STATE OF TURKEY—ADDRESS FOR PAPERS. (Hansard, 12 July 1861)

§ VISCOUNT STRATFORD DE REDCLIFFE,

moved that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for Copies or Extracts of any Correspondence which has passed between the Foreign Department and Her Majesty's Embassy at Constantinople in the last and present Years on the Subject of Financial or Administrative Reforms in Turkey, especially of such as were proclaimed in the late Sultan's Hatt-i-homayoon of the Year 1856, and more particularly since the Accession of the reigning Sultan, The noble Lord said, it will be within your Lordship's recollection that about a fortnight ago I put a question to the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs relative to the late demise of the Sultan Abdul Medjid. I did not anticipate at that time that it would be necessary for me to go at any length into the question, because the answer which I received was sufficiently satisfactory; but it may also be within your recollection that my noble and gallant Friend opposite (the Earl of Hardwicke), stimulated by the interest which he takes in all public matters, and especially in this particular subject, made what I may be allowed to call an onslaught, not upon me 779 personally, but upon questions with which I had been intimately connected in Turkey. The rules of the House prevented me from at once going into those observations in the manner which the importance of the question and the authority of my noble and gallant Friend required, and I was, therefore, compelled to announce my intention of bringing the subject before you on another occasion. At this moment I should be glad to be permitted to put off the subject to another day, from personal causes of indisposition, but on looking at the notice paper I find no opportunity will be open to me for another fortnight, and the Session will be so far advanced then that the opportunity will be lost altogether. The noble Earl seemed to be under the impression that the policy pursued by us with respect to Turkey for some years back had been one of an entirely mistaken character, and had been productive of mischief instead of good. If I understood him aright, his impression was that there was not the slightest prospect of any effect being produced on the great interests of that empire, that the reforms which had been adopted were merely of a formal character, and would lead to no consequence, and that the only chance of succeeding was by the conversion of the whole Mussulman population to Christianity. I should be sorry if at a moment that may be called critical in the affairs of Turkeys—that of the transfer of the chief authority from one Sultan to another—any false impression should go abroad of the opinion of this House. It is on that account that I venture to trespass for a few moments on your Lordships' indulgence, not with a view of affording any information to your Lordships, but of calling attention to some points of the subject that ought not to be lost sight of at a time like this, when the supreme power has devolved from one member of the Imperial family to another. It is important to consider whether the system that has been pursued so long in Turkey is to be counteracted by a Sultan of a different character; or, whether, by taking up the late Sultan's policy, he will, by greater energy of character, give hopes that the dangers connected with the state of the empire may be averted. I have already paid what I think is but a fair tribute to the late Sultan, under whose reign of more than twenty years Turkey has undoubtedly made great progress in improvement. I think it would be sad if, now he has passed from life under the shadow of the 780 calamities that clouded the last year of his reign, all that he did for the empire should be subjected to censure and reproach. It is a matter of great interest whether the reforms introduced under his reign shall fall into disuse, or whether, by the proper support of Her Majesty's Government and its allies, we are to realize the expectations formed of them. This, my Lords, is a matter in which this country has a real interest. It is not necessary for me to point out the vast extent of the Turkish empire or the advantages of its extensive commerce with this country. We know that this commerce has been a matter of interest to England for two or three centuries, and that it has lately been considerably increased by trade with Persia and the provinces on the Danube; and this trade may be still further increased for the future. At this moment, when there is a prospect of our suffering severely by the unfortunate events now taking place in America, our commerce with the East is of especial importance. It is the opinion of those well qualified to judge, that much of the soil of Turkey is adapted to the cultivation of cotton. But, of course, no such cultivation can be promoted by British capital unless it is secured by an improved system of legislation in the Turkish Empire. On that ground alone, in addition to others, there is every reason to wish that the reforms that have so often occupied the attention of this country should be carried into effect. We know also that our political influence requires us to attend to our interests in Turkey. If that empire continues to decay, without assistance from Europe, it will be reduced to a state that will excite the attention and ambition of its powerful neighbours, and render necessary some steps to procure a new settlement of Europe. This cannot but be a source of danger—it is shown by the strong steps and the many efforts this country and the other Powers of Europe have made to stave off that peril. The policy of this country, form the earliest period of its connections with the East, proves the interest we have always taken in the affairs of Turkey. In the last century, and even earlier, we interfered between other Powers and the Porte. Of late years the course of events in Turkey has excited apprehensions that that empire is tending to dissolution, and it has been judged necessary to take stronger measures and interfere in a more marked manner to avert the danger apprehended.

