Lords Sitting of 6 June 1861

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2a Railway Companies Mortgage Transfer (Scotland).
3a Consolidated Fund (£10,000,000).

DEATH OF COUNT CAVOUR.
THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE: My Lords, I wish to call attention to a subject of very great interest. I wish to ask, Whether the Foreign Office has received any intelligence from Italy, confirming
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the melancholy report of the death of Count Cavour? If that melancholy event has really occurred, it is a calamity not to Italy alone, but to all Europe. Count Cavour was a statesman who, whatever opinions may be entertained of his political views, occupied too important a place in the politics of Europe for his death not to be regarded as a great calamity; and those who had the honour and advantage of his personal acquaintance must feel most deeply and painfully on this event. My Lords, if this loss has fallen on Italy and the world, it is one that at the present moment is irreparable. But I am sure he has left behind him a renown for patriotism, for personal disinterestedness, and for an ambition honourably directed, that will survive till the last period in the annals of his country.
LORD WODEHOUSE: I am grieved to say, my Lords, that the report referred to by the noble Marquess of the death of Count Cavour is too true. The Foreign Office has received a despatch from Her Majesty's Minister at Turin, stating that Count Cavour died this morning at seven o'clock. My Lords, it is not for me to pass an eulogium on the character of such a statesman as Count Cavour; I have no doubt that history will do full justice to him as a statesman and a patriot. But I entirely concur with the noble Marquess in the feeling that, whatever differences of opinion there may be among your Lordships—whatever differences of opinion there may be either in or out of this House—as to the policy he pursued, there can be but one opinion that at the present moment, and at the present crisis of Italian affairs, his death must be regarded as a great calamity.
LORD BROUGHAM: My Lords, I also entirely agree with the feeling that has been expressed that, whatever differences of opinion there may be among your Lordships on certain parts of the policy and conduct of Count Cavour, yet no one can doubt he was a man of great talents, of great skill, and that he rendered great services to his own country and the Kingdom of Italy in general. "We must all join in deploring his death as a most calamitous blow to that great cause to which every one wishes well.
THE EARL OF MALMESBURY: My Lords, having at two distinct periods, in consequence of changes in the Government of this country, had to carry an official correspondence and enter into offi-

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cial relations with Count Cavour, I should be sorry if I omitted to refer to the death of one who must be considered a very great man. I entirely agree with my noble Friend opposite that no differences of opinion as to his policy can make any difference in the feelings with which we have heard of the death of Count Cavour. I do not think those differences of opinion have been so great—they were rather differences on points of detail than on principle—as to render such a distinction of feeling on this occasion possible. Whatever they may have been, and whatever they may be hereafter, we must see, from the importance of the events pending in Italy, that the influence of the great minister and statesman who has just departed was of the most essential character. I do not look forward with such apprehension as the noble Marquess has expressed to what may be the results of the death of Count Cavour. We must hope that the Italians, having attained the point at which they have arrived, will continue to show the same resolution and the same prudence in their general conduct that they have hitherto displayed under the guidance of Count Cavour. His memory will be a beacon and an example to them which it is most important they should follow, not only for the sake of their own country, but for that of every country of Europe.
THE MARQUESS OF BATH: My Lords, while we must all regret the fact of any man being removed so suddenly and unexpectedly from this life, and while all your Lordships must deplore the death of Count Cavour as opening Italy again to fresh intrigues and fresh invasions, I am bound to say that, looking at his past history, whatever may have been the objects he had in view, the means by which he strove to obtain those objects, and their results, were certainly such as many of your Lordships cannot approve. He violated every law, human and divine.

TURCO-PERSIAN FRONTIER.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  VISCOUNT STRATFORD DE REDCLIFFEsaid, he agreed with all the noble Lords who had spoken, that whatever might be the differences of opinion as to the policy of Count Cavour, or the means he had adopted to accomplish his objects, his death must be regarded as a great calamity. On one occasion he (Lord Stratford de Redcliffe) had himself called attention, to
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  what appeared to him to furnish matter of criticism in that policy; but at the present moment he should be sorry to allow any feeling to enter his mind inconsistent with the desire to do honour and also to do justice to the memory of so great a man. But his object in rising was chiefly to put: a question to the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs upon a subject of great importance. The matter to which he wished to call attention had its origin about eighteen years ago, when negotiations were on foot with a view to prevent hostilities between Turkey and Persia arising out of the unsettled state of the boundary line between the two countries. England had great interests at stake, and, therefore, proffered her mediation together with that of Russia, which was, after some hesitation accepted. A Commission was sent out, and after a considerable time the matter came to a partial conclusion by the engineer officer, Captain Glascott, who was charged with carrying out the boundary line, being sent to St. Petersburg about three years ago. The reason of that officer being sent to St. Petersburg was that the Russian Government possessed considerable materials that could be useful in carrying out the object in view. He wished to know what was the present state of affairs, and whether there was any hope that in a short time the map which was in course of preparation would be completed?
  LORD WODEHOUSEsaid, the subject had been mooted at the time he had the honour of representing Her Majesty at St. Petersburg. It was true that it had been found convenient to send an officer to that capital because of the nature of the materials in the possession of the Russian Government. A map was in course of preparation, of which he had seen a portion. That map was on an extensive scale, and there was reason to hope that the whole would be completed in the course of the present year. The officer who had been sent to St. Petersburg was even sanguine that it would be completed by August next. When the map was completed the negotiations properly so called would be removed to Constantinople, and with the map in their hands, the representatives of Russia and England, the mediating Powers, would have to consider, with the representatives of Turkey and Persia, the drawing of the boundary line between those two countries which had heretofore been the subject of disputes and difficulties.

