Lords Sitting of 21 June 1861

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Larceny, &c.; Malicious Injuries to Property; Forgery; Coinage Offences.
2a East India Loan.

CRIMINAL LAW CONSOLIDATION.
THE LORD CHANCELLORmoved that four Bills on the subject, which had passed the Commons, should be read a first time, and congratulated the House on their progress.
LORD BROUGHAMheartily joined in the congratulations of the Lord Chancellor. His hopes were now sanguine that we should at length have a digest of at least the criminal law, and it had been, hitherto, almost impossible not to despair. For many years he had laboured strenuously to obtain this great benefit to our jurisprudence and to the county. Above twelve years ago he had so far succeeded that the Commissioners, whom when in office he had appointed, having reported the heads of a Bill he had framed, a digest of which was fully discussed in a Select Committee; and another digest had been afterwards prepared by him from the report of the learned and experienced Commissioners, and afterwards examined by a Select Committee, with the assistance of experienced and skilful practitioners. We had the invaluable assistance, also, of Members of this House, not law Lords, of whom one might be named, as he was not now present, Lord Overstone, whose high commercial station, and whose great weight, arising from his position, but still more his eminent sagacity and acuteness was of incalculable value in the inquiry. But, when all was prepared and reported to the House, it was found utterly hopeless to have the other House's adoption of it. If that House, with all its magistrates and lawyers, were to discuss three or four hundred clauses of a digest, whose only purpose was the consolidation of the law and not its alteration, it was absolutely impossible that it should be carried. There was but one way of having such digest, if you really desire to have one. As Lord Lyndhurst had observed, either you wish for a digest or you do not. If you will not commit the preparing it to men in whom you can confide, but are resolved to have each word discussed in the Commons, confess at once that you do not want to have a digest. Only consider how the discussion must go on. The magistrates are a most valuable body of men; they perform inestimable service to the country with the utmost integrity, the most exemplary diligence, and fair ability. But they are not made for discussing the phraseology of Acts of Parliament. The bare idea of two or three hundred clauses, discussed clause by clause, in a House having half a hundred county justices, twenty or thirty town magistrates, and many more country gentlemen, whose solicitors, or whose sons preparing for the Bar, set them on and furnish them with objections to every
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other word of the digest, was enough to make the least somnolent slumber, and turn the steadiest head. There is but one way of obtaining what we all want, and that is to delegate the details to skilful and trustworthy persons, and to adopt the result of their labours. The Commons, happily, have at length admitted this truth in passing the Bills sent down from this House, and he rejoiced so heartily in the prospect afforded, that he no longer regretted the long years of labour which he had bestowed on it, and till now without hopes of the public or the law reaping any fruit from his toil.

THE INDIAN NAVY.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHrose to put a Question to the noble Duke at the head of the Admiralty on the subject of the Indian Navy. Having read a passage from the speech of Mr. Laing proposing a reduction of the Indian Navy, the noble Earl said that from this speech he was afraid Mr. Laing was not aware of the original purpose for which this navy was established. It never was intended to place it in a position to contend with any European Power, for everybody knew that in any such contingency a naval force would be sent out from this country. It was created for local purposes only—for putting down piracy, transporting troops and treasure, and other duties which Her Majesty's ships were in the habit of performing in times of peace. So far back as thirty years ago he had calculated that a reduction might be made in the expenses of the Indian Navy by the employment of Her Majesty's ships for these purposes—he calculated the saving by such a change at something like £100,000 a year; but he had always contemplated that the Indian Government should pay for the European force, which might be employed on their requisition by Her Majesty's Government, and that that force should be as much at its disposal as the purely local force. The difficulty was, however, that the Admiralty always reserved to themselves the absolute command of every force which they despatched to any part of the world, and would not delegate it to the Indian Government on any other authority. If the Government of 1846, when he was at the head of the Admiralty, had lasted for a longer period he had no doubt that an arrangement would have been made; but it was brought to a sudden termina-

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tion, and there had been no opportunity since of renewing the discussion of the matter. He wished to know who was to pay for the naval force to be substituted for that now employed in India. If the Indian Government were to pay for it the reduction of expenditure contemplated by Mr. Laing could hardly be maintained, and if this country were called upon to pay for an additional naval force to supply the place of these ships this would seriously interfere with the surplus anticipated by Mr. Gladstone, As, the Indian Navy was doomed he could not help saying a word in its favour. It was originally called the Bombay Marine, and had performed very considerable service on many occasions. Iii the first war with Ava it performed considerable service; and the first steamer ever employed in war was a steamer belonging to the East India Company. Again, in the China war of 1839, the first iron steamers were employed in that war and were manned by crews in the service of the Company; and it was only due to the Indian Navy to say that it had done good service whenever it had been called upon. If the proposed arrangement were carried out, he hoped the noble Duke, the first Lord of the Admiralty, would take into consideration the; expediency of establishing a Native force of, Arab marines under the command of local officers speaking their language. To every one of Her Majesty's ships sent fop service in the Indian sea? a small body of these marines ought invariably to be attached or, otherwise, these vessels would, often have no means whatever of communicating with the shore, What he desired to know was what arrangement had been made for the purpose of placing at the disposal of the Indian Government a sufficient force of Her Majesty's ships to supply the place of the Indian Navy, and whether the expense would fall upon the Indian or the English Treasury?
THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, the question put to him was one of great importance, and had occupied considerable attention on the part; of Her Majesty's Government; but they had not yet come to any absolute conclusion upon it. With regard to the financial part of the scheme, he believed the Indian Government had taken sufficient; funds for this year amply to provide for such naval service as they required, the amount of the service being very much reduced as compared with previous years. A question which had a fur-
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ther financial bearing was whether the Indian Navy should be entirely abolished, or whether a certain proportion of vessels should still be retained for river service and coasting communication, in the event of the further naval defence of India being intrusted to-Her Majesty's Navy. This was a view which had been favourably considered by the Government; but up to the present time his right hon. Friend (Sir Charles Wood) had come to no definite conclusion. If the British Government were to take upon themselves additional expenditure account of the naval requirements of India, of course it would be but fair to this country that the Indian Exchequer should, to some extend contribute to that expenditure. Thai question had not yet been fully considered, nor whether the Indian Navy should be, entirely abolished, or some portion of it retained. Probably a portion pf the smaller vessels of the Indian Navy should be retained. From all he had heard of this navy, he believed it had always done its duty, and he fully admitted that its services ought to be duly remembered by the House.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, he had heard with great satisfaction the opinion of Her Majesty's Government in favour of refining the smaller vessels. As to retaining the larger vessels, he would say that if they were retained they would be found valuable in the case of any sudden emergency, because on the breaking put of a war in India before the news arrived in England the Indian fleet might be in action.

PRIVATE BILLS—STANDING ORDERS.