781 In several cases during the present century England has interfered, not only by her counsel and mediation, but with fleets and armies. And it is natural to ask the question whether all these costly sacrifices are to be thrown to the winds, or whether we are further to seek to realize the results for which we have so strenuously endeavoured. The alternative presented to us is, whether we will see the whole of that part of Europe engaged for a lengthened period in a sanguinary struggle, and perhaps ourselves take a share in the spoliation, which must be the result of that struggle; or, whether we will take such measures as may prevent the contingency of such a struggle arising at all. I think we should expose ourselves to just reproach, and incur a deep responsibility, if, at a moment of so much importance, we left it at all in doubt whether the policy we have always pursued is to be continued. From the accounts recently received from Constantinople I am inclined to think the course of the present Sultan has been satisfactory. He seems to have acted in a manner that does credit to his wisdom and sense of justice. But, at the same time, we must not confide too entirely on these reports. I think some of these statements are founded on great exaggerations. Thus, we have heard that nearly 2,000 ladies have been dismissed from the late Sultan's seraglio. Now, there are only four of the wives of the Sultan who are recognized by law, but there is a minor rank of wives that extends to three others. But even if we double this number, which would be a fair allowance, we must suppose that each of these ladies had seventy or eighty attendants. I have no doubt that my noble Friend has more authentic information that I can possess, and I trust that he will be able to tell us whether present appearances are such as to justify the hopes which are entertained. Such being the case, it is most important that there should be no mistake as to the opinion of this House. The Sultan will be exposed to unpopularity amongst persons connected with his own immediate circle in prosecuting the reforms which have been promised; it would be most disastrous if that unpopularity were encouraged by any mistaken idea of the feelings of this House, and it would on the other hand, no doubt, cheer him to find that his policy meets with the cordial support and sympathy of Her Majesty's Government. I trust your Lordships will 782 allow that the view I have taken of this subject is consistent with historic truth and with the policy which has long been pursued by this country. I cannot exaggerate the importance of continuing in the same line of policy. But we are told that that policy is useless—that the Turkish Government is exposed to so many dangers that it is impossible to prevent them entirely, and that our utmost efforts cannot guard against that catastrophe which we all dread. There is no doubt as to the extent of the danger to which the Ottoman Empire is exposed, arising from a long continued system of mal-administration, which has reduced that country to its present unsafe, and, in some respects, degraded condition. Still, as I have said, there has been progress in recent times. Strangers who have visited the country have noticed improvements, and have published their observations upon them — especially improvements in the condition of that part of the population which is most entitled to our sympathies—the Greek population. I remember the time when the establishment of a Greek Kingdom was a most popular idea in this country. There were then persons who thought that we were dealing a violent blow to the existence of our old ally by the part we took in the contest which led to the formation of the kingdom of Greece. I took a different view of the matter, and thought I saw ground for expecting great improvement in the condition of the Turkish Empire from the establishment of an independent Greece. How could it have been possible to establish an independent kingdom of Greece without compelling the Turkish Government to improve the condition of the Greek subjects who still remained under its sway? And, again, how could the condition of their Greek subjects be ameliorated without involving an improvement in the condition of the Mussulman population? I believed that I saw a prospect of vast improvement throughout the East. If all the hopes I then entertained have not been entirely realized considerable progress has been made towards their fulfilment, and when we look around us and see what are the reforms attempted in other parts of Europe, and what great changes have taken place during the present century, we must admit that there have been great difficulties in the way of effecting reforms, and that time was required to carry them into complete opera- 783 tion. On the whole, I think that the present aspect of affairs in Turkey is calculated to encourage our hopes, that by persevering in the policy which is disapproved by my noble and gallant Friend we may yet avoid the evils which are apprehended, and succeed in establishing peace and order in that empire. There is another circumstance which we must bear in mind. Notwithstanding the degree of weakness into which Turkey has fallen, there is no doubt about her vast resources; and if, by the due execution of these reforms which have been recorded in treaties, a better state of things could be brought about, those resources will be opened out more fully than they are at present. There is hope of that result being arrived at if we persevere in the same course of policy which we have hitherto adopted. A large portion of the Turkish population are very fanatical in their opinions; and, in order to obtain the complete carrying out of the reforms which have been promised, and which alone can lead to the full development of the resources of Turkey, there must be a steady, friendly, but sufficient pressure upon the Turkish Government But I