RAILWAY COMPANIES MORTGAGE TRANSFER (SCOTLAND) BILL.

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD KINNAIRDmoved the Second Reading of this Bill, the object of which was to enable Railway Companies in Scotland to make transfers of their bonds in an easy, speedy, and economical manner; in fact, to enable them to take advantage of the present law of the land by supplying an omission that occurred in the Act itself.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.
  LORD REDESDALE,upon public grounds—but only on public grounds—objected to the second reading of the Bill. He certainly should concur in the principle of providing an easy mode of effecting transfers of these securities; but he thought the measure, if approved of, should not apply to Scotland alone, but to the whole of the United Kingdom. He objected also that the provision regarding the transfer of railway bonds free from stamp duty on a single payment of treble stamp duty would be seriously prejudicial to the interests of the revenue. He thought that every transfer should be subject to a stamp duty. Under those circumstances he moved that the Bill be read a third time that day six months.
  Amendment moved, to leave out ("now") and insert ("this Day Six months.")
  THE DUKE OF MONTROSEsaid, that he was not before aware that the noble Lord who had just spoken was Chancellor of the Exchequer in that House, or that he undertook to do the duty of that right hon. Gentleman in the House of Lords. The object of the Bill was simply to enable persons having railway securities to transfer those securities without being obliged to have recourse to a deed of transfer, or to employ lawyers and brokers. The Scotch people were anxious for the measure, and he saw no reason why their Lordships should not at once pass it into law without waiting until another Session for an English Bill to be brought in by the Government.
  LORD REDESDALEremarked, that as he understood the Government intended to support the Bill in that House, he should not trouble their Lordships to divide. He had done his duty in calling attention to the measure, and pointing out the loss that would accrue to the revenue.
  Amendment (by Leave of the House) withdrawn.
  Then the Original Motion was agreed to;
  Bill read 2a accordingly; and Committed to a Committee of the whole House on Thursday next.

REFORMATORY SCHOOLS (SCOTLAND)

  BILL.—SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD KINNAIRD,in moving the second reading of this Bill, said its object was to enable the counties of Scotland to establish or to contribute to the reformatories out of certain funds which were now lying in the Bank and which had been accumulating for some years. The Prison Board of Scotland, finding, soon after their establishment that it was necessary to increase the prison accommodation, proceeded to exercise the powers given under the Act and to assess counties for that purpose. It was found, however, that though they had power to assess the counties they had none to apply the assessment to any other purpose than the providing additional prison accommodation. The success of reformatory schools in diminishing crime had shown that to expend money in increasing prison accommodation would be useless outlay. The assessment collected for this purpose was lodged in the bank, and the object of this Bill was to enable the Prison Boards of counties, with the consent of the General Prison Board, to apply those funds towards the establishment of reformatory schools of which there were but three in Scotland, for young persons from the ago of sixteen upwards.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNmoved as an Amendment that the Bill be read a second time that day six months. He thought that in a matter of such importance legislation ought to originate with Her Majesty's Government. The Bill would alter the whole of the Prison Acts of Scotland. Besides, in an Act passed last year power was taken to apply some portion of the county funds for the purpose of reformatories, and, therefore, he thought that this measure was wholly unnecessary. He objected to the appropriation of money raised under the powers of one Act of Parliament to proposes stated in another Act of Parliament. He regarded this Bill as an attempt to take out of the hands of the Commissioners the

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  appropriation of funds originally designed for this purpose alone, and thought an opportunity should be given to the Commissioners of supply and to the borough authorities to have a voice in the matter if these funds were to be laid out as proposed.
  Amendment moved, to leave out ("now") and insert ("this Day Six Months.")
  THE EARL OF EGLINTONwas anxious that there should be reformatory schools all over the country, but he objected to this Bill upon the ground that it was wrong to dispose for one purpose of funds which had been voted for another. The money was got from an assessment for the purpose of building and improving prisons and now it was sought to apply the surplus of this fund to the building of reformatory schools. The second objection to the Bill was that it saddled the counties with the maintenance of reformatories whether they desired it or not.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsupported the Bill. Reformatory schools were intended to serve the purpose of prisons for a particular kind of delinquents, and, therefore, the building of such institutions was a strictly cognate purpose to that for which the prison assessments had been levied. Prison Boards had already the power of laying on a special assessment for the erection of reformatories; and, moreover, they were elected bodies, and not likely to act in opposition to the wishes and interests of their constituencies.
  LORD POLWARTHremarked, that though reformatories were in some sense prisons, yet they were prisons for a totally different purpose than those for which the money was raised.
  THE EARL OF AIRLIEthought that the Bill contained some very objectionable provisions; and he should, therefore, support the Amendment.
  THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH,in addition to other objections, said, he objected that this was a general measure brought with the view of meeting two or three individual cases only.
  On Question, That ("now") stand Part of the Question, their Lordships divided:—Contents 16; Not-Contents 49: Majority 33.
  Resolved in the negative, and Bill to be read 2a, this Day Six Months.
  House adjourned at half-past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.