Lords Sitting of 15 July 1861

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1 White Herring Fishery (Scotland); Vaccination; County Voters (Scotland); University Elections.
3a Poor Assessments (Scotland).

JUDICIAL ADMINISTRATION (INDIA).

  PETITION.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH presented a Petition from members of the Anglo-India Protective Association, and others, resident in the North Western Provinces of India, the Punjab, Scinde, Rajpootana, and Central India, praying for Amendment of the East India (High Court of Judicature) Bill. The noble Earl said that the object the petitioners sought to secure was, in short, that in all criminal cases Europeans should be tried only by European Judges; and he begged to add his opinion that, in order to secure substantial justice, it would be better that their prayer should be acceded to. The late Duke of Wellington was in favour of such an arrangement, not that he apprehended that Europeans were more likely to be convicted before Native Judges; quite the contrary—he thought that they were more likely to be acquitted, for he thought that a Native would never have the courage to sentence an European to death. That might be the case formerly, but he was much inclined to think that since the mutiny, whether from a feeling of malice, or from some other reason operating upon the mind of a Native Judge, Europeans were not likely to receive a fair trial at his hands. But he was not equally favourable to their next demand—the Europeans should be tried before a single European Judge. He thought it highly desirable that in criminal cases there should be always two Judges, and that if legal gentlemen were to be sent out from this country to India as Judges, each of them should have sitting beside him an educated civil servant who understood the people, who was acquainted with their language, and who knew the law; for he was disposed to think that in most cases the English Judge would not know any one of the three. The petitioners further prayed that in all criminal cases, if the accused desired it, there should be a jury composed altogether of Europeans. He (the Earl of Ellenborough) thought there would be a practical difficulty in effecting

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  this arrangement, for there were very few places indeed in India where it would be possible to obtain a jury composed altogether of Europeans. At any rate they should have the right to be tried by as many of their own countrymen as could be procured. It was, however, his opinion, that if there were good Judges appointed, the parties concerned would be more likely to secure evenhanded justice at their hands than by the intervention of a jury. Further, the Petitioners prayed that in all cases those legal proceedings should be conducted in the English language. There was an axiom in this country which it would be desirable to have affirmed in India—namely, that both sides should be heard before a decision was pronounced. It was, therefore, desirable, before they determined that in all criminal cases of this kind the English language should be used, to ascertain how far the Natives, those for whom these establishments were principally created, were likely to assent to such an arrangement—how far they would be satisfied that the proceedings should be carried on in a language of which they did not understand one word. He could not see how the administration of justice could be respected if it were not made intelligible. The noble Earl then presented a second Petition form the Central Committee of the Anglo-Indian Protection Society. Those Gentlemen, in the first instance, objected to an arrangement made by the Secretary of State for India with the Mysore Princes, by which they had given to them a quantity of stock in lieu of annuities secured to them by treaties, alleging that by such an arrangement the Secretary of State overruled the decision come to by the Governor General and the late Mr. Wilson, and that they (the petitioners) had not been furnished with the necessary information on the subject. What had surprised him in this transaction was that the Princes should have been induced to enter into an arrangement that was so extremely prejudicial to themselves. He could only account for it from the supposition that the Mysore Princes were under the impression, as he himself was, that the transaction was not a valid one—that they had no power to bind their successors, that they themselves might take the stock, but that their successors would be entitled to the annuity. The petitioners also objected to the many charges thrown upon India without due investigation, or without any power on
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  the part of the people or India to make representations on the subject, especially as regarded certain military charges, to which they might think India should not be made liable. He did not possess the knowledge requisite to enable him to enter into this question; but he must say it was the most solemn duty of the Secretary of State for India and his Council to see carried out in their strictest terms the provisions of the Act of Parliament, and that no charge should be placed on the Indian revenues which ought to be placed on those of England. The petitioners stated it was but absolute justice they desired when they asked that India should be placed in the position of a colony; that no charge should be thrown upon it without its consent; they also prayed that the Members of the Council of India should be permitted to sit in Parliament; that there should be a portion of the Indian Council consist of unofficial members. In short, as it appeared to him, it was insisted that in all financial matters the quasi independence of India should be established.

TREASURE TROVE.

  MOTION FOR PAPERS.
  LORD TALBOT DE MALAHIDErose, according to notice, to call their Lordships' attention to the present state of the law of Treasure Trove. The noble Lord said, that in Roman times there was a conflict between the right of the finder derived form the maxim of quod sit nullius fit occupantes and that of the owner of the land in which they are found, under what was designated the jus accessions. A decree of the Emperor Hadrian divided the value between the finder and the owner of the land. In feudal times a new principle was introduced quod sit nullius fit domini Regis. This law was generally introduced into Scotland, and under it any moveable article, the original owner of which cannot be discovered, belongs to the Crown. In England, on the Contrary, and Ireland, the Crown only claims gold and silver, coin, or bullion. In this country. indeed, the right of the Crown had been subjected to many restrictions. Nevertheless, such property did not belong to the finder, but was claimed by various persons to whom the right had been granted by the Crown; and the consequence was that any articles of value discovered were immediately concealed and destroyed for

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  merely their intrinsic value, and articles of great interest in an historical and antiquarian view were irretrievably lost. Of late Years a more enlightened view prevailed, and Denmark had the merit of having set the example of attempting to preserve all such interesting relics. There every person was compelled by very stringent laws to give up all treasure trove, but, at the same time, provision was made that a liberal compensation should be made to those who gave them up to the authorities. The law of treasure trove in England, Ireland, and Scotland, equally tended to the concealment of such discoveries, and many articles of the greatest value had found their way to the melting-pot. It was, however, of great importance to preserve ancient articles of gold and silver which were constantly turning up, because they threw great light upon the arts, the manufactures, and the civilization of past ages. Some years ago several most valuable silver ornaments were found at Largo, in Scotland, upon the property of Mr. Dundas of Arnistoun, and were preserved; but there was no doubt that, owing to the defective state of the law, numerous other articles which were found at the same time found their way to the melting-pot. At Corbridge, in North-umberland, there was found a large silver plate, which was now exhibited in the museum at Alnwick. In Ireland there had been a great many finds both of coins and of ornaments and other articles formed of the precious metals; and much of the treasure so discovered had been melted down. A collection of such articles was at one time formed by Colonel William Barton Cunningham, but that collection had disappeared. About fifty years ago a poor man disposed of a collection of bracelets to a silversmith in Skinner's Row, Dublin, and, although great exertions were made to obtain them for preservation, they proved entirely futile. The evils of the existing state of things were not confined to Great Britain; they had also been experienced abroad, and in some countries measures had been adopted to remove them. In Denmark a short time since notice was given by the Government that fair compensation would be paid for treasure trove, and that penalties would be rigidly enforced against those who did not surrender it to the Crown; and the adoption of this course had led to the preservation of many interesting and valuable relics. I understand that already the question has been
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  settled in Scotland. The King and Queen's Remembrancer for that country having issued a notice that he would give full value for any ancient article found in that country. During the first administration of the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Derby) I presented a memorial to the Lords of the Treasury on the Subject at the request of the Archaeological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, of which I have the honour to be the President, and other learned bodies, but for the short duration of the Government, there was no possibility of anything being done. I presented a similar memorial to the Treasury during the present Administration, but never received any answer whatever to my application. A communication, however, was made through the Lord Lieutenant to the Royal Irish Academy stating that the Lords of the Treasury are willing to allow fair compensation to the finders of any ancient articles of gold or silver, and repeating their advice as to the proper machinery to be adopted. I believe it has been ultimately arranged to use the instrumentality of the police, which has been found so useful for agricultural statistics. My memorial applied to England as much as to Ireland, but I have not been able to ascertain that any answer has been given either to the noble Earl, President of the Society of Antiquaries, or any other of the English societies. Three years ago I prepared a Bill for the Purpose of settling this question with reference to England and Ireland as far as Crown rights were concerned. The Bill was by the meeting of your Lordships read a first time, but I did not proceed to a second reading, as I felt the great technical difficulties connected with the subject, both for its partaking of the character of a Money Bill, and also form the opposition likely to be encountered form private parties who enjoyed grants from the Crown. My object is not to cast any reflection upon any individual or public department, but to ascertain, and give publicity to the course which the Government are prepared to follow in England, as well as Ireland and Scotland, and thoroughly to ventilate the subject. He moved for Copies of Memorials presented to the Lords of the Treasury from any Societies or private Individuals.
  Copies of any Circulars issued by the Queen's and Lord Treasurer's Chief Remembrancer of Scotland, the Chief Secretary of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, or the Secretary of the Home Department, on the Subject of Treasure trove.