  STANDING ORDER No. 185.
  LORD REDESDALEmoved, that the Standing Order No. 185 (formerly be considered, in order to its being amended in the following:—After paragraph 2, to insert—
  "3. That no Provision authorizing any Company to raise Money or to subscribe towards or to guarantee any Money in the Undertaking of another Company, shall be introduced into any Bill which is riot brought in by the Company thereby authorized to raise Money op to subscribe or to guarantee,"
  It had been said that such a provision would interfere with fee establishment of branch railways; but he maintained that there would be no such interference in the case of lines which were really required. Such branch lines were frequently got

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  up without first obtaining proper support from the companies of the main line itself. The effect of the adoption of the Amendment to the Standing Order would be that the promoters of small railway schemes must, in the first place, go to the Company from whom they expected to receive assistance, and who would then consider if, and see if fair exertions lad been used to obtain that independent support of the line which it was right that it should receive. And having been satisfied that that had been the case, and that they had failed, they themselves would then bring in the Bill. He had been in communication with several Chairmen of Committees of the House of Commons upon the subject, who generally approved of the Amendment. They agreed that some legislation was required to check the practice of forming small branch line companies without independent capital, and only in the expectation of obtaining the necessary funds from the Company of the main line; and one of these Gentlemen mentioned that in the course of the present Session a railway Bill came before him for the construction of a branch line, which was estimated to cost £400,000. It turned out that in that case, although only £3,300 had been paid up on calls, the sum deposited under the Standing Orders was £37,000. From what fund it was supplied, however, did not appear;' but it came out in the course of the inquiry that the whole of the remainder of the capital, upwards of £300,000, was to be raised by the London and North-Western Railway Company.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, that his experience of branch lines was that they were usually projected by the residents in particular districts upon their finding that it was almost intolerable to be left without railway communication. They then exerted themselves to get up subscriptions for the purpose, and' very naturally went to the railway company whose line they proposed to join, and with whom the first and main consideration was whether there was any other competing line to which the tragic of the district could go if they did not secure it for themselves. If they found that the traffic could not go upon any line but their own, then they would be in no hurry whatever to assist the new branch line; they would consequently turn their attention to other cases where they feared competition more, and to the district in which
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  they were most exposed to competition, not to that which required a railway most, they would apply their resources. He took quite a different view of the subject from the noble Lord. His opinion was, and it was fortified by his experience throughout the United Kingdom and the Continent of Europe, that the wonderful advantage of these instruments in the development of wealth had been proved to such a degree that to encourage the construction of lines in districts which were not at present provided with railways was alike consistent with reason and sound sense. In Ireland the country might be said to be divided between two great companies; and it was notorious in the cases of small branch lines that the only question was in which district would they run? If a company found that a district was bound to them it had small chance of being assisted to form a branch line; or that the line ran into-their rival's district, of course they would have nothing-to do with it; whilst no assistance was to be obtained from the other. He had been assured by several friends in Great Britain that they were very similarly circumstanced; and that the assistance which they were able to get from the great companies mainly depended upon whether they had any chance of rivalry or opposition from other quarters. He was, therefore, very averse to adding another impediment and difficulty in the way of the formation of these branch lines. He had never heard of any branch line doing much mischief, and very few had been given up. The great companies would always take care not to lend their money too hastily; and he did not see why agricultural districts that were without commercial wealth should not have fair facilities offered them for developing their resources. The Amendment to the Order would add to the expense and difficulty of obtaining such branch lines.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he did not think the object of the noble Earl would be attained by the Amendment to the Standing Order. There were few great railway companies that had not made arrangements of this kind; and, should the Standing Order be amended as proposed, he feared it would deter those companies from promoting the construction of branch lines that were essential to the completion of the railway system of the country. He thought it was the duty of Parliament to simplify as much as possible the compli-

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  cated system of railway legislation, and diminish its expense. But it was quite clear that the Amendment would augment the expense. Any change had better be made by some general Order in which both Houses could concur; and being unwilling to take the responsibility of the proposed change by this House only, he should oppose the Amendment.
  LORD LIFFORDconcurred in the remarks which had fallen from the noble Marquess. The effect of the Amendment of the Standing Order would be to protect one great interest in the country, and that was the interest of the law, by increasing the expense of railway Bills and promoting litigation; and he trusted that the noble Marquess's argument would induce his noble Friend to withdraw his proposal.
  LORD PORTMANalso opposed the Motion, the adoption of which, he contended, would throw immense difficulties in the way of small railway lines, which could only be constructed by the assistance of the larger companies.
  LORD REDESDALEheld that the Amendment would have the effect of putting all parties on a just and proper footing, in regard alike to themselves, the public, and Parliament. He granted that without the assistance of the larger companies many smaller schemes could not be carried oat, and he did not object to that assistance being supplied; but what he wanted was that it should, be given in a proper form. His Motion would ensure prudence in the action of the parties at the first starting of the scheme; whereas at present more. than half the schemes which came before Parliament had no foundation whatever.
  LORD STANLEY, OF ALDERLEYobjected to the introduction of special legislation as regarded railways merely by the [Resolution of one House of Parliament, and the establishment by one Standing Order of a general law applicable to all railways in which the House of Commons was not asked to concur. If legislation of this kind was required it should be provided by the joint action of both Houses, and by a general Order which would be applied by both Houses. He had another objection to the alteration—that it would necessitate the application to Parliament by both companies, the assisting and the assisted, and thus the inconvenience and expense would be greatly increased.
  LORD TAUNTONsaid, he did not per-
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  ceive the force of the noble Lord's objection, as if this House adopted the proposed Amendment it would be quite open to the other House. He thought there was great force in the argument of the noble Lord who had proposed the Amendment.
  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, he had the greatest possible respect for the opinion of his noble Friend the Chairman of Committees, and agreed, moreover, in the general policy of his Motion. He could not, however, but think that the terms of the Resolution went beyond the necessity of the case. He would, therefore, suggest to his noble Friend whether his object would not be entirely answered if, instead of the Bill being introduced by the company proposing to advance the money, the Bill were not allowed to pass unless there were an undertaking—which might be inserted in the preamble—binding the company proposing to advance the money to fulfil that stipulation? It would perhaps be sufficient if the assisting company appeared before the Committee and signified its willingness to bind itself, and if its undertaking were then recited in the Bill.
  EARL GREYthought that before the Bill was brought in the assent of the company intending to subscribe should be obtained. A Standing Order ought to be adopted requiring satisfactory proof to be given that the other company was willing to bind itself to advance the money.
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, he would endeavour to modify his Resolution in accordance with the suggestion of his noble Friend, as he merely wished to carry the House with him as far as possible. At the same time he retained his opinion that unless the parties who were to advance the money were themselves either joint promoters of the Bill, or in some way concerned in it, the object in view could not be satisfactorily attained. He would, however, not press his Resolution at present, but take time to frame it in another shape.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

CHURCH BUILDING ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.—SECOND READING PUT OFF.
THE BISHOP OF CHICHESTER(who was very imperfectly heard), in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, said the object of the measure was to remove a serious practical difficulty in the way of supplying additional spiritual instruction for populous districts. Under the Church Building Acts,

