to in it. The noble Lord's clause, however, was directed against an imaginary evil. The reason why Natives had not been employed in the Civil Service was this—The clause in the existing Act was merely permissive, and the Civil Service being entirely dependent on nomination, it had happened that no director had nominated a Native. Had a Native been nominated, he must have been employed. The present Bill abolished the system of nomination, and any. Natives who exhibited equal talent with Englishmen at the examination would obtain employment."—3 Hansard, vol. cxxix. p. 1449. This assurance was so clear and satisfactory as to induce him (Lord Monteagle) to abandon any intention of dividing the House, though he moved a declaratory clause on the third reading for the purpose of recording his opinion and conviction. He next came to the Act of 1858, transferring the Government of India from the Company to the Crown. While that measure was under discussion he took the opportunity of calling attention a third time to the miserable manner in which the promises previously made to the Natives of India had been redeemed. On that occasion he urged his noble Friend (Earl Granville) to hold out some more satisfactory assurance on that subject. His noble Friend answered by appealing to him not to press him for any specific declarations on the matter, observing that one of the duties of the Government, on the passing of the measure then in Parliament, would be to lay before Her Majesty, for Her gracious approval, a Proclamation which should declare Her intentions, and thereby fully recognize the rights of the Natives of India. His noble Friend added that it could not but be felt more gracious and more conducive to the future interests of India that those words of grace and favour should come from the lips of the Sovereign than appear to be forced from the Executive Government by any Parliamentary pressured To an appeal so just and reasonable he did not hesitate for a moment in acceding. The noble Lord's engagement had been performed to the letter, in that message of mercy with which Her Majesty strove to heal the wounds of India, after the mutiny. In the Royal Proclamation issued in November, 1858, and shortly afterwards circulated throughout India, the very words of the 87th Clause to which he had referred as the great charter of civil and religious equality for the people of India were incorporated. The language of the Proclamation was— We hold ourselves bound to the Natives of our Indian territories by the same obligations of duty which bind us to all our other subjects; and those obligations, by the blessing of Almighty God, we shall faithfully and conscientiously fulfil. Her Majesty continued— We decree that so far as may be, our subjects, of whatever race or creed, may be freely and impartially admitted to those offices in our service the duties of which they may be qualified by their education, ability, and integrity, fully to discharge. Such was the solemn confirmation given by the Sovereign, on assuming the Government of Her Indian Empire, to the pledge repeatedly held out by Parliament to the people of that country since the year 1833. It had been given by the Government of Earl Grey in 1833, by that of Earl Aberdeen in 1853. In both cases it had been adopted by Parliament as a part of the solemn compact made in renewing the charter. Finally, it was adopted and announced by the Sovereign Herself on assuming the full and undivided authority of ruling Her 180,000,000 of Indian subjects, constituting the most magnificent Empire in the world. Never was an engagement so solemnly contracted between the Crown, the Legislature, and the People. Yet the petitioners, whose case he stated, were still left, in a position to complain of its nonfulfllment. This statement he was fully prepared to prove. But before doing so he would ask leave to refer to one further authority he had omitted, which would show that the engagements entered into by England with the Natives of India had also been acknowledged by-one of the ablest men who had governed that country, he alluded to Lord Hardinge who in 1844 issued the following wise and liberal minute:— The Governor General having taken into consideration the state of Education in Bengal, and being of opinion that it is desirable to afford it every reasonable encouragement by holding out to those who have taken advantage of the opportunities provided a fair prospect of employment in the public service, not only to reward individual merit but to enable the State to profit largely by the measures taken for public instruction, has resolved, that in every case a preference shall be given to the candidates who shall have been educated in the established institutions, and who shall have distinguished themselves by more than an ordinary amount of merit and attainments, If there was one mode better than another of redeeming these often repeated pledges, it was to be found in the promotion of education, and especially of medical education and science in India. Nothing had done more to remove the prejudices of caste and advance the cause of civilization in India than: the establishment of the Medical College at Calcutta. This was among the many obligations which India owed to that most excellent man, Lord William Bentinck, who so long back as May 30, 1829, had by his minute announced that— The degree to which the Natives have conquered prejudices that without instruction would have been the most inveterate, is shown in the Hindoo College of Dr. Tytler, arid the Medical School of Dr. Breton, in which there are pupils Of high caste said to dissect animals, and even handle the bones of human skeletons. The Natives had a remarkable aptitude for medical science, and it was acknowledged by the high authority of the noble Earl opposite (Earl Ellenborough) that Native practitioners were frequently able to save lives that would be lost under the treatment of Europeans, Students of the Medical College at Calcutta came over to this country to mature their instruction, and entered successfully into full competition with their English fellow-students in our Universities and other training establishments; Nineteen of these Native gentlemen now held appointments in India with honour and credit to themselves. No doubt arose in their minds that the obligations which had been incurred by England would be fulfilled; In one instance a Native student who had obtained the second place among forty-two candidates; having completed his medical course here, went to pursue his studies on the Continent, and being anxious to acquire as much knowledge as he could, in addition to his medical and surgical acquirements had made himself master of three European languages. He thought that whilst it was impossible to overrate the importance of the visits of men whose minds had been highly cultivated and matured, as in the case of Dwarkanauth Tajore and Rammohun