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  Copy of any Treasury Minute on the Subject of Treasure trove.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORadmitted that the subject to which the noble Lord had called attention was one of very considerable interest, but at the same time of great difficulty. The great difficulty of legislating in regard to it arose from the fact that this particular prerogative right to the Crown had been made the subject informer times of a variety of grants, and, although the crown might be willing to forego its own right, any interference with the privileges of the grantees would expose the public purse to claims for compensation. It was manifest, therefore, that great caution was required in dealing with it. He fully admitted that the present state of the law was very unsatisfactory, because it offered a temptation to the finders of valuable relics to conceal the discovery and to melt down the articles. Owing, however, to the difficulty he had mentioned, he did not see his way at present to any amendment of the law; and he was not aware that any steps had been taken by the Government in the matter. He had no objection to the Motion of the noble Lord, and would himself take the opportunity of investigating the subject. If he found that anything further could with propriety be done, he would bring it before the Government.
  LORD TALBOT DE MALAHIDEwished to explain that he was afraid the noble and learned Lord had some what mistaken the exact meaning of his Motion. He had no desire to interfere with any private rights, but merely to ascertain what steps the Crown was prepared to take in these cases where had been no grant of its prerogative to any one.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid that, speaking not on behalf of the Government, he rose to thank his noble Friend for having brought this subject forward. It was a fact within his own knowledge that many valuable and interesting relics were now consigned to the melting pot, owing to the existing state of the law. The laws of England and Scotland in regard to treasure-trove were different; in England treasure-trove sometimes appertained to the Crown, and sometimes to the Lord of the Manor; whereas in Scotland it always appertained to the Crown. In many cases in Scotland where gold and silver and other ornaments had been found, the finders would have been willing to give them up to their landlords in whom they felt an
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  interest, and form whom they would expect some small acknowledgment; but they were not so willing to give them up to the Crown, that is to say, to the general public. Owing, however, to the exertions of the archaeological societies in Edinburgh, Ireland, and elsewhere, an important change had taken place form the announcement that in cases of discovery of treasure, the Crown would, in all cases, give full value for them. He happened to be cognizant of these facts—particularly form the circumstance of a large number of ornaments having been recently discovered in the Island of Iona.
  Motion agreed to.

ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE (ENGLAND AND IRELAND).

  ADDRESS FOR A COMMISSION.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDErose to move an Address to the Crown for the appointment of a Commission to inquire into the Constitution, Practice, and Procedure of the Common Law and of the Equity Courts in Ireland. He was induced to bring the question again before their Lordships in consequence of the encouragement he had received and the valuable information which had been supplied to him since he opened the subject in that House. He complained that the reforms and improvements in the practice and procedure of the English courts of law had not been extended to the Irish courts. The consequence was not only a continued waste of money and time to suitors in Ireland, but also an extravagant expenditure of public funds, for the judicial establishments were overgrown and out of all proportion to the work they had to perform. The point on which he desired first to address their Lordships, and on which he felt himself prepared to speak with confidence, because he was supported by high authorities, was the present condition of the Irish Court of Chancery. The value of property assessed to the income tax in England exceeded £246,000,000. The value of property so assessed in Ireland, where the population was, he believed, about 6,000,000, was only £22,000,000. In England there were seven Equity Judges— the Lord Chancellor, the Master of the Rolls, two Justices of Appeal, and three Vice-Chancellors. In Ireland they had the Lord Chancellor, the Master of the Rolls, the Lord Justice of Appeal, three Masters in Chancery, exercising ju-

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  dicial functions—a class of functionaries now abolished in England—besides one Master occupied in accounts, and three Judges of the Landed Estates Court—in all nine Equity Judges. With regard to the last-mentioned court one instance would be sufficient to show the benefits which it conferred by facilitating the transfer of land. An estate having been bought in the Encumbered Estates Court passed into the hands of a person who wished to resell it. A gentleman was desirous to become the purchaser. Negotiations were entered into and the purchase was completed. The money was paid, the estate was transferred, and the conveyances were duly executed. The gross rental of the estate was £576 a year. The cost for stamps was £62, and the attorney's bill, including a search of the register to see that no incumbrance had been created since the Court gave a title, and the registering of the new purchase, was only £8 14 s. 2d. It was obvious that the simplicity of title secured under the administration of the Court must prevent a great amount of litigation, and that there was a certainty of the business of the Court being gradually reduced. About six or seven years ago the number of cases in the court was 1,300, and in 1859 the number was reduced to 400. He held that the staff of even this Court might be easily reduced; while its affect upon the legal business of the country generally was obvious. But the point to which he wished to call particular attention was the existence of three Masters of Chancery, performing judicial duties, when those officers had been abolished in England. In the Court of Chancery in England the business was now disposed of with the utmost facility and with the greatest cheapness, while due attention was paid to legal points and legal questions. How extravagant was the staff of equity Judges in Ireland appeared by a comparison of the property administered by those courts with that managed by the Equity Courts in England. The total amount of money paid out of the English Court of Chancery in 1859 was £14,185,035. The amount paid out of the Irish Court of Chancery in the same year was £1,145,000, or about one-fourteenth. The cash, stocks, and securities held by the Court of Chancery in England amounted in October, 1858, to nearly £53,000,000. The cash, stocks, and securities held by the Court of Chancery in Ireland amounted on the 1st
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  of January last to nearly £4,000,000. The amount of business in the Irish Court Was infinitely inferior to that of the English Court, and yet the cost of administering property in the English Court of Chancery was little more than one-third that of the Irish Court. The Report of the Commission, to which were attached the names of the present Lord Chancellor or England, the present Lord Chancellor or Ireland, Mr. Blackburne, the Lord Justice of Appeal in Ireland, the Master of the Rolls in England, and several other eminent lawyers, recommended that the practice and procedure of the Irish Court should be assimilated to those of the Court of Chancery in England. The Report was presented five or six years ago, and ever since it had remained a dead letter. He felt that here he was rather over proving his case, and that it might be said there was no need for a Commission, as, after the Report to which he had referred, they might deal with the case at once. But it must be remembered that, whereas all the alterations in England had proceeded on well-considered Reports, either of Commissions or Select Committees, the alterations, such as they had been, in the Irish courts within the last thirty years had for the most part been made without previous investigation. The expenses of the Common Law Courts had, as he had shown on a former occasion, increased in proportion as the business had decreased. The staff was larger than necessary, for, while there were only fifteen Common Law Judges in England, there were twelve in Ireland. In his opinion, these twelve might safely be reduced to nine, and instead of six circuits, four circuits would be quite sufficient. As far as he could make out, two puisne Judges in England did as much work as nine puisne Judges in Ireland. When Lord Lyndhurst recommended the increase of the number of the puisne Judges in England, it was with the object that there might alway be Judges to hear cases in chambers; but while in England the number of orders made in chambers in 1859 was 44,870, of which 41,325 were made without the attendance of counsel, the number of chamber order made in Ireland in 1860 were 1,782, of which a few more than 100 only were made without the attendance of counsel. To show that the number of circuits might be safely diminished to four, he found by Returns before Parliament, that there were only five cases of homicide in 1859 in Ire-

