Lords Sitting of 11 July 1861

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a East India (Civil Service); Turnpike Trusts Arrangements; County Surveyors, &c. (Ireland); Copyright of Designs; Appropriation of Seats (Sudbury and Saint Albans); Drunkenness (Ireland).
2a Tramways (Scotland); Tramways (Ireland) Act Amendment; Industrial Schools (Scotland); Metropolitan Police Force Pensions.
3a Boundaries of Burghs Extension (Scotland) Act Amendment.
Royal Assent.—Cork Infirmary; New Provinces (New Zealand); Offences in Territories near Sierra Leone Prevention; Public Offices Extension; Guildford Hospital; Landed Property Improvement, &c. (Ireland).

THE MERCANTILE MARINE.

  EXPLANATION.
  THE EARL OF HARDWICKEsaid, he thought it but due to himself to make an explanation with respect to some remarks which fell from him a few nights ago in the course of a discussion upon the Naval Reserve Force Bill. He had received from the Mercantile Marine Association of Liverpool a letter protesting against an expression used by him, to the effect that the merchant seamen were not true sailors, but that they were merely persons who understood the propulsion of vessels by steam. He would substitute the word "seaman" for "sailor;" but with that
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  qualification he must adhere to his opinion. All men who were engaged in navigation were sailors; but seamen were men who were perfect in their profession as it was understood under the old system. At the time that he made the observations which were complained of their Lordships were discussing a proposition which he had made, that the officers of the Mercantile Marine should undergo an examination before they took charge of Her Majesty's ships. His reason for making that proposition was that the officers obtained from the merchant service would come principally from the vessels of the large steamship companies, which performed long voyages, and in which steam, instead of being as it was in Her Majesty's ships only an auxiliary, was the principal motive power, and they would, therefore, not have so complete a knowledge of the use of masts and sails as would be required for the efficient management of one of Her Majesty's ships. He did not mean to give any offence; on the contrary, he had a high opinion of the officers of the merchant service; but he had commanded a line-of-battle ship, and had had under his command officers who, having served mainly or exclusively in steamships, did not seem to be aware what could be done with a vessel trusting solely to her masts and sails. Moreover, he believed that in the merchant service the ships were completely rigged and fitted before the officers went on board; and, therefore, he felt himself justified in saying that the officers in that service did not obtain so complete a knowledge of practical seamanship as was possessed by the officers of Her Majesty's Navy. He made this statement because, as he had been misunderstood by the public, he might have been misunderstood by some of their Lordships; and in conclusion he begged to say that he entertained great respect for the officers of the Mercantile Marine.

THE TURNER GALLERY—WILL OF MR. TURNER, R.A.

  MOTION FOR COPY OF WILL.
  LORD ST. LEONARDSsaid, that owing to the absence, through indisposition, of a noble Marquess (the Marquess of Lansdowne) who took a deep interest in the subject, he wished to postpone the Motion of which he had given notice relative to the establishment of a Gallery in which to exhibit the pictures bequeathed

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  to the nation by the late Mr. Turner. As he thought it desirable that their Lordships should have before them the materials by which to form a judgment upon his Resolutions, he begged to move—
  "Copies of the Will and Codicils of the late Mr. Turner, R.A., and of the Decree of Vice Chancellor Kindersley, establishing the Right of the Nation to the Pictures of Mr. Turner given by him to the Public and also of the Representations lately made by the Trustees of the National Gallery to the Treasury upon the Subject of Mr. Turner's Gift of his Picture to the Nation."
  LORD OVERSTONEregretted that it should be found necessary to postpone the discussion, because he thought the matter was one of pressing importance; but he was glad that the noble and learned Lord had moved for the production of further papers. He hoped the subject would receive the careful consideration of their Lordships, for he felt the more the question was looked into the more would it be acknowledged that the present arrangement for the display of these pictures was utterly improper and unsatisfactory, and that their continuance in their present position was inconsistent with good faith to the testamentary directions of the man who had devoted to the use of his country so noble a bequest.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the indisposition of the noble Marquess was one of a merely slight character, and gave no cause for alarm. There would be no objection to the production of the papers now moved for.
  After a few words from Lord MONTEAGLE,
  Motion agreed to.

  TRAMWAYS (IRELAND) ACT AMENDMENT BILL.—SECOND READING.
  Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE.in moving the second reading of the Bill, said, its object was to amend an Act passed in the last Session of Parliament, containing so many stringent provisions that the measure had become a perfect nullity. The Act required that parties desirous of of making tramways should go twice before the grand jury, then appear before the Board of Works, and afterwards appear before the Lord Lieutenant in Council, and afterwards have an Act of Parliament. These cumbrous formalities were necessarily attended with an amount of expense greatly disproportioned to the advantages
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  to be derived from making the tramways; and the intention of the Bill, therefore was to render it necessary for the parties to go before the grand jury once only, and to enable the Lord Lieutenant to finally sanction the work. This Bill proposed to repeal a clause which was inserted in the Act of last year, providing that there should be no deviation of more than thirty feet from a highway; but, as it was necessary that a tramway should be carried on the level, that provision rendered the measure valueless wherever a hill or valley occurred. The Bill would afford many advantages, and he, therefore, hoped their Lordships would read it a second time.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.
  THE EARL OF LUCANopposed the second reading, considering the provisions of the Bill to be very objectionable. The Bill of last Session was carefully considered by a Select Committee, and the principal clause in it, which empowered any company, with the consent of the grand jury, to pass over any man's estate was rejected without even a division. It was proposed by this Bill to restore that clause, and to restore it without many of the securities which were then offered. He challenged the noble Marquess to name any company which had attempted to carry out works under the Act of last Session. He considered the Bill most objectionable, and, therefore, moved that it be read a second time that day six months.
  Amendment moved, to leave out ("now") and insert ("this Day Six Months.")
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, that it was found to be absurd to do anything under the Act of last Session, and no one had attempted to carry out works under its provisions. That was the reason why an Amendment of the Act was sought by this Bill, and it was not likely that any works would be sanctioned by the Lord Lieutenant in Council, by the grand jury, and by a jury of assizes, which were open to sound objections. The Bill gave sufficient protection to landowners, and he hoped that at least their Lordships would consent to examine it in Committee.
  EARL GRANVILLEthought that as the Bill would confer great advantages it was desirable to give it a second reading, and if, on consideration in Committee any further checks were required, they could be then inserted.
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, that if by the repeal of the clause inserted in the Act

