HL Deb 11 July 1861 vol 164 cc689-92

House in Committee (according to order).

Clause I (Means and Substance Mode of Assessment abolished).

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

said, that on reading the Bill he found that it did not, as he at first supposed was the case, abolish this mode of assessment in every parish throughout Scotland, but exempted parishes in which the rate was levied according to established usage. In several places, therefore, means and substance would still continue to be the mode of assessment; and he, therefore, moved an Amendment extending the operation of the Bill in these cases also.

Amendment moved, After ("Ireland") to insert ("and also so much of the Thirty-fifth Section of the said recited Act as makes it lawful for the Parochial Board of any Parish or Parishes to assess such Parish or Parishes according to Local Act or Usage, so far as such Local Act or Usage authorizes the assessment of Means and Substance.")

THE EARL OF EGLINTON

opposed the Amendment. Moreover, the Bill was a Money Bill, and if any Amendment were made in it the other House would reject it altogether. Now their Lordships appeared to be agreed upon the principle of the Bill, and against this objectionable mode of assessment on means and substance. A very few parishes, for the most part rural, where the assessment was now made by private arrangement or by local Act of Parliament, would be exempted from the operation of the Bill, and the slight objection taken by the noble Earl on this score would not, he hoped, induce their Lordships to defeat this measure.

VISCOUNT MELVILLE

supported the Amendment, of the ground that the Bill was a wrong way of doing a right thing.

THE DUKE OF ARGYLL

was far from asserting that this House ought to refrain from amending a Bill because it was a Money Bill, if it contained provisions which were seriously objectionable; but, on the other hand, he thought their Lordships ought not to take advantage of an incidental Amendment moved for the mere purpose of defeating such a measure. Greenock was one of the parishes where the assessment was under a local Act, and he did not think it right in such cases to disturb the assessment existing there. The Amendment was objectionable in itself; its avowed object was to defeat the Bill altogether, and he should, therefore, give his Vote against it.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

complained that the noble Duke had the other evening said that the Bill would be read a second time subject to Amendments in Committee; whereas now he was told that to press an Amendment in Committee would be to defeat the Bill altogether. The Bill as it stood at present was partial in its operation, and he could not understand why what was considered fair for Dundee should not be considered equally fair for Greenock. Believing that, with a view to secure uniformity, it was desirable that the Bill should apply to the whole country, he should certainly press his Amendment.

THE DUKE OF ARGYLL

explained his meaning the other night to be that if any part of the Bill were objectionable in itself their Lordships ought not to be prevented from amending it, but he did not think this was the case here. One the occasion in question he alluded, not to the Amendment of his noble Friend, but to that of a noble Lord now absent from the House, upon a totally different part of the Bill.

THE DUKE OF MONTROSE

supported the Amendment, and expressed his surprise that the Bill should omit certain parishes, while its operation was enforced in others.

THE EARL OF AIRLIE

said, the Amendment proposed by his noble Friend had been suggested during the progress of the Bill in the other House; but after careful consideration it was thought better that the clause should continue in its present shape.

LORD POLWARTH

suggested the postponement of the Bill until next Session, when, he hoped, the whole Poor Law system of Scotland would undergo careful consideration.

On Question, their Lordships divided:—Contents 13; Not-Contents 33: Majority 20.

Amendment negatived.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

proposed another Amendment: After ("is thereby") to leave out ("repealed"), and insert ("Suspended until the 1st day of October, 1862, and to the end of the then next Session of Parliament"). The effect of the Amendment would be to suspend instead of repealing the rating of stock in trade. According to the English law the power of rating stock-in-trade was suspended and not wholly repealed, and his object was to assimulate the law of the two countries in this respect.

THE EARL OF AIRLIE

said, the power of rating stock in trade in England was practically abolished, and thought it not worth while to defeat the Bill altogether for the purpose of carrying out the object which his noble Friend had in view.

THE DUKE OF ARGYLL

also opposed the Amendment.

On Question, their Lordships divided:—Contents 9; Not Contents 29: Majority 20.

Amendment negatived.

Bill reported, without Amendment; and to be read 3a on Monday next.