Lords Sitting of 19 July 1861

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Removal of Irish Poor; Dublin Revising Barristers; Lunatic Asylums (Ireland) Act Continuance; County Cess (Ireland) Act Continuance; Local Government Act Amendment.
2a Drunkenness (Ireland); Landlord and Tenant Law Amendment (Ireland) Act Proceedings; Appropriation of Seats (Sudbury and Saint Albans).

POLAND—PRINCE CZARTORYSKI.

  PETITIONS. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD BROUGHAM presented a Petition from inhabitants of Stockport, praying for the publication of Correspondence with regard to the partition of Poland, which had passed between England, France, and other countries in 1831, 1832, and subsequent years. The petition most justly describes the partition of 1772 as the great-
  1144
  est of public crimes, and destructive of all public law and national rights. The crime was completed twenty years later, and the conduct held towards Poland after the treaties of 1814 and 1815, and in flagrant breach of the engagements then entered into, had increased the claims of that country to the sympathy, and, as far as possible, the support of other nations. It was impossible to utter the name of Poland without reflecting on the irreparable loss which that country had sustained since the noble Earl (the Earl of Harrowby) gave notice of the Motion standing in his name upon the paper for that evening, or without expressing the sorrow which men of all parties, even of that most adverse to Poland, must feel at the death of that great and good man Prince Czartoryski. Having known him for half a century, and been ever on the most intimate terms with him, he would venture to assert that a man of more pure character or of greater virtue, public and private, never breathed. Born to an immense fortune, he had been content of late years to live on the very moderate income which he accidentally possessed independent of the confiscation by the three Powers. In early life he occupied the highest place in the Government of Russia, and was the prime favourite at Court, but never for an hour forgot his duty or abated his affection for his native country. Afterwards he threw himself into the contest which unhappily had no good results for Poland; but he (Lord Brougham) could not help remembering that Mr. Burke pronounced a panegyric on the constitution of Poland which was established after the elective monarchy—the worst form of government in Europe—had been put an end to, and declared that it was the best and most workable of the free constitutions which had ever been established in Europe. Prince Czartoryski, when he lived in Paris, not alone upheld the spirit of Poland, but was the friend and adviser of all who bore relationship or interest to that country. In no particular was the loss of this eminent, accomplished, and virtuous man more to be lamented than on account of the sound and moderate advice which he had constantly given to Polish emigrants, counselling them always to take the course which would most benefit Poland without giving offence to the country in which they had taken refuge. The only consolation remaining to his friends was that, although at an unusually advanced age, he retained to the last his faculties unimpaired, his feelings as warm as

  1145
  ever, the love of his country and hopes for her restoration as strong. This closing scene affords the only consolation of his countrymen and his friends.
  VISCOUNT STRATFORD DE REDCLIFFEsaid, he had been requested to present two petitions on the same subject with regard to which his noble Friend had expressed himself with so much eloquence.

STATUES OF BRUNEL AND LOCKE.

  QUESTION.
  LORD TAUNTONrose to ask his noble Friend the Lord President, Whether it was the intention of the Government to authorize the erection of the Statutes of two late eminent Civil Engineers, Mr. Brunel and Mr. Locke, in St. Margaret's Square, close to the statue of Mr. Canning? He did not desire to disparage the services of those eminent men, or the noble profession to which they belonged, but he doubted the propriety of the juxta-position. The immediate vicinity of the Houses of Parliament might, he thought, be more appropriately reserved for those eminent men who had distinguished themselves in that or the other House, and our experience in Trafalgar Square had shown that the grouping of statues, unless it was carried out in accordance with the architecture of the surrounding buildings, was by no means generally fortunate.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he had been informed by his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Works that he intended to reserve the side of St. Margaret's Square, facing the Houses of Parliament, for the reception of the statues of eminent statesmen; but that it was his intention to permit the statues referred to to be erected on the side facing the Institution of Civil Engineers.
  LORD TAUNTONasked whether a plan or report would be laid before either House of Parliament, or whether any money Vote would be required?
  EARL GRANVILLEthought that there would be no necessity for any Vote of money, but he was sure that his right hon. Friend would not carry out this plan if it was opposed to the general wish.

INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS BILL—INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS (SCOTLAND) BILL.

  REFERRED TO A SELECT COMMITTEE.
  THE EARL OF DERBYwished to make a suggestion which, he thought, would promote the convenience of the House and facilitate the progress of public business.
  1146
  There were two Bills standing upon the paper for committees—namely, the Industrial Schools Bill and the Industrial Schools (Scotland) Bill. From their position upon the paper it was quite possible that neither of them would come on at an early hour of the evening, when they could be discussed satisfactorily. Although both Bills were for precisely similar objects, yet they were not identical as to details. He trusted, under the circumstances, that his noble Friend would see no objection to refer both measures to a Select Committee, when the details could be much better discussed, and would probably not occupy the Committee more than two or three hours of a morning.
  EARL GRANVILLEacquiesced in the suggestion of the noble Earl, considering that the Bills were likely to undergo several Amendments in Committee.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read, and discharged; and Bill referred to a Select Committee.
  The Lords following were named of the Committee:—

  Ld. President.