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  land, while in England and Wales in 1860 there were 149 homicides. The committals, too, for crimes in England and Wales were 16,674, and the convictions 12,470, in 1860; while for Ireland the committals were only 5,865, and the convictions 3,109. In 1851 the number of judgment cases entered in the three Law Courts in Ireland was 7,229, at a cost to the public in salaries and emoluments of £17,759, while in 1859 the number of cases and judgments entered had dwindled to 3,421, and the expense had risen to £22,399. Much inconvenience arose from the practice in Ireland of the Judge framing the issues, which of course he did not on evidence of the real facts of the case, but on mere statements of parties. The consequence was that at the trial the evidence was not directed so much to the merits of the case and the rights of the real litigants as to the particular issue thus framed by the Judge. These were matters which were notorious, and he trusted the Government would not object to inquiry into admitted evils. The only objection which he could conceive to the Motion was that it would be unpopular with the legal profession in Ireland to diminish the number of places; for there could be no doubt that the effect of new regulations in the Law Courts would be to diminish the amount of public money expended on the staff of these Courts and the number of fees uselessly paid. He did not believe that any Irish lawyer worthy of his Profession would take such an objection. His object was to raise the Irish Bar. He believed their Lordships' House was the only tribunal in this country at which Irish lawyers were allowed to plead, and that only in Irish cases. If the practice of the Law Courts in the two countries were assimilated, an Irish lawyer might then be brought over to plead here; and, on the other hand, he wished that facilities were given by which eminent counsel from this country might be taken occasionally over to Ireland to plead in the superior courts when knotty and difficult points of law were involved in a case. The noble Marquess concluded by moving,
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that Her Majesty will be graciously pleased to issue a Royal Commission to inquire into the following matters with a view to reduce costs to suitors and the expenditure of the public money, and to assimilate, so far as may be practicable, the administration of justice in England and Ireland, in accordance with the recommendations of the Royal Commission of 1855:
  "1. The Constitution, Establishment, Prac-
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  tice, Procedure, and Fees of the Superior Court of Common Law in Ireland:
  "2. The Differences between the Constitution and the Forms of Practice, Procedure, and Fees of the Courts of Chancery of England and of Ireland."
  LORD WENSLEYDALEthought that a clear case had been made out for inquiry. Down to 1828 the practice in the Law Courts of the two countries was very nearly the same; but since that time important changes had been made, both in the equity and the common law Courts in England, which had not been extended to Ireland. Under these circumstances it was certainly desirable to inquire which of the two systems at present existing was the better.
  EARL GRANVILLEadmitted that the noble Marquess had made out a clear case for inquiry in this matter, and he, therefore, on the parts of the Government, would make no opposition to the Motion. He would, however, suggest the omission of the words "in accordance with the recommendation of the Royal Commissioners of 1855," which might, perhaps, have the effect of unnecessarily restricting the future Commissioners.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, he would, with their Lordships' permission, strike those words out.
  LORD BROUGHAMentirely agreed with the Motion. Nothing could be more necessary than that such a Commission should be issued. There was one part of the subject, however, which required no Commission—he meant that of judicial statistics. It was evidently most important that there should exist judicial statistics in respect of Ireland, such as there were in the cases of England and Scotland. Whether the practice of the Courts could be in all respects assimilated, might be a fitting subject for inquiry, and might possibly demand legislation; but by a simple Order of the Treasury the system of judicial statistics might be extended to Ireland at no greater additional expense than the appointment of one extra clerk. Without these statistics it was impossible for Parliament to judge what was the effect of their legislation. One advantage of the assimilation of the practice and procedure would be that it would decrease the difficulties which surrounded appeals from Irish Courts to the Privy Council. That morning the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, with the assistance of some other noble and learned Lords and himself, had been engaged in hearing a case from an Irish Court in Which the incon-

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  venience of the different practices of the two Courts was very apparent. In this country the parties were allowed to go on pleading till they came to an issue; in Ireland a totally different course was pursued; the learned Judge there decided on the issue. He trusted that the Motion would be agreed to, and that a direction would be given that measures should be taken to secure for Ireland statistics of its judicial proceedings.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, that he entirely approved of his noble and learned Friend's suggestion respecting Judicial Statutes.
  Motion, as amended, agreed to.

MOZAMBIQUE—EASTERN AFRICAN SLAVE TRADE.

  MOTION FOR A RESOLUTION.
  LORD STRATHEDENrose to move the Resolution of which he had given notice—
  "That in the Opinion of this House it is desirable, without delay, to restore the Consular Authority of Great Britain at Mozambique, in order to assist the Government of Portugal in repressing the Slave Trade on the Eastern Coast of Africa."
  The noble Lord said, last year, on the 25th of June, the House of Lords addressed the Crown to re-appoint the consul at Mozambique, in order to promote the execution of the treaties between Britain and Portugal upon the Slave Trade. The Address and vacancy continue. A paper has been issued to the House of Commons assigning Mozambique to a list of consulships abolished. Since then the noble Lord the Foreign Secretary, in answer to a recent deputation, has again resolved to weigh the question. The Motion of last year, therefore, is not deprived of hope, and yet has hitherto been fruitless. It would be, indeed, an idle manifesto on the part of the House of Lords unless a further step was taken for its object; and I should have been guilty of idly and, therefore, unpardonably wasting the attention of the House were I to refrain now from further agitation of the subject. I shall, therefore, hope for the Indulgence which your Lordships usually extend to those who, having seldom ventured to address you, do so not from choice, but from a necessity which binds them.
  Much, however, as I feel the want of that indulgence, it is not because, as it appears to me, the Government are bound to view the Motion in a hostile spirit. If
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  last year they were justified in the course they pursued, and if your Lordships, who declined to join them, were in error, since that time reasons of a commercial kind for the appointment of a consul have arisen, founded on the new demand for cotton in the world. Such reasons are immensely heightened by the very latest news we have on the slave trade. When, beyond these obvious arguments, a few years back the Government of the day, impelled by the House of Commons, resolved to send a consul to Mozambique; when every ground for sending him was justified by circumstances too well known to the world; when the very facts which led to his departure showed the peril of his absence; when the House of Lords has addressed the Crown in order to replace him; when the judgment of the House of Lords enjoyed the highest marks of public approbation—a Government which hesitates at first, which next declares the consular authority in question to be abrogated, and then, again, resolves upon deliberating, stands in a position which, if this debate should close, it would be a friendly act to them as well as to the country.
  In spite of the veil which hangs over the eastern coast of Africa from Cape Delgado to Delagoa Bay, a seaboard of 1,500 miles without a British representative—a veil which in itself forms a conclusive reason for appointing one—in spite of the fact that from his absence none of our merchant men are found upon the coast, and that our cruisers seldom penetrate its darkness, it will not be difficult to prove, from the documents the Foreign Office has supplied to us, what ought first to be established—namely, the existence and intensity of the slave trade in those waters.
  In December, 1859, Her Majesty's Commissioners at Havannah distinctly informed the Government that the slave trade had revived in their opinion from the channel of Mozambique. In January, 1860, Her Majesty's Commissioners at Cape Town, in their annual Report on the slave trade upon the eastern coast, explain that from Ibo four vessels have taken off full cargoes for the Cuban market; that from Quillimane negroes are exported at the rate of a cargo every month for the supply of the French settlements. And both these places are within the Portuguese dominion. In August, 1859, Sir Frederick Grey declared that the export of negroes to Bourbon, under the head of free laborers, has been carried on to an extent un-

