COMMITTEE (ON RECOMMITMENT). (Hansard, 18 June 1861)

HL Deb 18 June 1861 vol 163 cc1226-32 1226

§ Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee (on Recommitment) read.

§ Moved—That the House do now resolve itself into a Committee.

§ THE EARL OF HARDWICKE
said, their Lordships were about to deal with a great and honourable charity, which was not a fit subject for party discussion, and he now appealed with confidence to the House to rescue that charity from the condition in which it had hitherto stood. Greenwich Hospital had long been used for purposes of Government jobbery by all parties, and it was high time that such a state of things should be put an end to; but this Bill would perpetuate all these evils. The institution was one of such national value and importance that the country generally must feel a deep interest in its proper and efficient management. Its funds, which were very large in amount, were derived from various sources. It had about £3,500,000 sterling invested in Government securities; it had also large landed estates in the north of England; it had mines besides; and a fund of about £500,000 taken from the wages of British seamen. This honoured charity was not a charity only—it had a double claim to public consideration—because it at once offered to seamen a reward for distinguished services and an honourable retreat in which to spend the years which remained to them after an active career. In 1829 the Hospital was found to have been so mismanaged that Parliament interfered with some strong measures to check the evil. The funds had been used by the Government of the day for purposes which it was difficult to-define, and the Ministers suddenly became so alarmed that a Bill of Indem- 1227 nity was brought in to protect them from the legal consequences of their acts. An enactment was also passed re-constituting the government of the Hospital on principles sound enough in themselves, but which had led to serious mischief from the manner in which they had been applied. From 1829 down to 1842 the Governors and managers of the institution were political officers who vacated their appointments with the Ministry of the day. In 1841 Sir Robert Peel attempted, without coming to Parliament for the purpose, to remedy the evil by appointing a Commission to inquire into the management of the Hospital. In that he was assisted by Sir James Graham, who, in the evidence which he gave before the Commission on the subject, said that, as far as his experience went, the checks insituted in 1829 with regard to the safe custody of the monies had proved inefficient; and he spoke of the great misfortune that arose from the circumstances that the governorships were filled up on political considerations, and that the Governors were permitted to have seats in Parliament. The spirit of the Act of 1829 was, no doubt, perfectly pure; but as administered by the Government of the day was corrupt in the extreme. The remedy proposed by the Commission of 1842 was the appointment of naval officers as Commissioners and trustees who were to have the management of the estates and funds of the Hospital, but were to have no part in the management and internal discipline, which was placed under a permanent managing body; and the Commissioners were not to have seats in Parliament. This arrangement had, however, broken down. What was wanted in the present condition of the Hospital was a better system of internal management, and detailed discipline, together with the faithful carrying out of the Act of 1829. He now came to the Bill before the House, and he would ask whether it was likely that it would rescue the Hospital from the position which he had described when it was considered that the measure would hand over the management of the funds, estates, and patronage of the establishment to the Board of Admiralty? The whole management of this great national charity was handed over more than ever to the jurisdiction and administration of the Lords of the Admiralty for the time being, thus rendering its government a political matter, instead of being, as it ought to be, vested in the Crown, or in Commissioners 1228 appointed by the Crown, independent of all exercise of political power whatever. What he would recommend was very simple. He would say that the Crown, naturally having the power, should be authorized by Parliament to appoint a body of independent gentlemen to be Commissioners and trustees, perhaps three in number, to hold the estates and properties of the Hospital; adding, if they liked, two Ministers of the Crown. These Commissioners should be thoroughly independent of any control whatever, and should not be permitted to have seats in Parliament. They should be the managers of the estates and properties belonging to the Hospital, there being also a receiver and a banker; the Admiralty should then come in to deal with the property for the benefit of the Hospital, its whole appointments, details, and discipline being handed over to them. He would, however, separate as much as he could the government of the estates from the political control of any party, except with the consent of Parliament. He hoped their Lordships would deal with this Bill in such a manner as they thought would best secure the interests of the Hospital. He held a strong opinion on the subject, and he must enforce that opinion by a division. For the purpose of raising the question he should move that the Bill be recommitted this day week, in order that the Bill might be amended in the form he proposed.