  E. Carnarvon.

  Ld. Privy Seal.

  L. Petre.

  E. Derby.

  L. Rossie.

  E. Devon.

  L. Portman.

  E. Doncaster.

  L. Egerton.

  E. Airlie.

  ENDOWED CHAPELRIES.—QUESTION.
  VISCOUNT DUNGANNONrose—
  "To call Attention to the Cases of Endowed Chapelries to which Cure of Souls have been annexed from portions of different adjoining Parishes, under the 8th and 9th Vict., c. 70, s, 9, and the 14th and 15th Vict., c. 97, s. 19 and 20, where there at present exist no Means of raising any Rate for the Maintenance of the Fabric or the Services of the Church; and to inquire whether the Government contemplate introducing any short Bill for the Remedy of the same or to refer it to the Consideration of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners?"
  As an instance of the necessity for some legislation upon this subject he would state that there was in the county of Salop, in the diocese of St. Asaph, a chapel called Morton Chapel, which was erected about 130 years ago, and was endowed with lands in Warwickshire. Those lands were found to contain large quantities of minerals, and were sold for a considerable sum under an Act of Parliament, the interest of which formed the endowment of the chapel. Up to the death of the last incumbent Morton Chapel had no cure of souls annexed to it, but attached simply a burial ground. Since then a portion of the parishes of Oswestry and Llanyclwdvel had been annexed to it as a cure of souls; it had thus

  1147
  assumed the character of a parish church, and marriages were solemnized in it. There was, however, no provision for the maintenance of the services or the repair of the fabric. Legal opinions had been taken on the subject, and were to the effect that the parishes of Oswestry and Llanyclwdvel were responsible for those expenses. Those parishes, however, demurred, and refused to contribute. There were, no doubt, many similar cases throughout the country, and the present state of things was a source of great misunderstanding and ill-feeling. The law in such circumstances ought to be clearly and uniformly laid down in a comprehensive measure. He begged to ask the noble Lord, the President of Council, Whether the Government contemplated the introduction of any Bill on the subject, or whether they would refer the matter to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners?
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that it was not the present intention of the Government to introduce any Bill for the removal of the grievances complained of by the noble Viscount. Before any steps were taken in a matter of this kind it was expedient that the Government should consult the right rev. Bench as to the best course to pursue.

  POLAND—MOTION FOR PAPERS.
  THE EARL OF HARROWBYrose to move—
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for, Copies or Extracts of all Correspondence which passed in the Years 1831 and 1832 between the Government of Great Britain and those of Russia and of other Countries on the Subject of Poland."
  The noble Earl proceeded to say that the interest of England in the State of Poland, which had long slumbered, had been awakened by recent events, and people had begun to ask whether the present position of affairs in that country is such as was contemplated by the great Powers who were parties to the Treaty of Vienna. All were aware that at that time the restoration of Poland as a part of the great European system was considered as a matter of the utmost importance by the statesmen of the day. The question was not one of sentiment actuating persons who sympathized with outraged rights and nationalities; but persons who were the last to be suspected of enthusiasm—such statesmen as Lord Castlereagh and Prince Metternich
  1148
  —considered the Polish nation as a most important element in the European system on the practical ground that it was essential that there should be a sufficient barrier between Russia on the one hand and Germany on the other. The feeling on this subject was so intense that, as their Lordships were, no doubt, aware at one time England, France and Austria were so much alarmed at the prospect of Poland falling into the hands of Russia that they bound themselves by a treaty to declare war against Russia in order to prevent such an occurrence. It was only the arrival of Napoleon from Elba that put an end to the discussions of the Powers, and for the time suspended proceedings on the question of Poland. Afterwards, when the Powers saw that it was impossible to establish Poland as an united and independent State, they took the next best means of forming a barrier against Russian aggression by dividing the country between three of the Powers, under peculiar and stringent obligations, which were intended to prevent them from absorbing any of the territory confided to them, and to keep together the severed nationality. It was stipulated that there should be facilities for intercourse and commerce between the various parts of Poland, and provisions were also introduced for the purpose of maintaining national feeling and the enjoyment of national liberty. In one of the treaties on the subject it was specially provided that the Duchy of Warsaw which was to be made over to Russia and erected into a kingdom was to receive a representative and national constitution. The 14th Article of the General Treaty recognized the same principles. Their Lordships would see that this was not a common case of partition, but a case of partition necessitated by the circumstances of Europe, and guaranteed by the other Powers in Congress by special precautions to prevent it from having the effect of destroying Polish nationality. Looking to the provisions which were made by treaty for preserving their nationality, and securing them good government and liberal institutions, and to the assurances which were given at the time that those provisions should be observed, the present condition of Poland could not be the natural and intended result of such a treaty. It might well be asked—where was the constitution? where were the restriction of appointments to natives, the freedom of commerce and navigation, the enjoyment of political liberty and representation which