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when a new church was proposed to be erected notice was required to be given to the patron and the incumbent of the parish, in order that if they were willing to undertake the expense of providing more church accommodation they might have the priority in doing so. But in certain districts where there was an increasing population no patron and no incumbent had existed for centuries past. The right rev. Prelate was understood to state as an instance, that some four centuries ago an encroachment of the sea destroyed several parishes lying between Hastings and St. Leonard's, leaving a narrow slip of land between the sea and the steep cliffs which rose above. Of late years a great number of houses had been built here, occupied by a population of several thousand persons, and churches had been erected; but it had been found impossible, as the law now stood, to place the ministers of these churches in the full and proper relation in which they ought to stand towards those to whom they ministered. When he applied for an assignment of a district to these churches to the Church Building Commissioners, and afterwards to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, to whom had subsequently been transferred the powers formerly possessed by the Church Building Commissioners, he was always asked, "Have you given notice to the patron? Have you given notice to the incumbent of the parish?" Why, ever since the parishes had been swept away by the irruption of the sea, leaving only these fragmentary slips of land, there had been no patron, there had been no incumbent. "Well," replied the Commissioners, "under the circumstances we can do nothing. We cannot assist you in accomplishing the praiseworthy object of placing the ministers of the different churches in a right position towards their congregations." The Bill which he now asked their Lordships to read a second time had no other object in view than to remedy this difficulty, and to enable the ecclesiastical Commissioners, in cases where there was neither patron nor incumbent in existence, to proceed as if the provisions of the Church Building Acts requiring notice to be given to the patron and incumbent had been complied with.
LORD PORTMANthought the Bill was not so simple as the right rev. Prelate described it. It dealt, not with St. Leonard's only, but it went elsewhere. How could it be said that there was no patron? Why a man might start up any day and say,
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"I am the patron." The specific instance proposed to be dealt with was that caused by the incursion of the sea at St. Leonard's but the Bill said, that wherever, by the encroachment of the sea or any other cause, there was no incumbent the consent of the incumbent should not be required. The Bill, therefore, interfered with the rights of the Crown and of private patrons without providing carefully for ascertaining who the persons entitled might be. Again, the Ecclesiastical Commissioners were to be considered the patrons where there was no other patron; and all marriages celebrated in the churches affected by the Bill were to be deemed marriages in the parish church. The Bill required much consideration on the part of their Lordships before they agreed to a second reading.
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he was not prepared to give advice with regard to this Bill. There were already so many Church Building Acts that if they were bound together they would make an unwieldy volume. He concurred with the noble Lord who had last spoken, that the Bill required careful consideration before the second reading was assented to.
THE BISHOP OF CARLISLEremarked that these churches were in a most novel and anomalous position; and it was most desirable to place the ministers on a proper footing in relation to their congregations.
THE BISHOP OF CHICHESTERstated, that in framing the Bill he had obtained the assistance of a professional gentleman, who had had at least as many dealings with the Church Buildings Acts, and as much experience in drawing Bills, as any man in his profession; he meant Mr. Bellenden Ker. He was quite willing to postpone the second reading, in order that their Lordships might have time to fully consider the subject.
Second Reading put of to Thursday next.

EAST INDIAN LOAN BILL.

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second, Reading read.
  EARL DE GREY AND RIPON, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said the necessity for the loan which it gave power to contract did not arise from any deficiency of income or excess of expenditure in India, but simply from the state of the cash balances in the home Treasury. Those who were acquainted with Indian

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  matters would be aware that, speaking theoretically there was no mode by which the Home Treasury could be supplied except by remittances from India; but, of late years since the establishment of the railway system, the Indian railway companies had been accustomed to pay into the Home Treasury the sums necessary for the execution of their works; and money Was advanced to them in India by the Indian Government so that between the two there had always been balances in the Home Treasury which rendered actual remittances from India unnecessary. At the end of the financial year 1860 these balanees amounted to £2,220,000; but owing to short payments by the railway companies and the state of the money-market during the past year, at the end of the last financial year, tire balances had fallen to a little less than £370,000! In addition to that, owing to the state of the cash balances in India, the Secretary of State bad thought it advisable, in order that the railways now in the course of construction in India should not be stopped, to remit the sum of £1,000,000 sterling to India. The estimated amount of expenditure in England on Indian account for the Current year was £9,500,000; the estimated expenditure on railways £8,000,000 composed of £6,000,000 to be spent in India, and £2,000,000 at home, so that, If it were borne in mind that two terns expended for railway purposes in India was the only form in which a remittance to this country would be looked for, there would remain £3,500,000, at least; of home expenditure on Indian account to be provided for in this country. In order, therefore, to meet the demands which would thus be made on the Home Treasury his right hon. Friend found it necessary to apply to Parliament for authority to borrow the sum of £4,000,000 in this country, and to give him that authority was the object of this Bill.
  Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

GREENWICH HOSPITAL BILL.

  REPORT.—ORDER DISCHARGED.
  Order of the Day or receiving the Report; of the Amendment read.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, that In consequence of the objections which had been raised against this measure in this House, and the still more powerful opposition which be understood would be raised
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  in "another place," upon the ground that the Bill was objectionable in its form, inasmuch as it should have originated in the House of Commons, he did not propose to proceed with it further. He Wished, however, to say a few words, arising from a remark of the noble Earl (the Earl of Hardwicke), in reference to an appointment he had recently made to one of the livings, It would be satisfactory to their Lordships to know that that appointment had not been made for party or personal purposes. The circumstances were these. He had the appointment of a chaplain to one of the livings upon the Hospital property in the north of England; and he selected for the living a gentleman who had been chaplain in the service of the Admiralty on the Mediterranean and Black Sea stations. He was five years chaplain On board the Albion; and whilst he was there the ship's company was attacked most severely by small-pox and cholera, eighty men being carried off in a few days. This clergyman was, during this time) most assiduous in his attentions to the sick and dying. The ship's company's suffered in the attack on Sebastopol the loss being eighty-seven men; and this same chaplain, on that occasion, assisted the surgeon to the utmost of his power. The surgeon and the paymaster were both wounded, and the chaplain continued to render assistance to the wounded sailors, and continued this assistance after he himself was slightly wounded. Having obtained a report to this effect from officers in command, he confessed he thought that the gentleman Was very fit for the preferment; and he thought that their Lordships would see that he had been actuated by no other motive than zeal for the interests of the service; It would also be gratifying to their Lordships to know that Since the gentleman had filled the living he had given the greatest satisfaction in the parish and was most popular in the neighbourhood.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid he recollected that when a boy the great living of Symington was divided into six livings upon the Understanding that they should be given to chaplains in the navy as a reward for services; the object being to enable the Admiralty to induce a more respectable class to enter the service; The noble Duke had done right in promoting this gentleman, and the only doubt he had was whether the noble Duke ought not to have relaxed the Order in Council in his