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  precedented, accompanied by all the evils of the slave trade. In February, 1860, Lord John Russell writes that upon the eastern coast of Africa a most profitable slave trade is carried on with little interuption. He might have said without any so far as Britain was concerned. Captain Rigby, the British agent at Zanzibar, to the north of Cape Delgado, is a witness in March, 1859, that within Zanzibar dominions a French brig of war had protected two French vessels embarking slaves against the wishes of the Sultan. In February, 1860, Lord John Russell tells Lord Cowley that up to the latest dates French Vessels, long after the prohibition of the Emperor, had been shipping slaves at Zanzibar, in violation of the laws and in defiance of the Sultan. We learn from Dr. Livingstone in March, 1859, that at Quillimane the French slave trade had suppressed every other commerce. In September, 1860, Her Majesty's Commissioners at Cape Town quote Dr. Livingstone to the same effect down to the early part of April. In June, 1860, Lord John Russell tells Lord Cowley with what regret and disappointment he has learnt that the French Government no longer professes to restrain the purchase of slaves upon the eastern coast of Africa. Last of all, in his recent letter on the treaty for the supply of Indian labour, the Emperor implies that till July, 1862, the attitude of France upon this subject, which Lord John Russell had deplored so justly, will remain unaltered.
  No doubt these references may be said to prove more than is necessary, or than at first it was intended to establish. Instead of merely showing the activity of the slave trade on the eastern coast of Africa, incidentally they show the vigour and tenacity of the French demand for negro labour. The illustrations of the French demand on eastern and western Africa are so frequent in these volumes that it is difficult to get out of their way, or make any fact clear without its being more or less entangled with them. And yet the illustrations were not wanting to explain it. It was long ago betrayed by the numerous attempts of the French Government to obtain from the Cabinet of Protugal the negro exportation which they aimed at; by the appeals of interested parties to the Colonial Minister at Lisbon; by the unwearied pressure of the French naval officers and delegates upon the Viceroy of Mozambique. Beyond this it outlived the firmest resolutions and strongest measures
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  to extinguish it. In July, 1857, before the British Consul reached Mozambique, the French Government in theory renounced it, and declared, by the commander of their squadron, that no further embarkation would occur upon the eastern coast of Africa. How far this intention was fulfilled the history of the British Consul has revealed to us. In January, 1859, the Emperor himself, in a letter to Prince Napoleon, solemnly declared the termination of the system. But, as the last despatch from Lord John Russell has explained, the arbiter of Europe yielded in the struggle he was honourably eager to commence. As regards the French demand, therefore, the Government of Britain the Government of Portugal, and at the head of France itself a mind which no adversity could shake, have all been overcome by it. The treaty which comes into force in 1862 may certainly assuage it. At the best, however, Indian labour, it is much to be feared, will cost more than African. At the best it is but an experiment which Her Majesty's Administration deserve no little credit for resorting to.
  A document, as well known to my noble Friend the Under Secretary as to myself, informs me that, in 1856, 40,000 Indian coolies were in Bourbon. We all know how little they sufficed to check and supersede the want of negro labour. All that time, as now, the French were able to draw coolies from their own Indian settlements of Pondicherry, Karikal, and Chandernagor. My own impression is, in spite of all these difficulties, the treaty will succeed if the Governor of Mozambique honestly abets it. While he shuts the door of eastern Africa the French demand may very likely take the channel you have opened to it. If he sits still, if he connives, if he partakes, if, like his predecessors, he becomes an interested agent and keen accomplice in the traffic, your remedy, however well conceived, will be inadequate. Slavers will not be watched, slavers will not be captured; the commanders of out squadron will not be supported, the natural resources and lawful commerce of eastern Africa will not be developed while he is opposing you. The effect of the treaty turns on his adherence to a path of independence, of integrity, of sacrifice, of danger. How far, as things stand, will he adhere to it?
  A great deal is known now as to the position of this Viceroy. It is known that his salary is not only insufficient,