  1149
  were guaranteed, and upon the faith of which Europe handed over to those Powers their several portions of Poland? The grievances under which the Poles had suffered were inconsistent with the conditions made on their behalf in the Congress of Vienna, and might well excuse or even justify the insurrection of 1830 and 1831. The breaches of engagement of which their rulers had been guilty deprived them of any right to make the insurrection a ground for depriving the Poles of their stipulated liberties, and he, moreover, maintained that the engagements of Vienna was not between the Poles and Russia, so much as between Russia and all the Powers of Europe. The preservation of those liberties was not only an object of interest to the Poles themselves, but of European importance; and, in 1831, when Russia pleaded the insurrection as a discharge from the solemn compact which had been made, England, through her Government, as he had reason to believe, held the same language which he was using now, and said that the guarantees were not to the Poles alone but to Europe, and that Russia was still under obligation to fulfil them. The petitions which he had presented was one evidence of that sympathy that the English people were accustomed to express with any people who were suffering oppression. The burst of national feeling could never be forgotten when the people of this country saw that there was a prospect of the Italians achieving their liberty, even though in the pursuit of it they had to overthrow treaties, instead of appealing to treaties in their behalf. But in the case of Poland these sympathies were not only excited on behalf of a free nation struggling for its natural rights, but they were additionally excited because liberties, which were the natural rights of all men, had been specially chartered to the Poles by Europe, and were, in fact, the title deeds by which alone the country was held in subjection. Poland was not held in subjection by the consent of the inhabitants, or by conquest, or by ancient inheritance, but by treaty; and by treaty alone all other rights were superseded, were abrogated by that transaction. The conditions of that treaty had been violated. All title to continued possession had been fortified. The only remaining title—if title that could be called—was the sword of the stronger. The correspondence which he called for was that which had taken place on the subject of the effect which the insurrection of
  1150
  1831 had or ought to have upon the rights guaranteed by that treaty to Poland. He did not wish to call upon the English Government to renew the protest which he had reason to believe had then been made against the doctrine advanced by Russia, that these rights had been forfeited by the insurrection. But he wished that that protest should now be placed on public record, which it had not been at the time, and that the Russian Government, which had of late shown no inconsiderable sensitiveness to the action of public opinion, and desire to earn a character for itself among the civilized nations of the West, should have an opportunity of learning by the expression of feeling from Members of your Lordships' House the right in which their proceedings in regard to Poland was looked upon by those whom that Government could not but esteem as no mean exponents of the general sentiment. He could not but hope for some good to arise from such an opportunity. The Russian Government would see that these sentiments were entertained not merely by men whom it could afford to treat as revolutionists and enthusiasts, but by experience statesmen, who felt no interest in revolutions, who were no enthusiasts for nationalities, but who had regard for the common interests of humanity, for the maintenance of treaties, and the stability of the European system. He could not but hope for the expression of such opinions for at least some mitigation of the present tyranny. For himself he should, whatever his interest in the subject might be, have, perhaps, hardly broken through the rule still impressed upon him by prudence against taking a part in their Lordships' discussions, but in his desire to gratify the dying wishes of that distinguished man, that venerable patriot, Prince Czartoryski, who had, indeed, since the notice of this Motion had been given, closed a life far protracted beyond the ordinary limits of human existence, a life of the greatest private virtue, of the highest devotion to his country's service, which even the historic rolls of Poland can display, leaving behind him a name upon which the enemies of his country could never affix a stain, but which would remain as a standard, and he (Lord Harrowby) hoped a model, by its moderation as well as by its constancy, to his admiring countrymen. If his spirit be still conscious of human transactions it will be soothed and gratified by their Lordships' interest in the welfare of

