§ LORD TALBOT DE MALAHIDErose, according to notice, to call their Lordships' attention to the present state of the law of Treasure Trove. The noble Lord said, that in Roman times there was a conflict between the right of the finder derived form the maxim of quod sit nullius fit occupantes and that of the owner of the land in which they are found, under what was designated thejus accessions. A decree of the Emperor Hadrian divided the value between the finder and the owner of the land. In feudal times a new principle was introduced quod sit nullius fit domini Regis. This law was generally introduced into Scotland, and under it any moveable article, the original owner of which cannot be discovered, belongs to the Crown. In England, on the Contrary, and Ireland, the Crown only claims gold and silver, coin, or bullion. In this country. indeed, the right of the Crown had been subjected to many restrictions. Nevertheless, such property did not belong to the finder, but was claimed by various persons to whom the right had been granted by the Crown; and the consequence was that any articles of value discovered were immediately concealed and destroyed for 847 merely their intrinsic value, and articles of great interest in an historical and antiquarian view were irretrievably lost. Of late Years a more enlightened view prevailed, and Denmark had the merit of having set the example of attempting to preserve all such interesting relics. There every person was compelled by very stringent laws to give up all treasure trove, but, at the same time, provision was made that a liberal compensation should be made to those who gave them up to the authorities. The law of treasure trove in England, Ireland, and Scotland, equally tended to the concealment of such discoveries, and many articles of the greatest value had found their way to the melting-pot. It was, however, of great importance to preserve ancient articles of gold and silver which were constantly turning up, because they threw great light upon the arts, the manufactures, and the civilization of past ages. Some years ago several most valuable silver ornaments were found at Largo, in Scotland, upon the property of Mr. Dundas of Arnistoun, and were preserved; but there was no doubt that, owing to the defective state of the law, numerous other articles which were found at the same time found their way to the melting-pot. At Corbridge, in North-umberland, there was found a large silver plate, which was now exhibited in the museum at Alnwick. In Ireland there had been a great many finds both of coins and of ornaments and other articles formed of the precious metals; and much of the treasure so discovered had been melted down. A collection of such articles was at one time formed by Colonel William Barton Cunningham, but that collection had disappeared. About fifty years ago a poor man disposed of a collection of bracelets to a silversmith in Skinner's Row, Dublin, and, although great exertions were made to obtain them for preservation, they proved entirely futile. The evils of the existing state of things were not confined to Great Britain; they had also been experienced abroad, and in some countries measures had been adopted to remove them. In Denmark a short time since notice was given by the Government that fair compensation would be paid for treasure trove, and that penalties would be rigidly enforced against those who did not surrender it to the Crown; and the adoption of this course had led to the preservation of many interesting and valuable relics. I understand that already the question has been 848 settled in Scotland. The King and Queen's Remembrancer for that country having issued a notice that he would give full value for any ancient article found in that country. During the first administration of the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Derby) I presented a memorial to the Lords of the Treasury on the Subject at the request of the Archaeological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, of which I have the honour to be the President, and other learned bodies, but for the short duration of the Government, there was no possibility of anything being done. I presented a similar memorial to the Treasury during the present Administration, but never received any answer whatever to my application. A communication, however, was made through the Lord Lieutenant to the Royal Irish Academy stating that the Lords of the Treasury are willing to allow fair compensation to the finders of any ancient articles of gold or silver, and repeating their advice as to the proper machinery to be adopted. I believe it has been ultimately arranged to use the instrumentality of the police, which has been found so useful for agricultural statistics. My memorial applied to England as much as to Ireland, but I have not been able to ascertain that any answer has been given either to the noble Earl, President of the Society of Antiquaries, or any other of the English societies. Three years ago I prepared a Bill for the Purpose of settling this question with reference to England and Ireland as far as Crown rights were concerned. The Bill was by the meeting of your Lordships read a first time, but I did not proceed to a second reading, as I felt the great technical difficulties connected with the subject, both for its partaking of the character of a Money Bill, and also form the opposition likely to be encountered form private parties who enjoyed grants from the Crown. My object is not to cast any reflection upon any individual or public department, but to ascertain, and give publicity to the course which the Government are prepared to follow in England, as well as Ireland and Scotland, and thoroughly to ventilate the subject. He moved for Copies of Memorials presented to the Lords of the Treasury from any Societies or private Individuals.
Copies of any Circulars issued by the Queen's and Lord Treasurer's Chief Remembrancer of Scotland, the Chief Secretary of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, or the Secretary of the Home Department, on the Subject of Treasure trove.
849 Copy of any Treasury Minute on the Subject of Treasure trove.
THE LORD CHANCELLORadmitted that the subject to which the noble Lord had called attention was one of very considerable interest, but at the same time of great difficulty. The great difficulty of legislating in regard to it arose from the fact that this particular prerogative right to the Crown had been made the subject informer times of a variety of grants, and, although the crown might be willing to forego its own right, any interference with the privileges of the grantees would expose the public purse to claims for compensation. It was manifest, therefore, that great caution was required in dealing with it. He fully admitted that the present state of the law was very unsatisfactory, because it offered a temptation to the finders of valuable relics to conceal the discovery and to melt down the articles. Owing, however, to the difficulty he had mentioned, he did not see his way at present to any amendment of the law; and he was not aware that any steps had been taken by the Government in the matter. He had no objection to the Motion of the noble Lord, and would himself take the opportunity of investigating the subject. If he found that anything further could with propriety be done, he would bring it before the Government.
§ LORD TALBOT DE MALAHIDEwished to explain that he was afraid the noble and learned Lord had some what mistaken the exact meaning of his Motion. He had no desire to interfere with any private rights, but merely to ascertain what steps the Crown was prepared to take in these cases where had been no grant of its prerogative to any one.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid that, speaking not on behalf of the Government, he rose to thank his noble Friend for having brought this subject forward. It was a fact within his own knowledge that many valuable and interesting relics were now consigned to the melting pot, owing to the existing state of the law. The laws of England and Scotland in regard to treasure-trove were different; in England treasure-trove sometimes appertained to the Crown, and sometimes to the Lord of the Manor; whereas in Scotland it always appertained to the Crown. In many cases in Scotland where gold and silver and other ornaments had been found, the finders would have been willing to give them up to their landlords in whom they felt an 850 interest, and form whom they would expect some small acknowledgment; but they were not so willing to give them up to the Crown, that is to say, to the general public. Owing, however, to the exertions of the archaeological societies in Edinburgh, Ireland, and elsewhere, an important change had taken place form the announcement that in cases of discovery of treasure, the Crown would, in all cases, give full value for them. He happened to be cognizant of these facts—particularly form the circumstance of a large number of ornaments having been recently discovered in the Island of Iona.
§ Motion agreed to.