Roy, the claims of younger students should not be passed over. The education in our best British medical schools of diligent and well-instructed pupils of the Hindoo College, or of students brought up in the Grant and Elphinstone Institutions, men who had distinguished themselves as his Parsee petitioners had done, and who coming amongst us have obtained knowledge and profited by the opportunity of seeing with their own eyes, judging for themselves of all that Was in progress in England, and being thus enabled to report to their Indian brethren the results of their own experience and observation, this was the true way of spreading throughout India not only intellectual acquirements but respect and reverence for our land and its institutions. He alluded to the case in which two excellent friends of his own, Sir Edward Ryan and Mr. Charles Cameron, unfailing advocates of the rights of the Natives of India, had given their high authority to the force and effect of sect. 87, as establishing the eligibility of Natives to civil, military, and medical appointments. Of all the classes in India there was hardly one more interesting in itself, from the character of the race, their great intelligence, diligence, and superior mercantile habits, than the Parsees whose grievances were represented in this petition. Several of these had come over to this country, prepared by scientific education in India for pursuing the medical profession; and after having gone through a regular course of instruction and taken their degrees, passed the College of Surgeons, obtained other marks of honour, they made application to the Army Medical Department to be permitted to compete for admission to the competitive examination as preliminary to an appointment. They then learnt, for the first time, that the army of India had ceased to exist; that only one army now existed—the Queen's army—and that, therefore, there could no longer be a separate examination for Indian appointments, and but one examination for the united services. From the terms of the official letter from the Army Medical Department, the applicants were justified in entertaining the belief that there would be as free an admission to the combined examination, as there had previously been to the separate examination for India. East India Army Surgeons. [Circular.] November 14th, 1860. Sir,—I am directed by the Secretary of State for India in Council to acquaint you, in reference to your recent inquiry, that no separate competitive examination for the Indian Medical Service will take place in January next, but that at the next examination for Assistant Surgeons for Her Majesty's Army such additional number of appointments will be open to competition as will be sufficient to provide for the medical service of India also. All candidates at that examination will be subject to the Regulations issued by the War Office with regard to qualifications and examinations. I am, &c, W. E. BAKER, Col. It would scarcely have been possible to convey to the Parsee petitioners a more clear intimation that, though the separate examinations had ceased, yet one united examination would be established, and that to such united competitive examination the Natives of India would be freely admitted. But their Lordships would learn with no slight degree of surprise and regret (he might, perhaps, have used a stronger word), that when the time of examination appointed came, the answer obtained was not an admission to that competitive examination, but a statement that, in consequence of the varied climates which medical officers of Her Majesty's army had to encounter in the European and Colonial possessions of the British Crown, it was not thought advisable to subject Natives of India to the chances of service, out of their own country, and that in consequence it had been decided that such Native gentlemen should not be permitted to compete for appointments in the general military service. Here was an exclusion imposed where the statement of Earl Granville; the pledge of the Government contained in the law of the land in 1853; and last, but greatest of all assurances, the declaration given in Her Majesty's Proclamation had created perfect equality and eligibility. This was not all. The disqualification of all persons of Indian birth or parentage effected by Colonel Baker's Circular assigned no reason of policy, still less suggested any incompetency in the applicants. The motive put forward was as strange as the act was indefensible. An af- fectionate regard was forsooth professed for the health of those gentlemen, while depriving them of that which they had a right to expect; and they were invited, as an alternative for service in Europe or our Colonies, to betake themselves to the more inhospitable climate of Africa. This was a whimsical proof of regard for the health of these gentlemen, which he could not very well understand. The answer which these gentlemen returned was that where the law gave them equal eligibility they would not accept a qualified appointment. On their behalf he now took the liberty of claiming what he believed to be their strict legal right. If the law was objectionable, let it be altered; but where the law was clear, let it not be perverted by official prerogative. "Where the obligations of the Crown had been distinctly contracted, let not the administrators of the law take on themselves either to deny the equal rights secured by law, or to intercept the promised favour of the Sovereign. He believed their Lordships felt the deepest regret that the Natives of a distant possession should have so just a cause of complaint. He asked for nothing but what the law, the Ministers of the Crown, and the Sovereign had granted. He felt confident that so just a claim could not be refused. The noble Lord concluded by presenting the Petition, and moving an Address for Copies of all Rules and Regulations in force on the passing of the 21st and 22nd Victoria, Cap. 106, in any respect touching the Nomination or Examination for Medical and Surgical Military and Naval Officers in India; and Copies of any additional Regulations subsequently made on the same Subject under the Section 27 of the said Act: Names of Persons being Natives of India or of mixed Races appointed as Medical or Surgical Officers in the several Presidencies of Bengal, Madras, and Bombay, from the 1st January, 185f, to the present Time; distinguishing the Date of every such Appointment: Copies of any Applications to the Secretary of State for India or Army Medical Department made by Natives of India or of mixed Blood, from the passing of the 21st and 22nd Victoria, Cap. 106, praying for Admission to the competitive Examination for Army Medical Appointments in India, together with all Replies made thereto: Copies of Circular Letter, 14th November, 1860, from the India Office, communicating the Cessation of separate medical competitive Examinations for India.