  1151
  his country. The noble Earl concluded by moving for the papers.
  LORD WODEHOUSEsaid, that nothing could be more natural than the noble Earl, who had always taken an interest in the Polish people, should have brought this subject before their Lordships, particularly at this moment, when the attention of Europe had been especially directed to Poland by the events which had lately taken place at Warsaw. Though he could not add anything to the statement of the opinions of the Government which had been made in "another place," he felt personally extremely glad to have the opportunity of saying a few words on a subject in which he took a great interest. The destiny of Poland must always be a matter of interest to all Europe, not merely on account of the sympathy excited by her misfortunes and the gallant efforts of her people to recover their independence; but, also, because it was intimately connected with considerations of the greatest importance to the welfare of Europe. The extinction of Poland as an independent Power had perhaps had a greater effect on the general position of the European nations than any other event which had taken place in modern times. On the position of Germany, in particular, it had had a very great effect; because, as any one would immediately perceive by looking at a map, that portion—by far the greatest portion of Poland—which was in the position of Russia, lay like a wedge between the two great German Powers, and what would otherwise have been an outwork of Germany and a bulwark to Western civilization had become an outwork of Russia and a dangerous menace of Germany. This danger was increased by the construction of a system of fortresses in Russian Poland, which in strength and extent was only equalled by the famous Quadrilateral. Practically speaking, he could not but feel that we must regard the resuscitation of Polish independence as impossible, because, whatever might be in store for that nation in future times, at present this was not a question of practical politics. Poland was divided among three very strong States, and whatever efforts the Poles might make to recover their liberty they could scarcely be expected to succeed against such over-whelming force as might be brought against them. For this reason it was a matter of great congratulation to those who felt an interest in Poland to remark the calmness and moderation shown to the Poles during
  1152
  the late events at Warsaw. Their attitude, while it showed that the whole patriotic spirit was yet alive, and as strong as ever, also proved that the events of past years had not failed to teach them political wisdom. He could not help thinking that there was some reason to hope for a better day for Poland from the events which were taking place in Russia itself. His period of service in that country had naturally led him to pay special attention to what was taking place, and it was only due to the Emperor of Russia to say that the measures which he had adopted, and which were likely to lead to a new era in that country, proceeded primarily and principally from himself. The great measure of the emancipation of the serfs—a change in those relations which lay at the bottom of the whole social system of Russia—could not fail to produce great results hereafter. As more liberal ideas spread themselves through that country—and that such would be the case no intelligent Russian would deny—the Russians themselves would find it would be for their interest to allow the Poles greater freedom of action, and to give them those institutions to which they were undoubtedly entitled under the Treaty of Vienna—as the noble Earl would see the English Government maintained in the correspondence to which he had referred, and which there would be no objection to produce as regarded Russia, the other countries being omitted as in the papers moved for in the House of Commons. The vital importance of the Polish question to Russia had, perhaps, scarcely been sufficiently estimated, for we were apt to look upon Poland as merely what was known as the Kingdom of Poland, whereas the Polish provinces belonging to Russia constituted a very large and important part of the Russian Empire. Any one looking at the map would see that if Russia were to part with all the Polish provinces belonging to her she would be reduced to a position of great inferiority in the European system. The old Polish feeling existed—as he had been told by Russians themselves—not merely in Poland, but in those provinces of Russia which had formerly been Polish. While this must make any Russian statesman careful in dealing with this question, no doubt it would be found, when the time came for the Poles to receive those institutions to which they were entitled, that occupying so large a space of territory they would have a great influence on the destinies of the whole empire. Then, though

  1153
  there might be no practical possibility of the restoration of the independence of Poland—a consummation which Russian statesmen would naturally do their best to prevent—yet the day might come when Russian statesmen would find in the Poles themselves a great aid in the increase of civilization, and in the establishment of institutions more in conformity with the general system of Western nations. The question as regarded that portion of Poland which belonged to Prussia was very much affected by the number of Germans in those provinces. He had been told that the increase of the German population in these provinces had been much more rapid since 1815 than that of the Polish population, and that the Germans, including the Jews, were not far from equal to the whole Polish population. He had not the slightest fear that the discussion raised by the noble Earl would lead to any inconvience; on the contrary, such discussions would do good, as showing that, while there was no wish to disturb existing arrangements, we still felt that interest and sympathy for the Poles which their position must naturally excite.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH:My Lords, it is but natural that the noble Earl, who for so long a time had taken so deep an interest in the condition of Poland, should have availed himself of this opportunity of bringing the subject under your Lordship's consideration, and it is a matter of much satisfaction to me that your Lordships should have an opportunity of expressing your opinions upon the question.
  Undoubtedly the present position of affairs in what was once the Duchy of Warsaw is one of deep interest, and likely to affect materially the state of Europe. I have always entertained—as, indeed, I apprehend all those who have the least regard for freedom must entertain—a very strong sympathy with the people of Poland. They have been suffering now for a period of sixty-five years under the wrong inflicted upon their ancestors, and during the whole of that time they have shown grandeur of mind under great adversity. They have at all times under their misfortunes maintained the dignity of their national character. They have made themselves respected even by those who trod them under foot, and, above all, on all occasions, on every field and in every service to which they have been drawn, either by voluntary disposition or compelled by force, they have maintained and extended
  1154
  their military reputation, and have placed it on a par with that of any nation in the world. It is impossible not to respect so great and noble a people. It is to me a subject of astonishment that every Sovereign of Russia should not have laid himself out in endeavours to conciliate them, that he should not have esteemed it amongst his highest privileges to draw his sword at the head of their noble chivalry.
  I speak not merely as the friend of the Poles, but as the friend of Russia. I discard from my mind altogether the memory of our recent misunderstanding. I took only to that long friendship, now happily re-established, which has prevailed between Russia and England for so many years to their mutual advantage. I am old enough, unfortunately, to recollect as if it were yesterday the invasion of Russia by the French in 1812. I recollect the noble self-devotion with which the Russians repelled the invasion of their territory, and the great service which they performed to Europe in the re-establishment of the liberty of nations. I entertain personally for the Emperor, as we all must, the greatest respect, when I consider that he has bestowed upon his people the greatest boon which is recorded in history as bestowed upon subjects by their Sovereign, and I cannot but entertain the hope that the Sovereign who has shown such benevolence for salves will not be insensible to the claims which freemen have upon his consideration.