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  but in the hands of men addicted to the slave trade. It is known that if he looks to case and popularity, and the opinion which surrounds him, he must in some degree indulge the traffic. It is known that outrage may descend upon him if he sets his face against it. It is known that he is weakened by a climate fatal to his energy, at a distance from the counsels of his Government, the sentiments of Europe, and the influence of friends. It is known that no Viceroy of Mozambique, however Portugal might urge him, ever did resist the slave trade until a British representative was present to support him. What are we to look for in the want of one?
  A single fact I lately ascertained from Lisbon will throw some light upon that question. The present Governor General is the same who went to Mozambique in 1857. He arrived soon after our consul. He was sent, in point of fact, by our influence. He went out with instructions, which were rather those of Britain than of Portugal, to eradicate the slave trade in whatever form it might disguise itself. He was not unfaithful to his mission. The coast of Mozambique, under his auspices, was guarded form French vessels. One of them, the Charles et Georges, Whose name can never be pronounced without recalling bitter sentiments to Europe, by his authority was captured in those waters, 100 slaves having been found in her, the greater part of them obtained in his dominion. While the trial was going on France and Portugal were brought into collision on the subject. Public law was superseded. British interference was rejected. French ships of war entered the Tagus. The inhabitants of Lisbon saw their laws suspended their capital insulted, and last of all their Treasury despoiled, because the Governor General had done his duty on this question. The Powers of the world looked on with useless indignation. Since then Britain has disappeared form Mozambique; but this deserving Viceroy still remains there. He is there, and is not likely to forget the evils he brought upon his country by his virtue. He is there, and is not likely to outlive the recollection of the wrongs his honesty occasioned her. He might well be pardoned if he fixed his eyes on the transaction in grief, in shame, and in resentment, when every mind in Europe had dismissed it; and while he does so, is it possible that without a British representative to guarantee the firmness of this country, to show she has recovered from
  860
  the blow which fell on her and Portugal together, to urge him, to sustain him, and to act with him, to draw our cruisers to his aid and commerce to his harbours, he will once more expose the Government of Portugal to a distant hazard of the terrible calamity it went through? Until Great Britain rises once again over those waters can he have instructions so to do; or, if he has, can he obey them?
  Another word upon this point would be superfluous. No one can contend that, as things now stand, the Governor General can be what you desire in seconding the treaty by which you hope to put an end to the French demand upon that seaboard. But many may inquire how far a reformation would ensue if Great Britain did her utmost. To resolve this question common sense at once induces us to turn to the Portuguese possession of Angola, on the western coast of Africa. What has there been our course, and what our experience? In 1843, when the mixed court was first established there, and British representatives were for the first time settled at the capital of Loanda, things were very much as they are now at Mozambique. The Portuguese authorities were all devoted to the slave trade. Mr. Gabriel, our Commissioner, saw at one time thirty slavers in the harbour of Loanda. In November, 1843, Captain Foote wrote to the hon. Sidney Herbert that the whole coast occupied by Portugal was interspersed by barracoons full of slaves prepared for embarkation under the control of Portuguese adventurers, and with the flag of Portugal above them. In another letter of November, 1843, Captain Foote denounced to the same Minister the conduct of the Portuguese Judge in the mixed court who had given a certificate to a vessel sailing from Loanda with well-known proofs of being adapted to the slave trade. The tribunal formed to check the evil was thus depraved into its instrument. In April, 1844, the Lisbon Foreign Office published a list of vessels captured by the naval force of Portugal in the two previous years; and that list includes eight vessels of their country. Such was the fatal evidence which Portugal pronounced against herself upon the western coast of Africa. The first British Arbitrator and Commissioner having both in a few months fallen victims—one by his own hand, one by the fever of the country—the outset of our policy was no less discouraging and melancholy than it has been at Mozambique. But persever-

  861
  ance had its consequences. Mr. Gabriel arrived at Loanda in April, 1845; and the last glaring case which he reported was that of the Veiga, in 1850. This case being one of a vessel convicted of the slave trade under aggravated circumstances, brought grave, well-founded, and not unavailing censure from our Government on Portugal. Since that time the traffic has been banished from the waters of Angola, although it flourishes beyond them to the north, from the Equator to the Congo. The modus operandi has been simple, and every volume on the slave trade would illustrate it. A British representative on shore, whether consul, Arbitrator, or Commissioner, has obvious lines open to him for the suppression of the traffic. He may give information to the naval officers by which their labours are directed. He may keep the Governor General alive to every object of suspicion. He may see how far the laws of Portugal are executed. He may encourage lawful commerce, to which, indeed, he is essential. He may give the Government at home information and authority, without which he will in vain address ten Cabinet of Lisbon. By such means the united efforts of Great Britain and Portugal, on the western coast of Africa, have reached a glorious result; and it is rational to hope that on the Eastern coast the same union would effect a similar achievement.
  But granted there is no certainty in our success at Mozambique, it will appear upon reflection that we are no less bound to restore the consular authority without which success is unattainable. The authority was not set up without full consideration. A Committee of the House of Commons sat in 1853 to inquire into our treaties on the slave trade. Captain Bunt, a naval officer, commander of the Castor, who had cruized in the channel of Mozambique during 1850–1–2, gave evidence before it so full of interest and gravity that it well deserves the study of your Lordships. By him it was first alleged, representing as he did the views of naval men, that we ought to have a consul at Mozambique, as the first step to the repression of the slave trade in those waters. The Report of the Committee, who were evidently startled upon learning that from Cape Delgardo to Delagoa Bay there was not an Englishman residing, although generally doubtful in its language, blazons that opinion. Soon after the office was created by Lord Palmerston and Lord
  862
  Clarendon at the same time that our Government was holding a language towards Portugal which made the measure indispensable; for to be perpetually accusing Portugal about the slave trade at Mozambique, while we were parties to the evil we complained of, was something worse than inconsistent. In point of fact, for fifty years we had attempted to exert an influence on Portugal in this sense both on the East and on the West coast of Africa. In sending out the consul we took the course our previous language had dictated to us. It was not found to be superfluous or useless. The strongest illustration fell on its necessity and value. We still profess to seek the object of its agency. Without we do nothing. For it must never be forgotten that the efforts of the Portuguese authorities, the action of our cruizers, and the growth of lawful commerce are all three suspended or retarded in its absence. It was broken down by temporary difficulties which it becomes the honour of the country not to yield to but to vanquish. Acting on the policy of years and the professions of her statesmen we determined on a new attempt against the slave trade in Mozambique. And now, having incurred a check which all Europe saw, we slide into inaction. If such inaction is not on the face of it admissable, what makes it wholly inadmissable is that a degrading motive is quite sure to be ascribed to it. It must strike the world that we shrink from the necessity of defending Portugal should our consular authority engage her in that strenuous resistance to the slave trade which France may not entirely approve of. The world knows at least that since France had reason to dislike it our consular authority has vanished from Mozambique. Undue desire to escape collision with that Government will always be imputed to us, although perhaps unjustly, until we venture to restore it; and even those who do not make the imputation, will remark that we were driven back from an attempt on which we had conspicuously entered.
  These views might have been urged last year. Since then a stronger ground has opened itself. The main disadvantage of suspending our consular authority has long ago been pointed to. It is the silence it imposes on our Government—if it has any modesty and recollects itself—towards the Cabinet of Lisbon as regards anything which happens on the eastern coast of