LORD HERBERT

My Lords, there will be no objection to give the Correspondence which the noble Lord has moved for. I rejoice even at this late hour that I have an opportunity of answering the speech which the noble Lord has addressed to your Lordships, and in which—whether felicitously or infelicitously I, do not undertake to say—he has confounded two things which are perfectly distinct. The noble Lord ended by saying that the claim of these gentlemen is founded upon law, which gives them a right to all these appointments; but in a previous part of his speech he admitted that the appointments which were promised to Natives of India were appointments in India. The promise was made before the recent transfer of the Government of India to the Crown, and the appointments in question were then in the gift of the Company. The words of the Act are conclusive upon that point, because they express distinctly that the intention was to throw open to all persons, without distinction of creed or colour, "all appointments in the gift of the said Company." Natives of India were not to compete for English appointments—it was "India for the Indians," and the right which they had guaranteed to them by the Act was a right to compete for all appointments of a certain class in India. What do the petitioners now ask? They do not ask for local appointments in India, but they ask for appointments in the general service of the Crown, and they claim to be appointed as surgeons and assistant-surgeons to our Line regiments stationed all over the world. I admit at once and fully the acquirements, the skill, the knowledge, and the high character of these gentlemen. The delicacy of their hand is recognized in operations; but it is said they are deficient in some of the most valuable qualities which characterize the practitioners of this country. What is the business of an army surgeon? It is very different from that of a civil doctor. In the case of an army surgeon everything depends upon the degree of confidence which the men have in his skill. Recollect the men have no choice; they cannot go where they like for medical advice; a surgeon is imposed upon them, and it is of the very first importance that he should be possessed of their confidence. The army surgeon now is in a very different position from what he was when Sir Benjamin Brodie recommended his pupils never to go into the army. For a long time in our service the medical profession was not much regarded, but now we have the best skill which can be found; all the best men are coming to us. What is the result? It is that the recommendations of our army surgeons are treated with the greatest re- spect by our officers, and that the men have that confidence in their skill which is so essential to the success of their services. A doctor cannot cure a man who does not believe in him. The noble Lord may say that science has neither creed nor colour. That is quite true; but we know that Englishmen have not the same confidence in an Italian or a German doctor—to say nothing of an Indian doctor—which they have in an English one. When the petitioners first applied to me I consulted Dr. Gibson, who is at the head of the Army Medical Department, on the subject. He said he thought they were physically incompetent to bear, not the cold of England or the heat of any other country, but the constant vicissitudes and changes of climate to which they would be exposed in our service. I was not content with that. I thought I could not do better than take the opinion of some great authorities. Accordingly, I referred the question to three gentlemen—Dr. Gibson, Director General of the Army Medical Department, Sir John Liddell, Director General of the Naval Medical Department, and Sir R. Martin, a gentleman of great Indian experience. I asked them to go into the whole subject and report to me their joint opinion whether the petitioners were physically qualified to stand the exposure to the various climates in which they would be called upon to serve were they admitted into the medical department of Her Majesty's army. They reported as follows— It is our deliberate opinion, founded on experience, that the Native and mixed race of India and other tropical countries will never be able to sustain, for any length of time, the climate of our Northern regions, and that they can only be employed advantageously to the public service in climates similar to those in which their races exist. I thought that conclusive. In the face of such an opinion I could not comply with the request of these gentlemen from India, they having no claim by Act of Parliament for admission into the general service of the Queen. But we have never questioned their right to appointments in India; on the contrary, we have urged their employment in civil, police, and, possibly, military capacities in that country. I noticed that a smile was caused by the reference which the noble Lord made to the proposal of Dr. Gibson, that these gentlemen might be employed on the coast of Africa. Your Lordships have been told that the petititioners refused the offer made to them. They had a perfect right to do so; but I can only say that the appointments in question have since been filled by Englishmen, though the climate of Africa must be more trying to white men than to Indians. I regret that I should have been obliged to come to a decision which has given so much pain to the petitioners; but appointments are open to them in their own country, where, perhaps, they might be employed in many instances with more advantage and success than English practitioners. I object to the insinuation that I have overridden the Act of Parliament. It is my duty to secure the best men I can for Her Majesty's service, and that duty I have endeavoured to discharge to the best of my judgment. I again protest against the assumption that admission to the general service of the Crown was guaranteed to Natives of India by law. The guarantee was confined to India only.

THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH

My Lords, I confess I cannot understand on what principle a distinction is made in this matter between a Native of India and a native of Canada or Australia. I wish to state my opinion with regard to the general character of the Native doctors of India. While in that country I had an opportunity of seeing them in contrast with European doctors after the battles near Gwalior. Every morning and evening I visited the hospitals, both Native and European, and I must candidly say that I consider the management of the Native hospitals was superior to the management of the European hospitals. And the reason was obvious. In the Native hospitals there was the most perfect ventilation; while in the European there was none. I visited the European hospitals early, long before the doctor, and found the patients almost suffocated with the offensive air and the closeness of the rooms in which they were placed. It was thought that the best had been done for them because they were placed in a bungalow and were treated like gentlemen. The Native troops, on the contrary, were in hospitals as beautiful as those which I saw years ago in Florence, or as any that are to be found now in London. The conduct of the Native doctors was beyond all praise. I never saw men under such circumstances in greater comfort or better taken care of. There every advantage was taken to obtain ventilation. Instead of being in houses they were under canvas, and the best ventilation is that from the air which percolates through the canvas—it is ventilation without a rush of air. During the time I was in India I never needed the service of a doctor; but had I done so, and placed myself under the care of an European practitioner, the chances are that I should not now be addressing your Lordships. The Native doctors would meet the wants of the service if a fair chance is afforded to them. According to the reduced establishment, the Native army will in future consist of 110,000 men, divided into 240 regiments, who would afford ample occupation for 480 Native medical officers, and I am quite sure that they will be, under the general direction of Europeans, infinitely the best persons for the duty, because they know the effect of climate, which Europeans obstinately will never learn. The same thing which in this country would produce no ill effects, there, by the influence of climate, may become fatal, and that the Natives know, while the Europeans will not know it. As to the general employment of Natives, I have, and have always had, two opinions. One is, that every country must primarily be governed for the benefit of its own people; and the other is, that it is impossible to give good government to any country without availing yourself of the services of the people of that country. But, although I know many persons have a different opinion, I must say I think the course which, the Government, urged on by public opinion here, is obstinately pursuing in India in the way of education, must militate against the objects which all have in view. We are persevering in giving the highest education to the lowest class; but we take no pains to reach the higher classes. The consequence will be an over-educated and discontented people, with a body of persons possessed of property whose ignorance would prevent them from giving a useful support to the Government; and that will produce a state of society in which anarchy-will be inevitable and good government impossible. This has always been my opinion. I had intended when I was in India to take measures to promote the education of the higher classes of the Natives. I thought that the promotion of knowledge and civilization by education might descend from the higher classes; but I did not believe, nor do I now, that it could ascend from the lower classes to the higher. I know it is useless to speak this language here, when people are determined to have a certain number of persons, no matter whom, educated in the highest degree; but I am confident such a course involves much mischief and danger, and if it is persevered in, the object which all of us very properly desire to attain—the employment of a large portion of the respectable Native population in the government the country—will become impossible.

THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE

said, the noble Lord the Secretary for War had stated that the law referred to by the noble Lord who introduced the discussion related solely to employment in India. Was that the answer he gave to the petitioners? According to the law the army was for all parts of Her Majesty's dominions—the answer given to those gentlemen was that no separate competitive examination for the Indian Army was to be field in November. Was that an answer, to their case? What did they apply for? They applied, not for examination for the Indian Army—they applied to be admitted into the military service of the Crown, And the answer was most unfair. Why were they not admitted to the competitive examinations? The law said they were to be open; find were the Natives of India to find that this was a mere juggle, and that they were not to be employed? They were first told that a competitive examination was necessary; and when, they presented themselves they were told they were not to be admitted, And why? On account of their country, colour, caste—on account of matters which they had been distinctly told were not to be taken into consideration. An Indian, whether a Parsee or Hindoo, was not to be permitted to serve the Crown, Here was a population of 150,000,000 of men, some of them of the most warlike tribes; and we were laying down a rule depriving ourselves of the use of their services whenever the wants of the empire might require them—because if the ground of health was set up as a bar to the employment of Natives out of India it affected the services of the whole Indian Army, who, if properly trained, would be available for general service in any future war. The noble Lord stated that the petitioners had refused to go to Africa. They refused nothing. They said they were prepared to go anywhere in the ordinary course, of service, but they objected to be sent specifically to "the white man's grave." As to capacity to bear the variations of climate he thought the noble Earl was inerror, for it was well known that the Persians and Parsees were capable of en- during cold at least as well as Englishmen. He hoped that this matter would be well considered by the Government with a view to the removal of the grounds of those complaints. It was intended by the Act that the Asiatic subjects of Her Majesty should be put on an equality with all others of Her Majesty's subjects; and why should not the Natives of India be placed upon the same footing as the Canadians or inhabitants of other countries? It was absurd to think of governing India in defiance of the feelings or interests of the people.

EARL DE GREY AND RIPON

regretted the tone which the discussion had taken, for there was no act of the Government, whether of the Secretary for India or of the Secretary for War, which could justify the language of the noble Marquess, the was certainly very much surprised that it should be implied that there was any inclination on the part of the Government to deprive the Natives of India of their just claim to employment in the service of the Crown. At the present moment there were two Bills before Parliament making the Natives of India admissible to seats in the Legislative Council and on the Bench. The noble Marquess complained that these gentlemen having applied to be admitted to a competitive examination to the Indian medical service were refused, but the fact was that the examination was not for the Indian medical service, but for the general medical service o-f the Crown.

THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE

said it was distinctly stated in the despatches that it was an examination for India.

EARL DE GREY AND RIPON

assured the noble Marquess that he was under a misapprehension; it was not an examination for the Indian medical service, but for the general medical service. Under these circumstances, for the reasons he had stated, the Secretary for War did not think that these gentlemen were eligible. But with respect to their eligibility for other employment in India the case stood just as before. They were equally admissible to the Civil Service, and any Natives who might come home to qualify themselves and win distinction here would be admitted to the covenanted Service just in the same way as any other subjects of the Crown. With regard to the special case of these gentlemen the attention of the Governor General had been directed to it, and it might safely be left in his hands.

THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE

said he had confined his remarks entirely to the conduct of the War Office, and his information was taken from a letter signed by Colonel Baker, in which he said— At the next examination for assistants for Her Majesty's Army such additional number of appointments will be open to competition as will be sufficient to provide for the requirements of the service in India.

EARL DE GREY AND RIPON

explained that since the amalgamation of the two armies the only mode by which a medical officer could get to India was by being admitted to one of the Line regiments, and whether he went to India or not would depend entirely on the requirements of the service. He might be sent there, or he might be sent to Canada, or to the west coast of Africa.

LORD MONTEAGLE

was glad to find the question referred to the very authority in whom he had most confidence.

Motion agreed to.

House adjourned at a quarter past Nine o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.