  My Lords, the situation of Russia at the present moment is one calculated, I think, to excite anxiety in the mind of every statesman who takes a fair view of the state of Europe. The opposition to the Russian Government, which now exists in Poland practically prevents the forward action of Russia—prevents her advance under any circumstances beyond the Vistula — and would make it extremely difficult for her, if attacked, to maintain her position upon that river; while all the country behind her would be in flames and occupied by a hostile force. Practically the action of Russia in Central Europe is paralyzed by her position in reference to Poland. Such a state of things cannot exist without causing very great anxiety. The balance of power in Europe is so extremely delicate that no one of the great States can be temporarily disabled without affecting the position of all. We may view with jealousy the power of France, and perhaps distrust

  1155
  her policy; but if at any time, owing to any unfortunate circumstances, by means of civil commotion and internal disturbances, the action or influence of France were temporarily paralyzed, the injury which would result to the several States of Europe would be greater than any which might be expected to be derived from her aggression in the pursuit of her ambition.
  My Lords, in what manner can Russia re-establish her position and again obtain the means of action? I know no mode in which that can be accomplished save by a frank reconciliation with the Polish people. Nor will I despair of that happy result being attained. I do not despair of it when I look to history and see that great States have had similar dependencies, and have maintained, with mutual satisfaction and advantage, the connection existing between them. I see that in distant times Naples, Lombardy, and Flanders gave their troops, their Generals, their most cordial co-operation, and their most devoted loyalty to the Emperor charles V. And why? Because they enjoyed self-government — because they were happy under his administration—because he loved them as he loved the rest of his subjects—and because when he went among them he appeared as one of themselves. I see that at a more recent period the Hungarians, not only during the early times of Maria Teresa, but down to a late date, supported with devotion the House of Hapsburgh. Why? Because they, too, had then a separate self-government, and their position was rather that of and allied State than of a dependency. The Hungarians contributed to Austria for offensive operations 66,000 men, whose expenses they defrayed. Further assistance was always forthcoming in case of need, and when the enemy approached the frontiers of Hungary every man rushed to arms. Again, I see in the history of this country that the English Sovereigns of Hanover, though generally absent from that kingdom, and though absent altogether during the last sixty years of their reign, could always count on the loyalty of the people, because Hanover was well governed and was treated as an independent country.
  I cannot but think that the application of the same principles to the connection between Russia and Poland would produce the same results. Nations do not changes their character—individuals may; and it is the change in the cha-
  1156
  racter of individuals which, I fear, had effected the difference in the Government of these countries, and has produced the present feelings of the Poles, so different from those existing in the other countries I have mentioned towards their Sovereigns. I do trust, however, that the time will come when Russia will desire to act in a totally different spirit, and that when so acting her advances will be frankly received by the Poles.
  We know that the Romans always considered that their most powerful enemies were those who became their best allies, and why? because those enemies when subdued were well treated. It would be well that Russia should remember this in her treatment of the Poles. Nor let her suppose that a poor people must on account of their poverty be easily kept quiet. It is quite the reverse. There is no position more perilous than that of a Sovereign in the midst of a people which has nothing left to lose but its honour. Poverty is always dangerous. Poverty always desires a change. Poverty conspires. Wealth is quiet. Wealth never conspires. Wealth only requires that things should continue as they are, and that it should retain the advantages which it possesses; and if Russia gives to Poland self-government and the wealth which follows it, I cannot but hope that perfect tranquillity will reign there.
  My Lords, I have said that I hope there will be on the part of the Emperor of Russia a frank offer of friendship to the Polish people. I am sure that in no other manner is it possible for his authority to be re-established amongst them. Generosity emanating from superior power is of all qualities the most influential in the government of a subject people, and never could generosity have a greater effect than when displayed towards this, one of the bravest and most generous of nations.
  In the event of conciliatory propositions being made to the People of Poland, I do trust that they will be received in the spirit in which they are made. The Poles must bear in mind that that which they desire, and which we, too, may desire—the re-establishment of the Polish monarchy,—is an object which it is impossible to attain otherwise than through the disruption of all the States of Europe. A disruption of that character more than fifty years ago brought the first Napoleon to the Vistula. He held out promises to the Poles. He used them. He drew from them their

