HL Deb 18 July 1861 vol 164 cc1064-70

Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.

EARL DE GREY AND RIPON

rose to move the second reading of this Bill, which, he said, was the last of the series of Bills relating to India which the Government had submitted to Parliament this Session. The first object of the Bill was to confirm a number of appointments which had during a long space of time been made by the Government of India, but upon the legality of which great doubts had been cast. By an Act passed in 1783 covenanted Civil Servants alone were to be appointed to posts in India; but, as the limits of our Indian Empire were extended, and the demand upon the covenanted service increased, the number of Civil Servants was found inadequate, and other persons were appointed. Various attempts were made to justify the proceeding. It was held that in non-regulation provinces, which had been added since 1793, the provisions of the Act of that year did not apply. It was also held that, provided an appointment was not eo nomine in existence in 1793, the restrictions of the Act did not apply. To meet the case, it happened frequently that offices were abolished and re-created under a different name, in order to enable uncovenanted servants to be appointed. Thus, an assistant-collector was changed into a deputy-collector. Under the Act of 1793 the postmaster and other officers should be members of the guaranteed service, and even the Military Secretary ought to be not a military man but a covenanted Civil Servant. In consequence of some doubt which arose with regard to an appointment in Bengal, Lord Stanley, who was then at the head of the Indian Administration in this country, caused the opinion of the law officers of the Crown to be taken, and their decision rendered it perfectly clear that under the Act of 1793 not merely the appointment of military men to civil offices, but, likewise, the appointment of Natives to such offices as that of Principal Sudder Ameen was altogether illegal. It was consequently manifest not only that steps ought to be taken to legalize the appointments already made, but that the powers of the Governor General for the future ought to be clearly defined. No one could desire that military men should be excluded from civil and political appointments, which they had filled in various parts of India with the greatest advantage to the public service; or, on the other hand, that certain appointments should be closed against the Natives of India. The object of the Bill, was, consequently, to legalize appointments which had already been made, and to provide that, in future, particular duties might be performed by members either of the covenanted or uncovenanted service. But when such a serious alteration was made in the law of 1793 a question naturally arose as to the position of the Civil Servants. He need not detain their Lordships by dilating on the claims of these public officers, nor by expressing his admiration of the great services which they had rendered since India was first brought under the rule of this country. The Indian Civil Service had produced men of the highest eminence in all the branches of statesmanship, who had done honour not only to India but to England also. It was, consequently, the absolute duty of the Government, when interfering with the law of 1793, to determine the position in which Civil Servants would in future be placed. In deference to representations made by the Civil Servants, the Secretary of State for India had introduced into the Bill a schedule of offices which to be reserved exclusively for Civil Servants, except in cases where the Governor General, for special reasons, felt it advisable to appoint some person outside their number, and in those instances the appointments were to be only temporary till they obtained the approval of the Secretary of State at a meeting called to consider the appointment. That such an exceptional power ought to exist was shown by the case of Colonel Durand, of whose political experience, and great knowledge of the Natives Lord Canning would have been unable to avail himself under a strict interpretation of the Act of 1793. Sufficient cheeks were imposed upon those appointments by the fact that a residence of seven years in India was necessary as a qualification, and that the persons selected would be required to possess an acquaintance with the Native languages. The Bill in its present shape had obtained the approval of the representatives of the Civil Service, having been altered in accordance with their suggestions, and received the unanimous support in "another place" of Members of both political parties. He, therefore, trusted their Lordships would not object to its being read a second time.

Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.

THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH

said, every Governor General desired to have the most absolute freedom of selection in filling up the offices at his disposal, and would, no doubt, rather exercise the powers given by the Bill than content himself with those which he possessed under the existing law. But, whatever political advantages might be derived from the measure, he did not think it was just. It was directly in contravention of Parliamentary pledges; it interfered with Parliamentary right, and, unless the Members of the Civil Service were content to waive their privileges, Parliament should continue to extend to them all the advantages they at present possessed. No acts of illegality committed by successive Governors General could in any manner detract from offices. He doubted whether the supposed benefits would result from this Bill, and whether the moment Civil Servants ceased to enjoy the exclusive possession of office in India the same disposition would continue on the part of the people of this country to offer themselves as candidates for that service. If the effect of this new law were materially to diminish the number and to lower the qualifications of persons desirous to fill situations in India, very great mischief would be done. Gentlemen who came off second best at the very strict examinations in this country would set off to India and endeavour to get in at the back door, having failed to get in at the front. Having lived through the prescribed term of years—and with their qualifications they would have no difficulty in obtaining employment in the interval—there was nothing to prevent them from obtaining office, and, perhaps, from distancing in the public service those gentlemen who at the competitive examinations had obtained a greater number of marks. The noble Earl had spoken of the securities provided under the Bill against any impropriety of conduct on the part of the Governor General in appointing persons on special grounds; but he should wish to be informed what security existed against improper appointments in the non-regulation provinces. He looked with extreme regret on what he regarded as steps towards the lowering, if not the extinction and supersession of the Civil Service, in which he recognized a body of independent English gentlemen of honour and integrity; and he doubted extremely whether, under any altered system which might be devised, public officers equally distinguished and equally capable of carrying on the government of India would be obtained.