admit that all these motives for perseverance would be inadequate to prevent hesitation as to our policy if there was not another reason. Beyond the reasons I have given, I must remark that we are positively bound by solemn obligations to support and assist the Turkish Empire to the last extremity. I maintain that the honour of England under our present engagements requires us to use our arms and expend our treasure to prevent the Turkish Empire from falling to pieces; just as we made sacrifices and incurred great risks to redeem our pledges to Portugal early in the present century. If the Turkish Empire is in danger, if it be true that we have a great interest in seeing that Empire placed in a more secure position it is, I say, only consistent in us to do all that lies in our power to redeem our pledges to that country in order to prevent the occurrence of the apprehended mischief. It seems, therefore, plain that we ought to persevere in the policy which we have so long adopted. The House will hardly be surprised that I, although one of the least worthy of its Members, should attempt, before it is too late, to elicit from them an expression of opinion in favour of the maintenance of the Ottoman Empire, in order that the statement of my noble and gallant Friend may not go forth without being accom- 784 panied by some declaration of this House that we should continue to follow that course of policy which has already been attended with great results, and which justifies sanguine hopes for the future. This is the more important, because, in preparing for an apprehended evil, we are not called upon to make any immediate sacrifice nor to embroil ourselves with any other Power; but in persevering in the course I have suggested, we shall obtain, if not the complete fulfilment of our hopes, yet great beneficial results, by giving additional security to our commercial relations, and giving greater stability to the empire which we have undertaken to support. My Lords, I have been unwilling to enter into details on a subject which, in its general bearings, is so well known to all of us; but which, at the same time, is not known to the country at large to the extent that could be desired—a subject, indeed, in respect to which so great a degree of ignorance prevails, that one of the most intelligent writers on such questions has lately made a remark which I take the liberty of reading to your Lordships. The work to which I refer is written in French, and this is its opening sentence— Il est remarquable que, dans I'etat actuel dela politique en Europe, la Turquie, malgre I'importance de son role, malgre la navigation a vapeur, malgre les progres de la statistique moderne continue a etre aussi peu connue comme elle I' etait durant les deux derniers siecles. Although it would be great presumption on my part to suppose that I could convey any instruction in this matter to your Lordships, and still less to Her Majesty's Government, yet it is to be feared that a very large proportion of the people out of doors, who have the means of learning what passes in this House, are in want of information in regard to it. It is of great consequence that the country at large should understand the nature of our relations and interests connected with the Turkish Empire—what is the policy that we have pursued for many years, the obligations under which we have been placed, and the danger against which we have to provide; because how can we expect Her Majesty's Government to feel themselves at liberty to adopt a stronger policy, and, above all, to incur any immediate sacrifices, should that unfortunately be necessary, unless they have an intelligent and instructed public to back them? I humbly conceive, therefore, that I am discharging a duty in drawing attention, even beyond the precincts of this 785 House, to a subject of so much importance, and which, in times like these of great and sudden changes, may perhaps be brought home to our own doors sooner than we expect. It is, my Lords, with much reluctance that, even without entering into details, I have trespassed on your notice, especially at this advanced period of the Session; and most happy should I be if, in retiring from your Lordships' presence, I should feel that I had so fully discharged my duty towards this question that, whatever may happen hereafter, I should never again have to open my mouth upon it. If I have the good fortune to have impressed your Lordship's minds with the truth of the facts and the correctness of the arguments which I have brought forward, I shall hope that, upon reflection and fair consideration of the great and leading points of the question, I shall have the satisfaction of eliciting from Her Majesty's Government a declaration sufficient to an answer the expressions which lately proceeded from a noble and gallant Earl opposite; and to show that the Turkish Government, in its new circumstances, will be adequately encouraged and sustained in the arduous task which it has undertaken, but which it has hitherto been so imperfectly executed. It is surely no exaggeration to say that, in the present state of the world, the Government and the Parliament of England have a great duty to perform in this matter, and that a heavy responsibility must attend any indifference or negligence in its performance. The mission which they have to fulfil is one of the most solemn and sacred nature. It is a mission of knowledge, of freedom, of humanity—a mission dictated by the purest motives, and, I may add, sanctioned by Christian principles. For its due fulfilment, the power and influence which we posses as a nation have been entrusted to us; and it should ever be remembered that any apathy or lukewarmness in respect to that great end may involve the forfeiture of the means. I thank your Lordships for the kindness with which you have listened to me, and beg to conclude by moving the Address of which I have given notice.