  863
  Africa. But there is something worse than silence. It is language unsupported by the conduct of the Government which uses it, and open to a crushing answer from that to which it is addressed. On the 8th of December, 1860, the Foreign Secretary instructed Sir A. Magenis, our Minister at Portugal, to offer a strong remonstrance to the Cabinet of Lisbon as regards the vigour of the slave trade on the coast of Mozambique; and he has called upon that Cabinet to renew its efforts in repressing it. His intentions, no doubt, were good. At least his courage was remarkable. Few men would venture to assert that Portugal was bound to make pecuniary sacrifices—and it is only by pecuniary sacrifices she can repress the slave trade in those parts—while Great Britain shrinks from the minute and inconsiderable to aid her. Few men would venture to assert that Portugal was bound to hazard the fearful weight of French displeasure while Great Britain keeps herself secure from a remote and possible collision with it; that we should arrogate the virtue of remonstrance and leave to them the loss and danger of attending to it; that we should bend to France by the abeyance of our consular authority, Portugal confront her by resisting negro importation, while the mentor skulks away from any part in the exertion which he preaches. If the Ministers of Portugal are unwilling to remind the Foreign Secretary of the anathema which eighteen centuries ago descended on the character who wished to clear the vision of another, his own being darker still, at least they might reply to him in terms which easily occur to us. It is too late now to cancel the remonstrance. It is not too late to support it. You cannot blot it out, but you can justify it by the measure I submit to you.
  As things stand affected by the language of the Foreign Secretary, which forms a most essential feature of the case before us, but one forms a most essential feature of the case before us, but one consideration could justify a Government in pausing—that is the difficulty of finding anybody suited to the office. It requires aptitudes not always found together. If fancy was indulged in the sketch of a character adapted to it, it would light on some one who had long been accustomed to influence the Portuguese authorities, who would join urbanity with firmness in so doing, who was zealous in his opposition to the slave trade, who
  864
  had succeeded in restraining it, and who could bring to bear upon the evils and disorders of Mozambique the talent and authority by which in a course of years he had reformed the situation of Angola. In Mr. Gabriel the Government would find, perhaps, that such a character exists, even if they are not able to enlist him in a service so full of danger and of honour, and for which his past career so eminently marks him. Mr. Gabriel has now been a British representative at Loanda fifteen years. He may be regarded, as in some degree, the founder of our system there. He has had to deal with no less than half a dozen Viceroys. The volumes on the slave trade abound with proofs of his tact, of his public spirit and intelligence. He is in England at this moment. But setting Mr. Gabriel aside, Colonel Rigby has just left Zanzibar, and no one can have watched the history of eastern Africa for the last few years without being struck by the many proofs which it reveals of his judgment, of his energy, and fortitude.
  My Lords, whatever course my noble Friend the President of the Council may deem it right to take upon this Motion, he will have at least the justice to remember that half a century ago we entered on a certain line of conduct towards Portugal for the repression of the slave trade; that a few years back that line imposed upon us a fresh exertion at Mozambique; that the exertion broke from causes it is possible to guard against and which increase the duty of reverting to it; that the motives which originally prompted it remain; that new ones loudly call for it; that this House, supported by the public, a year ago, advised Her Majesty's Administration to renew it; that the recent language of the noble Lord the Foreign Secretary, which is the language of the country, can only be invested with propriety and dignity by doing so; that the experience and power which the office wants may be obtained; that the Viceroy of Mozambique, whom our influence appointed, struggles at his post to carry out the policy we claimed while we are doubting whether to stand by him. My Lords, the object of the Motion ought to be not to gain a barren victory like that of last year over the Government, but to convince them that the proposition is one it better suits them to accept than use their power in resisting. Regard for the consistency of the noble Lord the Foreign Secretary is a motive which may weight perhaps in

  865
  their decision. Beyond that the President of the Council may bear in mind that, responsible as he is before the public for the dignity of the House of Lords, he is bound to pause before he asks them to recall the judgment they pronounced last year upon the subject. It was not rash. It was not inconsidered. There was not the shred or shadow of an argument opposed to it. He was not able to unite his friends; he was not able to unite his colleagues in resisting, and now the Prime Minister himself, in answer to a recent deputation, has informed us that it is not to his opinion or his power we ought to trace the vacancy referred to. At the same time the Prime Minister must see the whole discredit it involves; and from this the noble Lord the President, no doubt, would anxiously relieve him. Still more anxious, if I am not mistaken, he will be now the facts are placed before him to close a situation which, in a single word, withdraws from Africa a hope, inflicts on Portugal a wrong, and stands between Great Britain and its honour. My Lords, the Motion is submitted to you under circumstances more imperative that those which last year appeared to you sufficient, but in a form less grave and less emphatic than that which even then your Lordships deemed it prudent by moving his Resolution.
  LORD WODEHOUSEsaid, that the Address for the appointment of a Consul at Mozambique, when was adopted last year, was carried by surprise, and because the Government, not anticipating a division, had allowed their supporters to leave the House. Under those circumstances it could scarcely be regarded as having enunciated the decided opinion of the House upon this question. He should have been disposed to ask the noble Lord not to press this Resolution to a division, but as he knew from experience that the noble Lord had far too much determination to adopt so mild a course, he should endeavour to show their Lordships that it was not desirable to agree to his proposal. His noble Friend's reference to the blue books appeared, as far as his recollection served him, to refer to a state of things which had gone by—namely, to that which existed prior to the commencement of the year 1859, when the Emperor of the French wrote the letter by which he put an end to emigration from the east coast of Africa. At the time of the affair of the Charles et Georges there existed an active emigration of ne-
  866
  groes; but the letter of the Emperor had put a close to that system. It was true that that emigration did not cease immediately upon the publication of that letter; but that circumstance arose from no want of good faith on the part of the French Government, but from the distance to which instructions had to be sent and the time necessarily occupied in sending them. The treaty with France to which his noble Friend had alluded did not refer to the emigration from the eastern coast, which had already been put a stop to by the letter of 1859, but to the emigration from the western coast, which was to be put an end to in 1862. The reason for that date being fixed upon was that the French Government had entered into a contract by which a certain number of blacks were to be sent to Martinique and other colonies; that contract would not expire until the middle of 1862, and Her Majesty's Government were unwilling to consent to a treaty allowing the emigration of coolies to those colonies until the emigration of blacks had entirely ceased; whereas the immigration of negroes from the eastern coast to Reunion had so entirely ceased in consequence of the Emperor's letter that the immigration of coolies into that colony was to be permitted at once. This proved that Her Majesty's Government had not been indifferent or negligent in the matter. His noble Friend's arguments, which were founded upon the state of things which existed while the disguised French slave trade was going on were not application to the present state of things. There remained, however, the ordinary slave trade carried on between the east coast of Africa and the Island of Cuba, and it was undoubtedly true that that trade had recently been, to a certain extent, thriving. Some vessels had been captured by our squadron, but others had got away and carried their slaves to Cuba. His noble Friend had said that with regard to the appointment of a Consul at Mozambique the Government had been undecided, and had sometimes held one language and sometimes another. That was quite natural, because that appointment involved no question of principle, and was, indeed, a matter which he thought might have been left to the discretion of the Executive Government. If the House of Lords or Commons told the Government to appoint a Consul here or there, it seemed to them that they were usurping the functions of the Executive; but hi noble Friend had gone still further