LORD LYVEDEN

observed that the explanation which the noble Lord gave of the objects of the Bill to legalize appointments hitherto made of doubtful legality, and to a certain extent to open the service to uncovenanted servants, was a correct description of the measure as it was first introduced; but it had been materially altered in the House of Commons. Objections were urged to the Bill in its original from that the uncovenanted servant was not subjected to the same tests upon entering the service as the covenanted servants, and also that they were not prohibited from receiving bribes and taking presents, which for the sake of the purity and morality of the service ought to be the case, especially if these appointments were thrown open to them. The Secretary of State had some private conference with those who advanced these objections, and the result had been a complete alteration of the Bill, making the covenanted service even closer than it was at present. The schedule which had been inserted was proposed so late in the passage of the Bill that it had not received due attention in the other House, and it required a great deal of examination before it should be permitted to become law. When they came into Committee he should propose to strike out the second clause and the schedule, and the thought that there would be ample protection remaining for the covenanted servants. The Civil Service was, as every one knew, a very eminent body, but he did not think that on that account the Governor General should, in all cases, be bound to appoint persons belonging to that body when a person better fitted for the vacant office was to be found elsewhere. In this Bill there was no sort of sanction or authority given for the appointment of Natives; the consequence of this would be to place them further than ever from employment. If it was intended to exclude them it would be fairer and franker to say so at once. If not, why were not offices selected for competition at Calcutta whereby they might be admitted? they were not even named in it. But what he objected to in the Bill was its complete alteration without any reason being assigned, and he hoped that it would yet be restored to its original shape.

THE DUKE OF ARGYLL

said, that this Bill was opposed by two noble Lords on opposite and contradictory grounds. The noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Ellenborough) alleging that the Bill was unjust because it opened the Civil Service of India, and his noble Friend behind him (Lord Lyveden) objecting that it rendered that service more close. Neither of these objections, however, was well founded. In the first sentence of his speech the noble Earl said that it would be an advantage to the Governor General to be able to appoint any person he pleased to any office which might be vacant. If that were so, then he could not admit that there was in any body of men a vested right which could preclude Parliament from giving to the Governor General as much of that power as it thought it safe to vest in his hands. The original object of making the Civil Service close was to protect the patronage of the Directors against the interference of the Governor General. Now, however, our object was to secure for the Civil Service in India the greatest number of the best men that could be got. The admission to that service was not obtained by competition, and, although he was not prepared to maintain that that system was a perfect one, yet he had always been of opinion that it was much superior to the old plan of patronage. It was surely important that, if the Governor General found one Civil Servant more competent for an office than another, he should be able to appoint him to it; and if there was a gentleman in India not in the public service who was competent to the conduct of public affairs it was certainly for the advantage of the public that he should be placed in an office where his talents might be employed. This Bill was undoubtedly a compromise between the principles of his two noble Friends, one of whom looked upon the Civil Service as a vested interest, and the other thought that the service, to a great extent, should be open. It left the Governor General as free as he was in practice, and more free than he was by law, to appoint to offices persons not belonging to the Civil Service. At present he was not by law entitled to appoint any person not a member of the Civil Service to many offices, but practically he exercised that power. It was now provided that Civil Servants should have the first claim if fit men were to be found in the service, but in default of finding such persons the Governor General was empowered to appoint the fit persons. As to the history of this Bill, it was true that the schedule referred to had been introduced to meet the objections of the Civil Servants in this country; but all that it provided was that the offices mentioned in it the Civil Servants should have the first claim. The Governor General might, however, appoint even to those offices persons not connected with the covenanted service, provided he could show to the Government at home sufficient reasons for the appointments, and the Government approved of them.

THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE

believed that no Governor General could carry on the Government in strict conformity with the Act of 1793, for it was impossible that the members of the covenanted service should fill all the offices under the Government of India. He understood that not only had Lord Dalhousie and Lord Canning applied for military officers to fill what were really civil offices, but the commander of the forces in India had been obliged to refuse the number Lord Canning required. So far, therefore, as the Bill opened up the service he cordially approved of it. He was, however, disposed to move an Amendment in Committee, with the view of restoring the Bill to its original shape, so far as it referred to the duration of residence in India and required to entitle a person to be employed by the Governor General. He would propose that instead of seven years the period of time in India should be five years, which, he thought, would be quite long enough. He had, however, a more serious complaint to make against the insufficiency of the Bill. He thought that they had rather debarred than assisted the Natives entering into the Government service by this measure. There had been Parliamentary as well as Ministerial promises given from time to time to the Natives that they should be advanced to greater employment in the service of the Indian Government. The pledge had never been redeemed. It was mere mockery to tell the Natives that they might come over to this country and undergo an examination for Government offices. He submitted that public examinations should be opened in India for Natives, and that when they had qualified themselves by passing those examinations they should be eligible at once for employment by the Government in almost any office. It was not right, nor safe, nor honourable to palter any further with this question.

Motion agreed to.

Bill read 2a accordingly.

THE EARL OF DERBY

asked upon what day it was proposed to go into Committee on the two Bills? There was still a good deal of business before the House. He should certainly think it would be better to refer those Bills to a Select Committee of their Lordships' House; but, at this advanced stage of the Session, there might be some risk of losing the Bills altogether by such a course. At the same time, considering what had passed that night in reference to them, it was obvious that the details required mature consideration. As it was likely that many Amendments would be proposed it was desirable that the Committee should be appointed for such an hour in the evening when the attendance of Members of their Lordships' House would be more numerous than it was at present, rather than to bring on the discussion at such a time when the Ministerial side of the House would be represented by seven or eight Members, and the opposite side by only, perhaps, two or three.

EARL GRANVILLE

proposed to take the Committee on both Bills on Thursday.

Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.