LORD WODEHOUSE

said, that his noble Friend spoke with so much authority on all subjects relating to Turkey that it was with some hesitation that any one must differ from him; yet he ventured to think that the present moment was not peculiarly opportune for raising a discussion on internal reforms in the Turkish 786 Empire. He quite agreed with the noble Lord in the general necessity for those reforms in that country; and probably there was not one Member of that House who had paid any attention to the subject who was not of that opinion. Having had occasion more than once to trouble the House with observations of his own on this matter, he was the more reluctant now to repeat what he had already stated; but while concurring in the general necessity of reforms in Turkey, he thought that at the present moment, when there had been a recent change in the reigning Sovereign of that country, and when the Government had had, as they conceived, distinct proofs that the new Sovereign was disposed to inaugurate his reign with salutary reforms, it was more becoming in foreign Powers to wait and see whether the Sultan persevered in the course he had commenced, than by advice which would now be unreasonable and premature, to deprive him, in the eyes both of his own subjects and of Europe, of the credit which he would naturally reap from having begun his rule as he had done. The new Sultan had proclaimed his intentions in the most authoritative manner, by what was called a hatti-scheriff, and from that document, as published, their Lordships would perhaps allow him to quote one or two sentences. The Sultan says— I am firmly resolved on what all the world knows it is, with the help of God, my most earnest desire to increase—the prosperity of the State and the well-being of all my subjects without distinction; and I have confirmed in their entire fulness all the fundamental laws which have up to the present been promulgated and established with a view to promote this happy end, and to insure to all the inhabitants of my dominions life, honour, and the enjoyment of their property. And his Majesty concluded in these words— I also firmly proclaim that my desire for the prosperity of my subjects will know no distinction, and that those of my people who are of different religions or races shall find in me the same justice, the same solicitude, and the same perseverance in assuring their prosperity. The Progressive development of the rich resources with which God has endowed our empire, the true progress of the welfare which is to result therefrom for all who live under the shadow of my imperial power, and the independence of my great empire, shall be the object of my constant thoughts. It was impossible that a more distinct assurance than this could be given that it was the intention of the present Sultan to maintain the laws established by his predecessor, and, what was more to the pur- 787 pose, that he would endeavour to carry out those laws. It was manifestly too early yet to judge of what the result of those promises might be, because it was only a few days since His Majesty had ascended the throne; but it was only due to the new Sultan to say that the actual measures which he had already taken gave an earnest that he did not mean to confine himself to mere words. The Government necessarily had not much information as to events that were so recent; but it appeared certain that the Sultan had taken measures for putting an end to the extravagant expense of the establishment of the late Sultan, thereby destroying one of those abuses which undoubtedly brought most discredit on the late reign. And although the Government were not at all prepared to lay on the table, as his noble Friend rather seemed to expect, the statistics of the late Sultan's seraglio, as his noble Friend had alluded to that subject he might say that the present Sultan shared with his Christian subjects the advantage of having only one wife, and also shared with his Mahommedan subjects that peculiar temperance in wine which was one distinguishing characteristic of their religion. Nothing reflected greater credit on the deceased Sovereign than the way in which he treated the brother who had succeeded him; because him; because it was owing to that treatment that the present Sultan enjoyed that freedom of intercourse with the world, and those opportunities of improving himself which were formerly denied to members of the Imperial family. The present Sultan was believed to be a man of considerable energy of character, and was said to have declared to his Ministers, in the most distinct and earnest manner, his determination to apply his mind and all the power he possessed to the reform of the abuses which prevailed in his empire. It was most desirable that he should have the sympathy and support of the Christian Powers, and in no way could that support be better given than by allowing him time to show to his subjects that it was because he himself saw the necessity of reforms, and not because they had been forced upon him by foreign Powers, that he had adopted them. In that way he would be able to establish his throne far more firmly than he could by carrying out any measures which were dictated to him by foreign Powers. After all, the stability of every Government must depend upon the principles which itself 788 professed, and not upon those which were imposed upon it from without; and if the present Sultan was convinced, as he trusted he was, that the reforms which he had promised were necessary to the safety and welfare of his empire, and showed that he entertained that conviction, he would produce an effect upon his Mussulman subjects and obtain an influence over them such as could not be obtained by any Sovereign the adoption of reforms by whom was suspected by his subjects to have been forced upon him by foreign Powers. He agreed with his noble Friend that this was a most important crisis in the history of the Turkish empire and of its relations with foreign Powers. He was anxious that the Turkish Government should have full leisure to carry out the measures of reform which had been promised: but, at the same time, he admitted that, considering the interest which we must take in the preservation of the independence and integrity of the Turkish Empire, in the maintenance of our treaties, and in the promotion of everything that could conduce to the prosperity of that empire, it would ill become Her Majesty's Government—and he was sure that it was far from their intention—to lose sight of those reforms, to the adoption of which we attached the greatest importance, and which he trusted that the present Sultan would soon carry into effect. If his noble Friend would consent to alter the terms of his Motion, so that it might not include Correspondence during the reign of the present Sultan which was of such extremely recent date, he should have no objection to the production of the papers moved for.