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  favour, and made him a commander in the navy?
  THE EARL OF HARDWICKEdisclaimed having had any intention of imputing to the noble Duke that he had used the Hospital patronage for political purposes. What he said was that Greenwich Hospital had been used by all patties for political purposes, and he thought the opportunity had now arrived for doing that Which Would at once put an end to the possibility of doing the same sort of thing for the future. He thought that the property of the Hospital should be managed by an independent body of persons selected for that purpose by the Crown, and responsible to Parliament; Whilst the internal management of the Hospital should be regulated by the Governor, Lieutenant Governor, and other officers.
  EARL GREYunderstood the Bill would re-appear in this Souse at a Very late period of the Session, when he should certainly not be present. He would now, therefore, express a hope that a more effectual remedy for the evils which were allowed to exist in the management of the Hospital would be applied than that which had been suggested. He could bear testimony to the fact that Greenwich Hospital used to be considered as pile of the great interests in the county with which he was connected. It was one of the great objects of any candidate there to secure that interest and on one occasion—in 1826—it had told powerfully against himself. For the last twenty-five years or more this influence had not been exerted on either side, but it was impossible not to admit that there was some danger of a revival of this influence at a future time. That dagger would not, however, be averted by the plan proposed. At present all our public servants were subordinate to Ministers; who in their turn were responsible to Parliament. If this sound principle were departed from, and ah independent authority like that suggested by the noble Earl were created, abuses of a far more dangerous description would spring up than existed under the present system. Ministers of the Crown were liable to answer to parliament for any such abuses, but permanent servants of the public would be exempt from this control; it would be difficult to make them properly responsible to anybody; and jobbing and mismanagement, of which we had no experience, would ensue if Parliament created what was known in foreign countries as a bureaucracie. The proper
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  mode of guarding against the evils anticipated was by selling the Greenwich Hospital property. He was persuaded that the public was an essentially bad owner of landed property. On a long series of years it was impossible that land could be well managed on behalf of the public, though it was quite true that for the last twenty-seven years the Greenwich Hospital estates had been admirably managed. On referring to the Report of the Commissioners he found Sir James Graham expressed a strong opinion that they were not likely to get another Receiver who would manage the affairs of the Hospital with equal success. By the sale of the property the Commissioners themselves stated there would be an immediate, accession to the income of the Hospital; and, considering the advantage to the country of having this property held by residents instead of absentees, he hoped the noble Duke would consider the expediency of selling it. There could not be a more advantageous time for effecting a sale than the present. A considerable part of the estates of Greenwich Hospital was sold about twenty-eight or thirty years ago, just before the present Receiver was appointed. But it realized a most inadequate price. Now, however, if the present Receiver were authorized to take measures for selling the property, under the control of the Admiralty, there was an opportunity of realizing its true value, to the great benefit of the public; it would also provide a security against future abuses and evils. It seemed almost an absurdity that this property should be retained by a public body. Of the whole expenditure of the Hospital, only a small proportion, about £40,000 a year, was derived from this property. Considering the hopeless task of creating an authority to which the management of a property of this kind could be safely trusted, he hoped the Government would weigh the advantages to be derived from selling it.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, the Bill on this subject would be introduced into the House of Commons, and he could only say that in the Amendments he should introduce it would be his earnest desire to meet the wishes of their Lordships.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHtrusted that the Bill to come up from the other House would not contain words to the effect that any number of places might be created, at any amount of salary.
  Order discharged; and Bill (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

INDIA (COMPETITIVE EXAMINATION)— EXCLUSION OF NATIVES FROM ARMY MEDICAL SERVICE.

  PETITION—ADDRESS FOR PAPERS.
  LORD MONTEAGLErose to present a Petition from certain British subjects—Parsees—Natives of India, complaining of their exclusion from the competitive examination required for appointments to office. He would also move for all Official Correspondence relating to their case. He said, the question he felt it his duty to bring under their Lordships' notice, not only stated a grievance of which the petitioners had the justest right to complain, but involved the still more important question of the obligations the Legislature of the United Kingdom had contracted in reference to British subjects in India, and of those obligations the Crown had more recently assumed on the transfer to the Sovereign, of the Government of the Indian Empire. This question included the civil rights and privileges of the Natives of India, and their eligibility to all official appointments under the Government. He did not wish to state the case of the petitioners without assuring the House that he brought it forward without any wish to express any reproach or imply any mistrust of the conduct of the present Governor General; he wished to speak of the conduct of Lord Canning, from his arrival in India to the present time, with all the respect that was so justly due to him, and more especially for the justice and sympathy he had manifested for the Natives. The Act of Parliament to which he first wished to call attention was that of 1833—the Charter Act of 1833 (3 & 4 Will. IV. c. 85)—the 87th Clause of which statute enacted, that
  "No Native of India nor any natural-born subject of Great Britain, nor any natural-born subject resident therein, should, by reason only of his religion, place of birth, or colour, be disabled from holding place, office, or appointment under the East India Company."
  The words of that clause had his entire concurrence. They were comprehensive; admitting of no doubt or exception. But he grieved to say that there was conclusive evidence to prove that, in practice by the construction given to the words he had read, they had been made subject to the most narrow and ungenerous limitation. What was the just meaning of the clause, and the intention of Parliament he would prove by referring to the authority of the statesmen by whom this Bill was prepared,
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  or supported. At that time Mr. Charles Grant, now Lord Glenelg, was President of the Board of Control; Mr. Charles W. Wynn had been Jus predecessor; Lord Macaulay filled the office of Secretary for India; the Duke of Wellington, a great authority on all subjects, but especially on Indian affairs, was in the maturity of his power; the Marquess of Lansdowne had undertaken the charge of the India Bill, representing in this duty, the Government of the late Earl Grey. Those Statesmen all expressed their high approval of the 87th Clause, or, of the principle on which, it rested. That clause had not been carelessly framed, or, surreptitiously introduced. It was carried unanimously, its object and its consequences having been first pointed out, and the special approval of Parliament, justly claimed and given to its authors and their supporters. Mr. Wynn, who had at that time quitted Earl Grey's Government, stated on the 10th of July—
  "It is with great pleasure I have heard a declaration that all Natives of India, without regard to colour, descent, or religion, should be eligible to every office under the Government which their education might qualify them to fill." He went still further, declaring emphatically "That the only principle on which India could be justly or wisely administered was that of admitting the Natives to a participation in the Government, and allowing them to hold every office, the duties of which they were competent to discharge."
  Lord Macaulay, on the same day, in one of the most powerful and finished of his orations, described the 87th Clause as "wise, benevolent, and noble, enacting that no Native of our Indian Empire shall, by reason of his descent, colour or religion, be incapable of holding office. To the last day of my life," he added, "I shall be proud of having been one of those who assisted in the framing of the Bill which contains that clause." He concluded by asking, "Do we think that we can give knowledge without awakening ambition; and do we mean to awaken ambition and to give it no legitimate vent?" The Duke of Wellington was somewhat more guarded, but without differing in principle. His words were—
  "If there was one point on which all parties had agreed—and he made this assertion from a perusal of the evidence taken before the Committees which sat in both Houses—it was that the Natives of India should, as much as possible, be employed in the revenue and judicial establishments of the country. That point was again and again impressed on the attention of Ministers in the evidence of the last Session."
  The organ of Earl Grey's Government,