  867
  than that, for he had selected the person who was to be appointed. He had said that there was at Loanda a very able and excellent gentleman, Mr. Gabriel.
  LORD STRATHEDENwas understood to explain that he had said he was afraid that Mr. Gabriel would not resign his appointment at Loanda for sake of the less lucrative one of Consul at Mozambique.
  LORD WODEHOUSEdid not think that he had mistaken his noble Friend as to his selection. He had understood his reference to the improbability of Mr. Gabriel's accepting the appointment as a gentle hint to the Members of the other House that they should raise the salary of this Consul at Mozambique to the amount which Mr. Gabriel received as Commissioner at Loanda, in order to induce that gentleman—whom he was glad to have that opportunity of saving was a most able man—to accept the appointment. No doubt a great deal might be said on both sides of the question. He was not prepared to deny that many reasons might be given for the appointment of a Consul. Lord Clarendon, when he appointed a Consul at Mozambique, must have thought that there were such reasons; but his noble Friend, who was unable to be present that evening, had authorized him to say that he thought that this was a matter which might be left in the hands of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and that he did not think that the appointment of a Consul would be of much use unless a large squadron were placed upon the eastern coast of Africa. In point of fact that was the gist of the question. If you placed a large squadron on the coast you might, no doubt, at great expense, suppress the traffic; but if you had a squadron it would be of very little use to place one agent at some one particular point upon coast—it would be necessary to have agents all along the shore to give information to your naval officers. On the western coast, though the Portuguese claimed the entire jurisdiction, they had establishments only at isolated points, and the coast for many hundred miles was held by a number of petty slave-trading chiefs, and we appointed Consuls, who resided in their neighbourhood and exercised great influence over them. The case was very different in the Portuguese possessions on the western coast, where no Consul could think of declaring war against the king of Portugal for anything that might occur in his district. There a
  868
  Consul could only remonstrate with the local authorities in a series of notice. The authorities would deny some of his statements, and promise to inquire into the others. The Consul would transmit the Despatches home, and thence they would be sent to Lisbon. They would be brought under the notice of the Foreign Secretary there, who would also contest the statements, and send to Mozambique for explanations. These would arrive in time, and would pass backwards and forwards in a similar manner. What redress could be expected from such a course. The result would be only a great deal of exasperation on both sides, and a state of things would probably arise such as made the late Consul throw up his appointment in disgust. It was an undoubted fact that the slave trade existed on that coast; but it would be unless he had squadron to support him in his efforts to repress the illegal traffic. On the east the Portuguese had an enormous extent of coast to which they claimed possession, but upon which they had only two or three isolated posts, and the consequence was that they had very little authority there. On the west, however, they had really solid possession of the territory which they claimed, and their power was accordingly more substantial. The Portuguese Government, he believed, were as much in earnest in desiring the suppression of the slave trade on the one coast equal power to carry it into effect. This question of the appointment of a British Consul was, he was ready to admit, worthy of consideration, but he thought there were reasons for pausing before such a step was taken—amongst them was the fact that Dr. Livingstone at present held the consular appointment in the district referred to by the noble Lord, and it was desirable to see what would be the result of his proceedings before any change was made. He hoped their Lordships would show their confidence in the Government by leaving the matter in the hands of the noble Lord at the head of the Foreign Office, whose zeal for the suppression of the slave trade was well known, and would leave it to the Executive to decide as to the time and manner of this appointment, if such an appointment should appear to them to be desirable.
  LORD BROUGHAMremarked upon the statement of the noble Lord that the vote of last year had not been such as to ex-

  869
  press the opinion of their Lordships on the Motion of his noble Friend (Lord Stratheden). The noble Lord stated that the majority on that occasion was owing, not to the strength of the cause, not to the strength of the cause, not to the facts brought forward, not to the ability with which they were stated, not to the eloquence of his right rev. Friend (the Bishop of Oxford), worthy of the cause he espoused and the name he bore—that it was not owing to any or all of these ordinary causes of an important majority in a debate, but to what his noble Friend (Lord Wodehouse) called "our letting our people go." That was language that might have been formerly used in some of our colonies—"We had not a sufficient number of workmen on our occasion to get in the sugar, to get in the cotton, or to gather the coffee, because the weather was such that we let our people go."
  LORD WODEHOUSEsaid, he did not use the word "people." He spoke of the "supporters" of the Government.
  LORD BROUGHAMobserved that, whether they were called "people," or "supporters," did not matter—the expression of his noble Friend implied that the Government exercised an authority over them by which they could be kept back or let go at pleasure. He believed that the Portuguese Government had been most zealous in their desire to abolish the slave trade on the east as well as the west coast. Great credit was due to them for their conduct on the west coast. Instead of the 60,000 negroes who used to be carried from the west coast to Brazil, the number had been reduced to 30,000, to 20,000, till at last the traffic had ceased entirely. The consequences had been most happy to the great continent of Africa. He had it on the authority of Mr. Gabriel, an extremely well-informed person, who had resided twenty-four years in the improvement in that part of the country was so great that not only had the trade in human creatures ceased, but the legitimate exports amounted to £260,000 a year, and the imports to£230,000. These circumstances encouraged them to hope that no long period would elapse before that vast continent, which had suffered so much from the crimes and avarice of white men and Christians, would be freed from the slave trade. The complaint of the Portuguese was that they had not sufficient authority on the east coast, and that they were not supported
  870
  as they expected to be by the appointment of a British Consul there. They believed that the support of such an officer would enable them to carry into effect their desire to extend to the east cost the blessings which had attended the suppression of the slave trade in some portion of the west. All were now agreed that the iniquitous traffic must be put down by immediate measures, and that this country had not only a right, but a duty to exercise in interposing their assistance and authority for that purpose in foreign countries and foreign colonies, as we had done in all our own dependencies. He hoped and trusted that, purpose in foreign countries and foreign colonies, as we had done in all our own dependencies. He hoped and trusted that, by God's good providence, slavery itself would before very long be exterminated; but that could only be accomplished gradually and by peaceable means. Whoever was an enemy to the negro, whoever was a friend to slavery and to the slave trade itself, would advise hasty, rash, and violent measures, and would incite a negro insurrection, which would be the greatest curse that could happen, not only to the greatest of all mistakes had been committed in some parts of North America in imagining that those who were opposed to violence and in favour of lawful and prudent measures were, therefore, not hostile to slavery. His belief was that those who, like himself, held those of public opinion were the most effectual enemies of that abominable institution.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the noble and learned Lord had rather misunderstood what had fallen from his noble Friend the under Secretary of State in reference to the division of last year. It was not that any moral or physical compulsion was used, because such compulsion could not be used to induce the supporters of the Government to withdraw; but, in point of fact, the Members of the House retried under the belief that no division would take place. Some of those were of opinion that it was a subject for the Executive Government and not for the House; while others, like the Earl of Clarendon and the Earl of Malmesbury, went away because they were opposed to the appointment of a Consul. He did not rise to re-open the question. The noble and learned Lord in bringing forward his Motion had stated all the points in its favour, and his noble Friend the Under Secratary had shown what objections there were to the proposal. He

  871
  thought with his noble Friend the Under Secretary of State that this House should not set an example to the other House of considering questions peculiarly belonging to the Executive Government, and he, therefore, appealed to the noble Lord not to press his Motion to a division.
  LORD BROUGHAMsaid, he feared the "supporters" of the Government belonged to a class of persons described by Mr. Fergusson, a Scotch gentleman, when he said, "I have often heard speeches which changed my opinion, but I never heard one which changes my vote."
  THE BISHOP OF OXFORDsaid, he ventures last year to counsel his noble Friend to persevere in his Motion, notwithstanding the syren voice of the noble Earl, and he was induced to give him the contrary advice to-night. They were in all respects very differently circumstanced this year from last, because if by change they had a superiority in argument they would certainly not have a superiority in votes. That was not, however, the reason which induced him to advise his noble Friend to withdraw his Motion, as he should himself rejoice to have the opportunity of recording his opinion, no matter how small might be the minority: the ground upon which he advised his noble Friend not to divide was this—that he could not but think that the appointment of a Consul to the east coast was in some degree damaged by this House venturing to give and opinion to the Executive Government which the Executive Government did not wish to receive, and that the broad principle of teaching this House a lesson not to interfere, but to trust implicitly in the Executive, might have prevented the Executive Government doing for a whole year what the Executive Government might, perhaps, have done if they had received no such intimation. Many of the leading members of the present Government had shown distinctly for many years that they had at heart the suppression of the oppressive slave trade. He felt bound to do justice to the noble Lord at the head of the Government and to say that though a long career the noble and honesty policy on this subject. He would, therefore, leave the Government, free to act on what he believed would be their nobler inspirations when they felt that the House had not interposed with a vote upon a matter which should be left to the Executing Government. As far as the arguments went, he did not think that
  872
  the laborious and detailed speech of the noble Lord who moved the Resolution had been answered by the noble Lord the Under Secretary. The argument used by the Under Secretary was, that a great deal had been done to the accursed slave trade which had been carried on for some time on the eastern coast, and that their Lordships might conclude from what had been done that a far more important step than the appointment of a Consul would be taken, if necessary, to accomplish their object. But he would remind his noble Friend that the question was not what was most important to be done. He would say to him, "This you ought to have done, but you ought not therefore, to have left the other undone." If the appointment of a consular power on the eastern coast would materially help the great work which by other means the Government had been labouring to accomplish, why, because they had used other means, should those means, though minor and less important, be of no great value unless he was supported by a large squadron. There was not a shadow of argument in support of that believing in the truth of it, he believed that the smallest physical support to the Consul—sufficient only to preserve him from personal violence—was all that was needed to make his interference perfectly effective. He begged their Lordships to observe that there was a great contradiction in the argument used by his noble Friend. His noble Friend said that on the western coast the Consul's influence was of great importance, because there the trade was carried on by small independent salve trading chieftains; but that on the eastern coast his efficacy would be very little, because there he would have to do with the Portuguese and French Governments, and not with salve-trading chiefs, whom he could coerce. But then, having shown the strength of the Portuguese on that side and the absence of slave-trading chiefs, his noble Friend went on to say that the Portuguese had no strength there, and that the trade was carried on by the Sultan, whose name appeared in the papers, as an independent Power. The argument appeared to be entirely self-destructive. If the Portuguese were so weak that independent Sultans carried on the trade, the earlier part of his noble Friend's speech, that the Counsul would be of no efficacy,