  1157
  hearts' blood. And he deceived them. Do they hope that under any circumstances which may convulse Europe the France of the present day would act with greater candour and with greater fidelity than the Napoleon who then behaved so faithlessly?
  Had I the opportunity of approaching the Emperor of Russia I should most earnestly counsel him to adopt a policy of clemency and generosity towards the Poles. I should with equal earnestness entreat the Polish people to meet his advances frankly and fairly. But I would caution both that, in whatever engagements may take place between them, the most absolute fidelity must be observed by both. Insincerity is the one crime which can ever be forgiven in a Sovereign. Ingratitude in a people is a crime of no less magnitude—it is one which, committed by the Poles, would deprive them of all the sympathy which they now possess throughout Europe.
  THE EARL OF MALMESBURY:My Lords, although I feel the disadvantage under which every one must labour who follows the noble Earl, I cannot help saying a few words on this subject, even if their only their only effect is to show your Lordships that the feeling which has been evinced in favour of the Poles on the other side of the House is equally sincere on this. Having been for some time concerned in the management of foreign affairs, I should have thought I was hardly discharging my duty if I were not to say how entirely I concur with what has been said on the other side of the House, and more especially with the valuable advice which has just been given by the noble Earl. With regard to the Poles, I would say that, although this is a moment in which they may be grieved, it is one in which they need be disheartened. I would ask them to consider fairly and generously in what a different position they now stand as compared with their position seven or eight years ago. Then they had an absolute Sovereign, whose only idea of maintaining his power was to curb the liberties of his people by the employment of military force. They are now ruled by an Emperor who has done great things for the promotion of liberty—greater than have been attempted by any contemporary Sovereign. Sufficient justice has hardly been done by the public to the Emperor of Russia for the great boon which he has conferred, or is in the course of conferring, to his empire by the liberation of the serfs. It is im-
  1158
  possible to suppose that such a man has not a sense of the advantages of a milder system. And, indeed, I have information on which I believe I may entirely rely, that such are the sentiments of the Emperor of Russia. And he has near him men, in whom he himself places confidence, who are urging him to take they very course on which your Lordships have to-night expressed your opinion. But, as a matter of course, like every other Sovereign in his position, he has also advisers who urge him in the contrary direction. Still, when we know the natural turn of his own mind, and know that some of the most influential councillors around him are disposed to give him the only advice that can tend to strengthen his throne, I think the time is not far removed when a milder rule will be adopted in that country. I should be sorry if anything should be said in this or the other House of Parliament—and nothing has been said—that could encourage the Poles to take a course fatal to their own welfare. There are parties among them who look on the subject in different ways. There is the moderate party, the leader of which was that most respected nobleman Prince Czartoryski, who has just died at Paris, who look only at the improvement of the condition of Poland under the sovereignty of Russia; there is another party whose patriotism goes to the extent of wishing to re-establish an impossible monarchy—a monarchy which was crushed out of existence seventy years ago. But in neither House of Parliament, as far as I have observed what has passed in "another place," has anything been said to encourage any section of the Poles to attempt impossibilities that can only result in bringing them under a more stringent tyranny than that to which they are at present subjected. But there is one thing that no statesman in this country need be afraid boldly to state. It is, that the present rule of the Polish nation is a breach of the Treaty of Vienna. No one can deny, though some may excuse it. But I cannot accept the excuses, because I believe the Polish rebellion of 1830 and 1831 was entirely the result of the most flagrant violation of that treaty, carried out in a most cruel and inexcusable manner. Therefore, while I say nothing can excuse the breach of that treaty by the Emperor Nicholas, neither can anything excuse the present Emperor for continuing to violate it by imposing on the Poles a rule from which the Treaty of Vienna protects them. But I would