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  the Marquess of Lansdowne, was still more explicit in his statement of the facts, and in his exposition of the Bill, of which he moved the second reading—
  "It was part of the new system which he had to propose, that to every office in India, every Native of whatever caste, sect, or religion, should be by law equally admissible; and he hoped the Government would seriously endeavour to give the fullest effect to this arrangement, which would be as beneficial to the people themselves as it would be advantageous to the economical reforms which were now in progress in different parts of India. The Natives," he continued, "are alive to the grievance of being excluded from a larger share in the Executive Government. They are at present only employed in subordinate situations in the revenue, judicial, and military departments. It is amply borne out by the evidence that such exclusion is not warranted on the score of incapacity for business, want of application, or of trustworthiness; while it is contended that their admission, under European control, into the higher offices would strengthen their attachment to British connection, and would conduce to the better administration of justice."
  This evidence is conclusive with respect to the intentions of the framers of the Charter Act of 1833, and gives an unimpeachable commentary on the true meaning of that statute. The fundamental principle on which it rests never had a more decided support than from a noble Earl (the Earl of Ellenborough) now in the House, and whose high abilities and eloquence have never been more brilliantly employed than upon Indian affairs in assisting and guiding the deliberations of Parliament. He observed in 1830, that
  "Among the means of reducing expenditure was the very desirable one of reducing gradually the number of Europeans employed, and of bringing forward, though gradually and with extreme caution, the most deserving Natives by employing them in situations of higher authority and trust than they bad hitherto been accustomed to fill."
  The next period to which he would refer was 1853, when the renewal of the Charter again toot place. While this latter Bill was in progress through the other House he (Lord Monteagle) inquired, perhaps somewhat Drematurely, of his noble Friend (Earl Granville) whether the principle of competition for the civil service would be extended to Natives of India. The conversation which took place in the House of Lords on the 13th June (Hansard's Debates, vol. cxxviii. p. 48) was irresistible in showing that the declarations made by the Government of Earl Grey in 1833 were repeated, adopted, and strengthened by their successors in the Cabinet of the Earl of Aberdeen twenty years subsequently; and of that Cabinet the leading persons in the
  1394
  present Administration were members. On that occasion he (Lord Monteagle) raised the discussion as follows:—
  "Lord Monteagle: The question which he wished to ask the Government was this, Whether the principle of competition proposed to be applied to the Civil Service would be extended to Natives of India as well as to European-born subjects of the Crown? Supposing the case of a Native medical student, being the Queen's subject, born at Calcutta, would he be admitted to the free competition for a medical appointment, in the same manner as if he were European born?
  "Earl Granville, in answer, had not the slightest hesitation in saying that, if Natives of India arrived here competent to pass the required examination, they would gain the appointment awarded, in free competition, the same as if they had been born in Europe.
  "Lord Monteagle stated that he received this reply with the greatest delight—Jess from any largo immediate consequence to which it would lead, than from the all-important results which it must produce, in carrying out eventually the full meaning of the 87th Clause of the last Charter Act and the intention of its framers. It had been stated by Lord Lansdowne in 1833 that there should be an entire equality among all the subjects of the Queen, whatever their colour or their religion. He considered the reply now given by the Government, through Earl Granville, to be a fulfilment of this engagement. It would be the entire destruction of the monopoly of what was called the covenanted service as now understood. He was mistaken if there had not been, with respect to these covenanted appointments, a violation of the law of 1833 as it had passed.
  "The Marquess of Clanricarde desired to express his great satisfaction at the statement of Earl Granville that the Natives of India would hereafter be eligible for the highest civil appointments. That certainly was a great step.
  "The Earl of Albemarle: A great stress has been laid on that portion of the Government plan which laid the higher departments of the civil service of India open to the Natives of the country; but so long as their admission to this competition depended merely on a single clause in an Act of Parliament, which was liable to be set aside or disavowed by subordinate authority, he, for one, must be allowed to state that his objections would remain as strong as ever."—Hansard cxxviii. pp. 48, 66.
  Upon moving the second reading of the Bill in that House, August 5th, the noble Earl (Earl Granville), who had charge of the India Bill, said he was bound to admit that the intentions of the Legislature had not, up to that time, been carried out, and that the Natives of India were not employed to the extent which he should wish them to be employed, but that the Bill he then proposed would give a free entry for Natives of India into the covenanted services. Again, on the 8th and 12th of August, the same subject was resumed, and an explanation was given by Earl Granville, pointing out the reason why the exclusion of Natives from the