§ Amendment moved, to leave out ("now") and insert ("this Day Week.")

§ THE DUKE OF SOMERSET
said, that when he understood the noble Earl intended to oppose this Bill, he was curious to learn on what grounds he meant to do so, for it was strictly founded on the Report of the Commission—its whole scope and object was to place the estates and management of Greenwich Hospital on a better and more satisfactory footing, in order that the funds should be applied more effectually to the benefit of the inmates. On the former occasion he stated strong reasons why the Amendment was rejected. He then, from statistics of good authority, compared the cost of the pensioners in the Hôtel des Invalides with those in Greenwich Hospital. The cost of maintaining a pensioner at the Hotel des Invalides in France was £31 16s.; the cost of a pensioner at Greenwich Hospital amounted to £59 6s.—almost double. The cost as to food and care was very much the same in both; the great difference arose on the cost for discipline, administration, and the care of the 1229 sick. In France the cost per head for these purposes was £5 5s.; in Greenwich Hospital it was £28 18s. This alone showed that some change was required. With regard to the management the proprosal of the noble Earl was that the Crown should appoint two or three independent gentlemen, and that they should have the management of the Hospital. That was the very thing the Government proposed to do—they proposed that a Rear Admiral should be appointed for five years, removable at the end of that term; that a Medical Commissioner connected with the navy should be appointed, also removable at the end of five years; and that one civil Commissioner, to act as an accountant, should also be appointed. The appointment of civil Commissioners to be of a more permanent character. This was quite in accordance with the suggestion of Sir James Graham, who said he saw no necessity for more than one Civil Commissioner. There would be no patronage beyond what was now exercised by the Admiralty in the appointments connected with the Hospital and the dockyards. The noble Earl objected to the Commissioners having seats in Parliament. He (the Duke of Somerset) quite agreed that there should not be political appointments, and when he proposed that the Commissioners should be a naval officer, a medical man, and an accountant, he never anticipated their going into Parliament. With regard to the livings belonging to the Hospital, the Act of George IV. appointed the First Lord of the Admiralty patron. It was provided that they should be filled by chaplains in. the navy, and chaplains would be appointed to them hereafter. The nominations to the upper school at Greenwich used to be with the Lords of the Admiralty, and one of the first things he did on coming into office was to give up that patronage, placing the matter in the hands of a very competent body. Examinations were to take place, and candidates were to be selected, according to regulations which were to be laid before Parliament. It had been said the accounts of the Greenwich Hospital estates were not brought under the Audit Office. There was a clause in the Bill which provided for an effective audit, and, as that clause had been drawn up with the assistance of the Accountant General of the Navy, and of Mr. Anderson of the Treasury, he had no doubt it would answer its purpose in every respect. The monies were to be paid 1230 into the Bank of England, the accounts were to be rendered from time to time to the Admiralty, and were to be submitted to the Commissioners for auditing the public accounts. With regard to the general purposes of the Bill, his object was, in the first place, to increase the advantages of the Hospital to seamen. He had already raised the allowance of a certain class of pensioners, and done many other things which he was able to do without an Act of Parliament. But a new Act was required to put the whole establishment on a better footing than heretofore. The existing system of management had not worked well, and he had no doubt that the plan proposed in the Bill would be found a great improvement. He proposed, among other changes, that the subordinate offices connected with the Hospital should be filled by persons appointed for the efficiency of their services, and not from motives of benevolence. More money would then be available for the real objects of the charity. The Bill was founded upon the Report of the Commissioners, though he had thought it inexpedient to adopt the whole of their recommendations. One of their proposals which he had rejected was that arrangements should be made for the accommodation within the Hospital of the wives and families of pensioners. Upon several other points he had not adopted the recommendations of the Commissioners; but he had followed their Report wherever he had found it practicable to do so. He believed that the plan for bringing in fresh men every five years would give life and activity to the management of the Hospital. The present Governor was to be retained, but his administrative duties would be transferred to the new Commissioners. He might still, however, exercise a useful supervision, and communicate with the Admiralty from time to time, The noble Duke concluded by stating his readiness to insert a clause, prohibiting the Commissioners from sitting in Parliament, and to give a careful consideration to any other Amendment which the noble Earl might see fit to propose.