  1159
  entreat them to consider at this moment only how they can obtain what that treaty promised them—how they can obtain a constitutional Government such as their fellow-countrymen possess in Prussia, and at once to dismiss from their minds any dreams of reconstructing the Polish monarchy. The attempt would convulse Europe, and could only end in retarding still longer the attainment of those liberties to which they are justly entitled.
  THE MARQUESS OF BREADALBANEwas surprised the noble Earl (the Earl of Ellenborough) should have expressed the sentiment that "wealth never conspires." Was there ever manifested to the world a greater conspiracy of wealth and power than the spoliation of Poland? Was there ever a greater crime committed by power against right than had been committed against that unfortunate country? He believed that wealth conspired as well as poverty; and he should be sorry if, on this occasion, he did not protest in his place in that House against the great political crime of which Poland had been made the victim.
  VISCOUNT STRATFORD DE REDCLIFFEsaid, that the entirely courred in the opinion which had been expressed upon this subject by those noble Lords who had preceded him, and it was not his intention to go at any length over the ground which they had traversed; but having from an early period of his public life felt an interest in this question, he should be sorry to allow the discussion to close without expressing his sentiments. Everybody who was interested in the subject must have been gratified to find that justice had been done on both sides of the House to the character of the Polish nation, and more particularly to the character of that illustrious man who had lately been taken away from the world after a life spent in devotion to the interests of his country under the most adverse circumstances. He had himself had an opportunity in the course of last year of conversing with that illustrious Prince, and all that he had heard from him convinced him of the justice of the view which had been taken of his character and conduct in the course of that discussion. He was very glad to hear his noble Friend opposite (the Earl of Malmesbury) state frankly and fairly his opinion with regard to the breach of the Treaty of Vienna. He believed no one could look at that treaty and compare with its provisions the conduct which had since been pursued towards
  1160
  Poland without feeling that a very serious violation of public law had been effected by the events of 1834, and that those who had been immediately concerned in that transaction owed more to the forbearance of Europe than to the justice and moderation of their own conduct. One result was, that that small but interesting city (Cracow) which was the last refuge of the nationality of Poland, and which the treaty guaranteed should have a free and independent constitution, had become a part of the Austrian Empire. He should say that if the convenience of nations, if the interests of this country and the prudence of the British Parliament, did not permit our taking a more serious notice of those questions, and impose upon us the necessity of adopting corresponding measures, it was, at least, a satisfaction to know that the voice of Europe could be heard in the British Parliament, and that those who had so far succeeded in carrying out their ambitious designs had, at all events, to encounter the reprobation of the British Parliament—a body which more than any other in Europe was entitled to express the opinion of England and of the civilized world.
  LORD TOLBOT DE MALAHIDEsaid, that with what had been said in favour of the rights of Poland he entirely agreed; but he thought some points in the condition of that country had been omitted by the previous speakers. One of the greatest grievances under which the Poles at present suffered had not been at all alluded to£it was the great religious grievance. He had been assured that at the present moment there were nearly 5,000,000 Poles who had been forced to abjure their religion, and adopt—of course, only in appearance—the Greek form of worship. Statesmen must be ill observers of the feeling of the present time if they expected to produce a reformation of public opinion by such means as this. He had also heard that within the last few years there had been attempts to convert all Jewish children to the Christian faith; hundreds and thousands of children had been carried away by force to be baptized and educated in the principles of the Greek Church. Their Lordships had heard a great deal of the Mortara case—a case which, indeed, fully called for their sympathies—many of the Governments of Europe interfered in that case—he should like to know whether the Emperor of Russia interfered also— but for that one instance of this greatest grievance there were hundreds, if not

  1161
  thousands, in Poland. Every one must feel deep sympathy in the great experiment that was now taking place in Russia—one of the most arduous, dangerous, but beneficial changes ever contemplated. He could not suppose that there was any idea of stifling the aspirations of Russian Poland for the acquisition of representative institutions. While wishing well to the Emperor of Russia in the great experiment he was now making, they could not but feel that he would derive the greatest assistance in carrying it to a successful result from having the support of those Polish provinces where serfage had been abolished since 1791. He trusted that they should not hear of papers being circulated by the police among the Polish peasants urging them to rise against their landlords, for such a course would lead to the greatest danger, not only to Russia but also to Europe. Such a ruse had been practised before with the most fatal results. Apprehensions had frequently been felt at the danger that would arise to Europe from a too powerful despotic monarch, but dangers would also arise from an extended system of jacquerie such as they were told had arisen in some Russian provinces. If the Polish provinces were well organized and fairly treated they would feel no sympathy with such a movement, but they would act as a great breakwater to preserve Europe from the flood of dangers arising from the domination of an ignorant and savage peasantry. He was gratified to find on both sides of the House so unanimous a feeling of sympathy with the just claims of Poland.
  THE EARL OF HARROWBYsaid, he would adopt the suggestion of the noble Lord the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and confine his Motion to the Correspondence between Great Britain and Russia.
  Address for Papers, &c., agreed to.

  TRAMWAYS (IRELAND) ACT AMENDMENT BILL.—COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into a Committee, read.
  Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into a committee on the said Bill.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEexpressed a hope that the opposition which had been threatened on a former occasion would not be persevered in. He had received various communications from different parts of Ireland, urging the importance of such a measure, and the bene-
  1162
  fits which it was calculated to confer. It was alleged that the Bill did not contain proper securities as regarded property; but the fact was that under it securities greater than those affecting railway legislation were given, as landowners who might be unwilling or unable to incur the cost of a Parliamentary Opposition would find a sympathizing tribunal in a grand jury, while the whole expense of opposition, including an ultimate appeal to the Privy Council, would not necessitate one twentieth part of the outlay indispensable to attendance before a Parliamentary Committee. The resolution which had been come to to omit a clause in the Bill giving the power to take land would do great injury to the agricultural interest, by preventing the construction of tramways in localities where they would be of advantage to the cultivators of land. Out of that House he had not heard a single objection to the Bill, and he, therefore, recommended their Lordships to reconsider the decision which they had come to.
  VISCOUNT DE VESCIobjected to the measure because it had the effect of diminishing the securities contained in the Bill of last year. If the scheme for a tramway happened to enlist the support of the High Sheriff, by whom grand juries were convened, it might be passed in spite of remonstrances and arguments, however reasonable.
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, that the clause which the noble Marquess complained had been struck out on a former occasion was a clause which enabled parties to take land by compulsion anywhere they pleased, instead of being subject to the limits provided in the former Act. The limitation was inserted in the former Act upon this principle, that if land was allowed to be taken anywhere through the medium of grand juries for tramways, why should not the same principle be applied in the case of railways—a far preferable and much more important mode of communication? He did not say that Parliament was the best tribunal for railway companies to go to in order to obtain the powers required for the making of their lines, and he should be glad if a better could be found; but, what he contended was that they ought not to give in a Bill like this powers which were denied for other and more desirable purposes. He considered that the provisions of the Bill were opposed to the interest of the country and objectionable in every respect, but he