  1395
  covenanted service had been, hitherto enforced, but why Parliament might confidently expect that such exclusion would cease on the passing of the Bill then before the House. He (Lord Monteagle) then adverted to the circumstance that,—
  "Notwithstanding the 87th Clause introduced into the Act of 1833, renewing the Company's Charter, and declaring the eligibility of Natives to the covenanted service, not one had ever been admitted; recommended a clause, declaring that no natural-born subject of Her Majesty should, by reason of colour, Of religion, or place of birth, be incapable of holding office and employment under the Company, whether in the covenanted or uncovenanted service. If this clause should not be inserted in the Bill, the Company might treat the wishes and intentions of the Government in this respect as mere moonshine. He begged to give notice that he would bring up this clause on the third reading, in order that his proposal might stand recorded in the Journals.
  "Earl Granville observed, that the aptitude of Natives for certain departments of the service had been satisfactorily established before the India Committee. If, therefore, he objected to the noble Lord's clause it was not from any doubt that Natives of India would be found fully qualified to fill the offices referred to in it. The noble Lord's clause, however, was directed against an imaginary evil. The reason why Natives had not been employed in the Civil Service was this—The clause in the existing Act was merely permissive, and the Civil Service being entirely dependent on nomination, it had happened that no director had nominated a Native. Had a Native been nominated, he must have been employed. The present Bill abolished the system of nomination, and any. Natives who exhibited equal talent with Englishmen at the examination would obtain employment."—3 Hansard, vol. cxxix. p. 1449.
  This assurance was so clear and satisfactory as to induce him (Lord Monteagle) to abandon any intention of dividing the House, though he moved a declaratory clause on the third reading for the purpose of recording his opinion and conviction. He next came to the Act of 1858, transferring the Government of India from the Company to the Crown. While that measure was under discussion he took the opportunity of calling attention a third time to the miserable manner in which the promises previously made to the Natives of India had been redeemed. On that occasion he urged his noble Friend (Earl Granville) to hold out some more satisfactory assurance on that subject. His noble Friend answered by appealing to him not to press him for any specific declarations on the matter, observing that one of the duties of the Government, on the passing of the measure then in Parliament, would be to lay before Her Majesty, for Her gracious approval, a Proclamation which should declare Her intentions, and
  1396
  thereby fully recognize the rights of the Natives of India. His noble Friend added that it could not but be felt more gracious and more conducive to the future interests of India that those words of grace and favour should come from the lips of the Sovereign than appear to be forced from the Executive Government by any Parliamentary pressured To an appeal so just and reasonable he did not hesitate for a moment in acceding. The noble Lord's engagement had been performed to the letter, in that message of mercy with which Her Majesty strove to heal the wounds of India, after the mutiny. In the Royal Proclamation issued in November, 1858, and shortly afterwards circulated throughout India, the very words of the 87th Clause to which he had referred as the great charter of civil and religious equality for the people of India were incorporated. The language of the Proclamation was—
  "We hold ourselves bound to the Natives of our Indian territories by the same obligations of duty which bind us to all our other subjects; and those obligations, by the blessing of Almighty God, we shall faithfully and conscientiously fulfil."
  Her Majesty continued—
  "We decree that so far as may be, our subjects, of whatever race or creed, may be freely and impartially admitted to those offices in our service the duties of which they may be qualified by their education, ability, and integrity, fully to discharge."
  Such was the solemn confirmation given by the Sovereign, on assuming the Government of Her Indian Empire, to the pledge repeatedly held out by Parliament to the people of that country since the year 1833. It had been given by the Government of Earl Grey in 1833, by that of Earl Aberdeen in 1853. In both cases it had been adopted by Parliament as a part of the solemn compact made in renewing the charter. Finally, it was adopted and announced by the Sovereign Herself on assuming the full and undivided authority of ruling Her 180,000,000 of Indian subjects, constituting the most magnificent Empire in the world. Never was an engagement so solemnly contracted between the Crown, the Legislature, and the People. Yet the petitioners, whose case he stated, were still left, in a position to complain of its nonfulfllment. This statement he was fully prepared to prove. But before doing so he would ask leave to refer to one further authority he had omitted, which would show that the engagements entered into by England with the Natives

  1397
  of India had also been acknowledged by-one of the ablest men who had governed that country, he alluded to Lord Hardinge who in 1844 issued the following wise and liberal minute:—
  "The Governor General having taken into consideration the state of Education in Bengal, and being of opinion that it is desirable to afford it every reasonable encouragement by holding out to those who have taken advantage of the opportunities provided a fair prospect of employment in the public service, not only to reward individual merit but to enable the State to profit largely by the measures taken for public instruction, has resolved, that in every case a preference shall be given to the candidates who shall have been educated in the established institutions, and who shall have distinguished themselves by more than an ordinary amount of merit and attainments,"
  If there was one mode better than another of redeeming these often repeated pledges, it was to be found in the promotion of education, and especially of medical education and science in India. Nothing had done more to remove the prejudices of caste and advance the cause of civilization in India than: the establishment of the Medical College at Calcutta. This was among the many obligations which India owed to that most excellent man, Lord William Bentinck, who so long back as May 30, 1829, had by his minute announced that—
  "The degree to which the Natives have conquered prejudices that without instruction would have been the most inveterate, is shown in the Hindoo College of Dr. Tytler, arid the Medical School of Dr. Breton, in which there are pupils Of high caste said to dissect animals, and even handle the bones of human skeletons."
  The Natives had a remarkable aptitude for medical science, and it was acknowledged by the high authority of the noble Earl opposite (Earl Ellenborough) that Native practitioners were frequently able to save lives that would be lost under the treatment of Europeans, Students of the Medical College at Calcutta came over to this country to mature their instruction, and entered successfully into full competition with their English fellow-students in our Universities and other training establishments; Nineteen of these Native gentlemen now held appointments in India with honour and credit to themselves. No doubt arose in their minds that the obligations which had been incurred by England would be fulfilled; In one instance a Native student who had obtained the second place among forty-two candidates; having completed his medical course here, went to pursue his studies on the Continent,
  1398
  and being anxious to acquire as much knowledge as he could, in addition to his medical and surgical acquirements had made himself master of three European languages. He thought that whilst it was impossible to overrate the importance of the visits of men whose minds had been highly cultivated and matured, as in the case of Dwarkanauth Tajore and Rammohun Roy, the claims of younger students should not be passed over. The education in our best British medical schools of diligent and well-instructed pupils of the Hindoo College, or of students brought up in the Grant and Elphinstone Institutions, men who had distinguished themselves as his Parsee petitioners had done, and who coming amongst us have obtained knowledge and profited by the opportunity of seeing with their own eyes, judging for themselves of all that Was in progress in England, and being thus enabled to report to their Indian brethren the results of their own experience and observation, this was the true way of spreading throughout India not only intellectual acquirements but respect and reverence for our land and its institutions. He alluded to the case in which two excellent friends of his own, Sir Edward Ryan and Mr. Charles Cameron, unfailing advocates of the rights of the Natives of India, had given their high authority to the force and effect of sect. 87, as establishing the eligibility of Natives to civil, military, and medical appointments. Of all the classes in India there was hardly one more interesting in itself, from the character of the race, their great intelligence, diligence, and superior mercantile habits, than the Parsees whose grievances were represented in this petition. Several of these had come over to this country, prepared by scientific education in India for pursuing the medical profession; and after having gone through a regular course of instruction and taken their degrees, passed the College of Surgeons, obtained other marks of honour, they made application to the Army Medical Department to be permitted to compete for admission to the competitive examination as preliminary to an appointment. They then learnt, for the first time, that the army of India had ceased to exist; that only one army now existed—the Queen's army—and that, therefore, there could no longer be a separate examination for Indian appointments, and but one examination for the united services. From the terms of the