  873
  because his influence would have to be brought to bear on a great Power, and not on independent chiefs, was altogether destroyed. But there was another ground which he begged the Government to consider. There was a power greater than the power of squadrons, and that power they wanted to bring to bear upon the eastern coast. There was the public opinion of the whole civilized world. The main result which he and others believed would come from having a consul on the eastern coast, was that light would be thrown on deeds of darkness, which would render the perpetual perpetration of them impossible. They had now no authorized channels through which to collect information. The slave trade flourished there for the selfsame reason that deeds of violence flourished where those deeds were sheltered form the observation of man. But if they were able to throw the light of civilized Europe upon the actions, not of the Portuguese Government, but of the agents of the Portuguese Government on the eastern coast of Africa, he maintained that connivance at the traffic, not by the government of Portugal, but by the Government agents of Portugal, would be for once and for all prevented, and they would, by a most trivial addition to the expenses of their consular establishments, be striking one of the most fatal blows against the continuance of the oppressive traffic which the power of England had ever struck. It was upon this ground that he most earnestly desired to see Her Majesty's Government issue the necessary directions for the establishment of a consular power on the eastern coast. He asked his noble Friend to leave it in the hands of the Government. Many of those difficulties which were seen last year would now pass away. The conclusion of the treaty with the French Government, and the determination of the French Government to put a stop to the export of the so-called free labourers to Reunion would tend greatly to facilitate the appointment of a Consul. The Consul would be able to check the Portuguese Governors and those who, it was said, forced those Governors to connive at the slave trade, and it that way, the moral sense of the civilized world being brought to bear on the district, the consular power there established, without physical force, would be more effectual than a whole squadron, without the consular power, in checking the slave trade. He held that it was impossible for Dr. Livingstone or any other
  874
  men who were there maintaining the great principles of humanity, to effect that which they desired to see effected, so long as under the seeming shadow of a Christian Power the abomination of the slave trade was suffered to continue. They must by some means make the opportunity in which to sow the good seeds of legitimate commerce. They could not supplant the slave trade where once it had established itself, by merely endeavouring to introduce legitimate commerce, because the returns of the slave trade to the chieftains were more certain and more immediate, and, although destructive in the long run to their own prosperity, it gave on the instant that for which the chieftain craved, and they could not expect the chiefs, in their present state of civilization, to forego the more immediate for the more distant returns of honest trade. They must enforce a cessation of the slave trade. The labours of Dr. Liningstone and others would plant the seeds of lawful commerce, and when those seeds had once sprung up they need not fear a rise of the slave trade again. But they must take steps to secure the opportunity; and he maintained that no measure could be more effectual for that purpose than a measure which would bring to bear on the underlings of the Portuguese Government the influence of our Government, and which, by enabling our Government to speak to facts, would enable them to bring the moral power of this country directly to bear on the whole of that seaboard. While urging his noble Friend not to press his Motion to a division, he hoped that the result of the Motion would not be lost upon the Government, and that this step would be taken, when it could be taken, not as recommended by a hostile majority in that House, but by reason, argument, and by the convictions of the great mass of the educated and intelligent people of this great country.
  LORD STRATHEDENrose to answer the appeal of the noble Lord the President of the council. But, first, he must remark in reference to the statement of the noble Lord the Under Secretary, that as to the activity of the slave trade on the eastern coast of Africa he preferred the evidence of Colonel Rigby, Dr. Livingstone, and our navel officers, indorsed as it was and published by the Foreign Office, to any which the noble Lord the Under Secretary could advance. If the noble Lord the Under Secretary admitted the existence of the slave trade on the eastern coast, he was at least

  875
  incredulous as to the French demand being the foundation of it. Not so Lord John Russell, who, in February, 1860, stated that up to the latest dates French vessels had been shipping slaves at Zanzibar. If anything could show that the Government had no confidence in their own position on the question, it was the attempt to narrow it to a question of detail which Parliament had no right to interfere with. Was it a question of detail whether Great Britain should be true to her policy of fifty years and to her language at this moment? Did not every fact and argument employed show that the question related not to detail but to principle and honour? At the same time the noble Lord who had before had the goodness to attend to him would see that it was not his object to push the House to a division. Since the noble Lord the Foreign Secretary was deliberating, since the Prime Minister had made up his mind, and since the noble Lord the President of the Council, with his wonted prudence, refrained from an opinion on the question, the prospect was as good, perhaps, as their Lordships by a repetition of their vote of last year could make it. He would only venture to express a hope that the noble Lord the Foreign Secretary would go on weighing the question without a prejudice or bias, and that the other House of Parliament might hasten its decision.
  Motion (by leave) withdrawn.

MR. TURNER, R.A., VERNON GALLERY.

  SELECT COMMITTEE APPOINTED.
  On the Motion of Earl GRANVILLE,
  "Select Committee appointed to consider and report in what Manner the Conditions annexed by the Will of the late Mr. Turner, R.A., to the Bequest of his Pictures to the Trustees of the National Gallery can best be carried out: And, having completed such Inquiry, then to consider and report the Measures proper to be taken with respect to the Vernon Galley, and the prospective Measures proper to be taken with respect to any future Gifts of same Kind.
  The Lords following were named of the Committee:—

  Ld. President

  L. Stanley of Alderley.

  M. Lansdowne,

  L. Monteagle of Brandon.

  M. Salisbury.

  L. Elgin.

  M. Northampton.

  L. Overstone.

  E. Derby.

  L. Cranworth.

  E. Stanhope.

  L. St. Leonards.

  L. Foley.

  L. Chelmsford.

  L. Colchester.

  L. Taunton.

  L. Ashburton.

  House adjourned at a quarter past Eight o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.