  1163
  hoped that alterations might be suggested which would make it a working measure.
  THE EARL OF LUCANhoped that in legislating for Ireland in this matter their Lordships would act upon the same principles that they acted upon in regard to England, and if they did that, he felt confident that the greater part, if not the whole, of these clauses would be materially altered.
  VISCOUNT LIFFORDthought that the institution of turnpike roads might have been opposed 200 or 300 years ago upon the same ground as this Bill was now opposed, and he hoped that their Lordships would not object to allow of the formation of a few tramways in Ireland. The Bill asked no more than the same power for making tramways as was given to grand juries for the making of ordinary roads.
  THE MARQUESS OF BATHsaid, it appeared to him that this was a cheap way to obtain a railway. He should not oppose going into Committee, but he hoped that their Lordships would seriously consider the provisions of the measure.
  THE EARL OF WICKLOWsaid, though the Bill was intended to give power to make tramways, nevertheless, it provided that in the event of any person having a locus standi, coming to Parliament against a particular tramway, it would be necessary to have a special Act of Parliament to establish such tramway. He did not think there was any objectionable feature in the Bill.
  Motion agreed to.
  House in Committee accordingly.
  Clause 1 agreed to.
  Clause 2 (One Approval by Grand Jury to be sufficient).
  THE EARL OF LUCANmoved the omission of the clause, as it did not give the securities which he deemed requisite.
  On Question, whether the said Clause shall stand part of the Bill?
  Their Lordships divided:—Contents 20; Not-Contents 16: Majority 4.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clauses 3 to 6 agreed to.
  Clause 7 (Inquiry before Board of Works to be confined to Engineering Question).
  VISCOUNT DE VESCImoved the rejection of the clause, on the ground that it limited the inquiry to the Board of Works, instead of carrying it before jurors.
  On Question, whether the said clause shall stand part of the Bill?
  Their Lordships divided:—Contents 24; Not-Contents 14: Majority 10.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clause 8 struck out.
  Further Amendments made.
  The Report of the Amendments to be received on Monday next.

TRAMWAYS (SCOTLAND) BILL.

  COMMITTEE.
  House in committee (according to Order).
  THE MARQUESS OF BATHwished to draw attention to the difference between this and the last Bill. The present was wholly permissive, and did not contain a single clause giving power to take land.
  VISCOUNT DUNGANNONwas also struck with the contrast between the two measures. The Irish one he regarded as a most injurious and, indeed, iniquitous Bill.
  Amendments made; the Report thereof to be received on Tuesday next.

  COUNTY SURVEYORS, &c., (IRELAND) BILL.—COMMITTEE.
  House in committee (according to Order).
  Clause 6 (Grand Jury may, on Increase of Salary to County Surveyor, require that he shall not engage in private Practice).
  VISCOUNT LIFFORDsuggested that the words "having his usual residence in such county," ought to be inserted.
  THE EARL OF ST. GERMANSsaid, that he had consulted with his right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary on this point, and that it was not considered necessary to insert such a provision.
  THE EARL OF BELMORE:I wish to call the attention of the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of St. Germans) to one point in this clause. The clause provides that in case a grand jury shall have decided to increase the salary of a country surveyor, they may stipulate that he shall not engage in any private professional practice. Now, with regard to private practice, I do not wish to say anything; but I think it very undesirable that a county surveyor should, as happened in case which came under my own notice, attach himself as engineer to a railway running through the county, and thus bring the duties which devolve on him, as relating to the public roads, to clash with other duties relating to the railway which crosses those roads.
  THE EARL OF ST. GERMANS:If the noble Earl will look into the Bill he will find that the grand jury are enabled for the future to make any stipulation they may think necessary with the county surveyor.
  THE EARL OF BELMORE:Yes, if they have decided on increasing his salary.
  THE EARL OF ST. GERMANSsaid, that the Bill provided that an increase or pay, of on the occasion of any future appointment of a county surveyor, the grand jury would be empowered to fix the amount of his salary and make any conditions with him they pleased.
  VISCOUNT DUNGANNONwas under stood to say that he was able to state that county surveyors did largely engage in private professional practice, both in connection with railways and otherwise.
  Amendments made; the Report thereof to be received on Tuesday next.
  House adjourned at Half-past Eight o'clock till Monday next, Twelve o'clock.