  1399
  official letter from the Army Medical Department, the applicants were justified in entertaining the belief that there would be as free an admission to the combined examination, as there had previously been to the separate examination for India.
  "East India Army Surgeons.
  [Circular.]
  "November 14th, 1860.
  "Sir,—I am directed by the Secretary of State for India in Council to acquaint you, in reference to your recent inquiry, that no separate competitive examination for the Indian Medical Service will take place in January next, but that at the next examination for Assistant Surgeons for Her Majesty's Army such additional number of appointments will be open to competition as will be sufficient to provide for the medical service of India also.
  "All candidates at that examination will be subject to the Regulations issued by the War Office with regard to qualifications and examinations.
  "I am, &c,
  "W. E. BAKER, Col."
  It would scarcely have been possible to convey to the Parsee petitioners a more clear intimation that, though the separate examinations had ceased, yet one united examination would be established, and that to such united competitive examination the Natives of India would be freely admitted. But their Lordships would learn with no slight degree of surprise and regret (he might, perhaps, have used a stronger word), that when the time of examination appointed came, the answer obtained was not an admission to that competitive examination, but a statement that, in consequence of the varied climates which medical officers of Her Majesty's army had to encounter in the European and Colonial possessions of the British Crown, it was not thought advisable to subject Natives of India to the chances of service, out of their own country, and that in consequence it had been decided that such Native gentlemen should not be permitted to compete for appointments in the general military service. Here was an exclusion imposed where the statement of Earl Granville; the pledge of the Government contained in the law of the land in 1853; and last, but greatest of all assurances, the declaration given in Her Majesty's Proclamation had created perfect equality and eligibility. This was not all. The disqualification of all persons of Indian birth or parentage effected by Colonel Baker's Circular assigned no reason of policy, still less suggested any incompetency in the applicants. The motive put forward was as strange as the act was indefensible. An af-
  1400
  fectionate regard was forsooth professed for the health of those gentlemen, while depriving them of that which they had a right to expect; and they were invited, as an alternative for service in Europe or our Colonies, to betake themselves to the more inhospitable climate of Africa. This was a whimsical proof of regard for the health of these gentlemen, which he could not very well understand. The answer which these gentlemen returned was that where the law gave them equal eligibility they would not accept a qualified appointment. On their behalf he now took the liberty of claiming what he believed to be their strict legal right. If the law was objectionable, let it be altered; but where the law was clear, let it not be perverted by official prerogative. "Where the obligations of the Crown had been distinctly contracted, let not the administrators of the law take on themselves either to deny the equal rights secured by law, or to intercept the promised favour of the Sovereign. He believed their Lordships felt the deepest regret that the Natives of a distant possession should have so just a cause of complaint. He asked for nothing but what the law, the Ministers of the Crown, and the Sovereign had granted. He felt confident that so just a claim could not be refused. The noble Lord concluded by presenting the Petition, and moving an Address for
  "Copies of all Rules and Regulations in force on the passing of the 21st and 22nd Victoria, Cap. 106, in any respect touching the Nomination or Examination for Medical and Surgical Military and Naval Officers in India; and Copies of any additional Regulations subsequently made on the same Subject under the Section 27 of the said Act:
  "Names of Persons being Natives of India or of mixed Races appointed as Medical or Surgical Officers in the several Presidencies of Bengal, Madras, and Bombay, from the 1st January, 185f, to the present Time; distinguishing the Date of every such Appointment:
  "Copies of any Applications to the Secretary of State for India or Army Medical Department made by Natives of India or of mixed Blood, from the passing of the 21st and 22nd Victoria, Cap. 106, praying for Admission to the competitive Examination for Army Medical Appointments in India, together with all Replies made thereto:
  "Copies of Circular Letter, 14th November, 1860, from the India Office, communicating the Cessation of separate medical competitive Examinations for India."
  LORD HERBERT: My Lords, there will be no objection to give the Correspondence which the noble Lord has moved for. I rejoice even at this late hour that I have an opportunity of answering the speech which the noble Lord has addressed

  1401
  to your Lordships, and in which—whether felicitously or infelicitously I, do not undertake to say—he has confounded two things which are perfectly distinct. The noble Lord ended by saying that the claim of these gentlemen is founded upon law, which gives them a right to all these appointments; but in a previous part of his speech he admitted that the appointments which were promised to Natives of India were appointments in India. The promise was made before the recent transfer of the Government of India to the Crown, and the appointments in question were then in the gift of the Company. The words of the Act are conclusive upon that point, because they express distinctly that the intention was to throw open to all persons, without distinction of creed or colour, "all appointments in the gift of the said Company." Natives of India were not to compete for English appointments—it was "India for the Indians," and the right which they had guaranteed to them by the Act was a right to compete for all appointments of a certain class in India. What do the petitioners now ask? They do not ask for local appointments in India, but they ask for appointments in the general service of the Crown, and they claim to be appointed as surgeons and assistant-surgeons to our Line regiments stationed all over the world. I admit at once and fully the acquirements, the skill, the knowledge, and the high character of these gentlemen. The delicacy of their hand is recognized in operations; but it is said they are deficient in some of the most valuable qualities which characterize the practitioners of this country. What is the business of an army surgeon? It is very different from that of a civil doctor. In the case of an army surgeon everything depends upon the degree of confidence which the men have in his skill. Recollect the men have no choice; they cannot go where they like for medical advice; a surgeon is imposed upon them, and it is of the very first importance that he should be possessed of their confidence. The army surgeon now is in a very different position from what he was when Sir Benjamin Brodie recommended his pupils never to go into the army. For a long time in our service the medical profession was not much regarded, but now we have the best skill which can be found; all the best men are coming to us. What is the result? It is that the recommendations of our army surgeons are treated with the greatest re-
  1402
  spect by our officers, and that the men have that confidence in their skill which is so essential to the success of their services. A doctor cannot cure a man who does not believe in him. The noble Lord may say that science has neither creed nor colour. That is quite true; but we know that Englishmen have not the same confidence in an Italian or a German doctor—to say nothing of an Indian doctor—which they have in an English one. When the petitioners first applied to me I consulted Dr. Gibson, who is at the head of the Army Medical Department, on the subject. He said he thought they were physically incompetent to bear, not the cold of England or the heat of any other country, but the constant vicissitudes and changes of climate to which they would be exposed in our service. I was not content with that. I thought I could not do better than take the opinion of some great authorities. Accordingly, I referred the question to three gentlemen—Dr. Gibson, Director General of the Army Medical Department, Sir John Liddell, Director General of the Naval Medical Department, and Sir R. Martin, a gentleman of great Indian experience. I asked them to go into the whole subject and report to me their joint opinion whether the petitioners were physically qualified to stand the exposure to the various climates in which they would be called upon to serve were they admitted into the medical department of Her Majesty's army. They reported as follows—
  "It is our deliberate opinion, founded on experience, that the Native and mixed race of India and other tropical countries will never be able to sustain, for any length of time, the climate of our Northern regions, and that they can only be employed advantageously to the public service in climates similar to those in which their races exist."
  I thought that conclusive. In the face of such an opinion I could not comply with the request of these gentlemen from India, they having no claim by Act of Parliament for admission into the general service of the Queen. But we have never questioned their right to appointments in India; on the contrary, we have urged their employment in civil, police, and, possibly, military capacities in that country. I noticed that a smile was caused by the reference which the noble Lord made to the proposal of Dr. Gibson, that these gentlemen might be employed on the coast of Africa. Your Lordships have been told that the petititioners refused the offer made to them. They had a perfect right to do so; but I