§ THE EARL OF DERBY
said, it was some time since he read the recommendations of the Commissioners in respect to the pensioners of Greenwich Hospital; but so far as his recollection went the alterations recommended did not require an Act of Parliament. They could be introduced by the Governor himself. Undoubtedly there had been for a long while serious mismanage- 1231 ment of the affairs of the Hospital, which could not be remedied without an Act of Parliament. With regard to the last named officer, it appeared to him (the Earl of Derby) to be a singular course to pursue, and contrary to the practice of modern times, to leave the Governor in his high and honourable office, and to deprive him of all interference in the management of the institution.

§ THE DUKE OF SOMERSET
said, that that was a recommendation of the Commissioners.

§ THE EARL OF DERBY
said, it might be so; nevertheless it was contrary to practice to make these appointments mere honorary offices, and to prevent the head of the Department from interfering in the management. But his main object was to call attention to the circumstance that the noble Duke had not drawn a distinction between two subjects totally different—namely, the Hospital and the arrangements connected with it, and the management of the estates which provided funds for the Hospital. He quite agreed with the noble Duke that the management of the Hospital might be conducted by Commissioners acting under the control of the Admiralty, and removable at a certain period of time; but he could not conceive any arrangement so absolutely destructive of good administration as one by which the agent managing an estate should be removed at the end of five years.

§ THE DUKE OF SOMERSET
explained that the estates had been managed for a great many years by a receiver who had brought them to a high degree of improvement; and he never thought of removing him from office. But no person was immortal, and it might be necessary that another should be appointed. The receiver, however, would have to render his accounts as before at the Commissioners, and they would be audited by the Audit Office.

§ THE EARL OF DERBY
said, the explanation of the noble Duke seemed to be that the Commissioners would have the nominal management, but they would have nothing to do with the estates in the hands of the receiver. It appeared to him that the management of the estates should be wholly distinct from the management of the Hospital. Then with regard to the livings, the noble Duke said they had been under the control of the Admiralty for a long period, and that it was desirable that they should so remain. Now he (the Earl of Derby) thought it much better that the 1232 advowsons should be sold and the proceeds carried to the credit of the charity.

§ THE EARL OF HARDWICKE
thought he was quite right in the course he had taken, but would not divide the House upon his proposition. He would remind the noble Duke that according to the charters of 1775 and 1809, it was provided that the management of the Hospital should be under the control of officers who had lost a limb or had been otherwise disabled in active service. And now the noble Duke was preparing a scheme which was precisely contrary to the intentions of the founders.

§ Amendment (by Leave of the House) withdrawn;

§ Then the Original Motion was agreed to;

§ House in Committee accordingly.

§ Clause 12 (Continuation of Office of Governor),

§ THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH
considered that the office of Governor of Greenwich Hospital should be conferred on the ground of great public services; and he objected to making it an honorary employment. It might be honorary, but it was not honourable to place an old officer in such a, situation, giving him nothing but money and a house furnished, and depriving him of all power. He proposed to leave out the words at the end of the 12th Clause, "and shall not take any active part in the management of the Hospital."

§ THE DUKE OF SOMERSET
said, that if the Governor were to take any active part it would unhinge the whole management, and it was, therefore, thought advisable to appoint an officer in whom the Admiralty had confidence, and who could give them an independent opinion, but without conferring on him a power which would clash with that of the Commissioners.

§ THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH
said, that might be avoided if the Government would adopt the suggestion of his noble and gallant Friend, and give the Governor the internal management of the Hospital and that of the estate to the Commissioners.

§ Amendment negatived.

§ Clause was then agreed to without a division.

§ Amendment made; the Report thereof to be received on Friday next.