  1403
  can only say that the appointments in question have since been filled by Englishmen, though the climate of Africa must be more trying to white men than to Indians. I regret that I should have been obliged to come to a decision which has given so much pain to the petitioners; but appointments are open to them in their own country, where, perhaps, they might be employed in many instances with more advantage and success than English practitioners. I object to the insinuation that I have overridden the Act of Parliament. It is my duty to secure the best men I can for Her Majesty's service, and that duty I have endeavoured to discharge to the best of my judgment. I again protest against the assumption that admission to the general service of the Crown was guaranteed to Natives of India by law. The guarantee was confined to India only.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH: My Lords, I confess I cannot understand on what principle a distinction is made in this matter between a Native of India and a native of Canada or Australia. I wish to state my opinion with regard to the general character of the Native doctors of India. While in that country I had an opportunity of seeing them in contrast with European doctors after the battles near Gwalior. Every morning and evening I visited the hospitals, both Native and European, and I must candidly say that I consider the management of the Native hospitals was superior to the management of the European hospitals. And the reason was obvious. In the Native hospitals there was the most perfect ventilation; while in the European there was none. I visited the European hospitals early, long before the doctor, and found the patients almost suffocated with the offensive air and the closeness of the rooms in which they were placed. It was thought that the best had been done for them because they were placed in a bungalow and were treated like gentlemen. The Native troops, on the contrary, were in hospitals as beautiful as those which I saw years ago in Florence, or as any that are to be found now in London. The conduct of the Native doctors was beyond all praise. I never saw men under such circumstances in greater comfort or better taken care of. There every advantage was taken to obtain ventilation. Instead of being in houses they were under canvas, and the best ventilation is that from the air which percolates through the canvas—it is
  1404
  ventilation without a rush of air. During the time I was in India I never needed the service of a doctor; but had I done so, and placed myself under the care of an European practitioner, the chances are that I should not now be addressing your Lordships. The Native doctors would meet the wants of the service if a fair chance is afforded to them. According to the reduced establishment, the Native army will in future consist of 110,000 men, divided into 240 regiments, who would afford ample occupation for 480 Native medical officers, and I am quite sure that they will be, under the general direction of Europeans, infinitely the best persons for the duty, because they know the effect of climate, which Europeans obstinately will never learn. The same thing which in this country would produce no ill effects, there, by the influence of climate, may become fatal, and that the Natives know, while the Europeans will not know it. As to the general employment of Natives, I have, and have always had, two opinions. One is, that every country must primarily be governed for the benefit of its own people; and the other is, that it is impossible to give good government to any country without availing yourself of the services of the people of that country. But, although I know many persons have a different opinion, I must say I think the course which, the Government, urged on by public opinion here, is obstinately pursuing in India in the way of education, must militate against the objects which all have in view. We are persevering in giving the highest education to the lowest class; but we take no pains to reach the higher classes. The consequence will be an over-educated and discontented people, with a body of persons possessed of property whose ignorance would prevent them from giving a useful support to the Government; and that will produce a state of society in which anarchy-will be inevitable and good government impossible. This has always been my opinion. I had intended when I was in India to take measures to promote the education of the higher classes of the Natives. I thought that the promotion of knowledge and civilization by education might descend from the higher classes; but I did not believe, nor do I now, that it could ascend from the lower classes to the higher. I know it is useless to speak this language here, when people are determined to have a certain number of persons, no matter whom, educated in the highest degree;

  1405
  but I am confident such a course involves much mischief and danger, and if it is persevered in, the object which all of us very properly desire to attain—the employment of a large portion of the respectable Native population in the government the country—will become impossible.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, the noble Lord the Secretary for War had stated that the law referred to by the noble Lord who introduced the discussion related solely to employment in India. Was that the answer he gave to the petitioners? According to the law the army was for all parts of Her Majesty's dominions—the answer given to those gentlemen was that no separate competitive examination for the Indian Army was to be field in November. Was that an answer, to their case? What did they apply for? They applied, not for examination for the Indian Army—they applied to be admitted into the military service of the Crown, And the answer was most unfair. Why were they not admitted to the competitive examinations? The law said they were to be open; find were the Natives of India to find that this was a mere juggle, and that they were not to be employed? They were first told that a competitive examination was necessary; and when, they presented themselves they were told they were not to be admitted, And why? On account of their country, colour, caste—on account of matters which they had been distinctly told were not to be taken into consideration. An Indian, whether a Parsee or Hindoo, was not to be permitted to serve the Crown, Here was a population of 150,000,000 of men, some of them of the most warlike tribes; and we were laying down a rule depriving ourselves of the use of their services whenever the wants of the empire might require them—because if the ground of health was set up as a bar to the employment of Natives out of India it affected the services of the whole Indian Army, who, if properly trained, would be available for general service in any future war. The noble Lord stated that the petitioners had refused to go to Africa. They refused nothing. They said they were prepared to go anywhere in the ordinary course, of service, but they objected to be sent specifically to "the white man's grave." As to capacity to bear the variations of climate he thought the noble Earl was inerror, for it was well known that the Persians and Parsees were capable of en-
  1406
  during cold at least as well as Englishmen. He hoped that this matter would be well considered by the Government with a view to the removal of the grounds of those complaints. It was intended by the Act that the Asiatic subjects of Her Majesty should be put on an equality with all others of Her Majesty's subjects; and why should not the Natives of India be placed upon the same footing as the Canadians or inhabitants of other countries? It was absurd to think of governing India in defiance of the feelings or interests of the people.
  EARL DE GREY AND RIPONregretted the tone which the discussion had taken, for there was no act of the Government, whether of the Secretary for India or of the Secretary for War, which could justify the language of the noble Marquess, the was certainly very much surprised that it should be implied that there was any inclination on the part of the Government to deprive the Natives of India of their just claim to employment in the service of the Crown. At the present moment there were two Bills before Parliament making the Natives of India admissible to seats in the Legislative Council and on the Bench. The noble Marquess complained that these gentlemen having applied to be admitted to a competitive examination to the Indian medical service were refused, but the fact was that the examination was not for the Indian medical service, but for the general medical service o-f the Crown.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid it was distinctly stated in the despatches that it was an examination for India.
  EARL DE GREY AND RIPONassured the noble Marquess that he was under a misapprehension; it was not an examination for the Indian medical service, but for the general medical service. Under these circumstances, for the reasons he had stated, the Secretary for War did not think that these gentlemen were eligible. But with respect to their eligibility for other employment in India the case stood just as before. They were equally admissible to the Civil Service, and any Natives who might come home to qualify themselves and win distinction here would be admitted to the covenanted Service just in the same way as any other subjects of the Crown. With regard to the special case of these gentlemen the attention of the Governor General had been directed to it, and it might safely be left in his hands.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid he had confined his remarks entirely to the conduct of the War Office, and his information was taken from a letter signed by Colonel Baker, in which he said—
  "At the next examination for assistants for Her Majesty's Army such additional number of appointments will be open to competition as will be sufficient to provide for the requirements of the service in India."
  EARL DE GREY AND RIPONexplained that since the amalgamation of the two armies the only mode by which a medical officer could get to India was by being admitted to one of the Line regiments, and whether he went to India or not would depend entirely on the requirements of the service. He might be sent there, or he might be sent to Canada, or to the west coast of Africa.
  LORD MONTEAGLEwas glad to find the question referred to the very authority in whom he had most confidence.
  Motion agreed to.
  House adjourned at a quarter past Nine o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.