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  of last year it was intended that power should be given to take land not within thirty yards of a highway the result would be that a tramway would be first laid down, and then a short Act obtained to turn it into a locomotive line. Practically, it would allow grand juries instead of Parliament to sanction railways in Ireland; and, without wishing to say more about grand juries than they deserved, he must say they were a body easily influenced to do anything, whether right or wrong. The Act last year was carefully considered by a Select Committee, and before a year's trial had been given this Bill was brought in to alter it. It would be far better to have a longer experience of the Act passed last Session before proceeding further with this Bill.
  After a few words from Lord MONTEAGLE and the Earl of WICKLOW,
  THE EARL OF DERBYasked the noble Marquess whether he would have any objection to expunge from the Bill in Committee that clause which repealed the 42nd Clause of the Act of last year, and which consequently gave power to take property without the owner's consent beyond the limits assigned by the Bill of last year? If the noble Marquess would give that assurance, he should have no objection to going on with the Bill, and considering the other clauses in Committee; otherwise he should vote for the Amendment.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, he had no objection to give that assurance, on which understanding
  Amendment (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
  Then the original Motion was agreed to.
  Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.

POOR ASSESSMENTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to order).
  Clause I (Means and Substance Mode of Assessment abolished).
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, that on reading the Bill he found that it did not, as he at first supposed was the case, abolish this mode of assessment in every parish throughout Scotland, but exempted parishes in which the rate was levied according to established usage. In several places, therefore, means and substance would still continue to be the mode
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  of assessment; and he, therefore, moved an Amendment extending the operation of the Bill in these cases also.
  Amendment moved,
  "After ("Ireland") to insert ("and also so much of the Thirty-fifth Section of the said recited Act as makes it lawful for the Parochial Board of any Parish or Parishes to assess such Parish or Parishes according to Local Act or Usage, so far as such Local Act or Usage authorizes the assessment of Means and Substance.")
  THE EARL OF EGLINTONopposed the Amendment. Moreover, the Bill was a Money Bill, and if any Amendment were made in it the other House would reject it altogether. Now their Lordships appeared to be agreed upon the principle of the Bill, and against this objectionable mode of assessment on means and substance. A very few parishes, for the most part rural, where the assessment was now made by private arrangement or by local Act of Parliament, would be exempted from the operation of the Bill, and the slight objection taken by the noble Earl on this score would not, he hoped, induce their Lordships to defeat this measure.
  VISCOUNT MELVILLEsupported the Amendment, of the ground that the Bill was a wrong way of doing a right thing.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLwas far from asserting that this House ought to refrain from amending a Bill because it was a Money Bill, if it contained provisions which were seriously objectionable; but, on the other hand, he thought their Lordships ought not to take advantage of an incidental Amendment moved for the mere purpose of defeating such a measure. Greenock was one of the parishes where the assessment was under a local Act, and he did not think it right in such cases to disturb the assessment existing there. The Amendment was objectionable in itself; its avowed object was to defeat the Bill altogether, and he should, therefore, give his Vote against it.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNcomplained that the noble Duke had the other evening said that the Bill would be read a second time subject to Amendments in Committee; whereas now he was told that to press an Amendment in Committee would be to defeat the Bill altogether. The Bill as it stood at present was partial in its operation, and he could not understand why what was considered fair for Dundee should not be considered equally fair for Greenock. Believing that, with a view to secure uniformity, it was desirable

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  that the Bill should apply to the whole country, he should certainly press his Amendment.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLexplained his meaning the other night to be that if any part of the Bill were objectionable in itself their Lordships ought not to be prevented from amending it, but he did not think this was the case here. One the occasion in question he alluded, not to the Amendment of his noble Friend, but to that of a noble Lord now absent from the House, upon a totally different part of the Bill.
  THE DUKE OF MONTROSEsupported the Amendment, and expressed his surprise that the Bill should omit certain parishes, while its operation was enforced in others.
  THE EARL OF AIRLIEsaid, the Amendment proposed by his noble Friend had been suggested during the progress of the Bill in the other House; but after careful consideration it was thought better that the clause should continue in its present shape.
  LORD POLWARTHsuggested the postponement of the Bill until next Session, when, he hoped, the whole Poor Law system of Scotland would undergo careful consideration.
  On Question, their Lordships divided:—Contents 13; Not-Contents 33: Majority 20.
  Amendment negatived.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNproposed another Amendment: After ("is thereby") to leave out ("repealed"), and insert ("Suspended until the 1st day of October, 1862, and to the end of the then next Session of Parliament"). The effect of the Amendment would be to suspend instead of repealing the rating of stock in trade. According to the English law the power of rating stock-in-trade was suspended and not wholly repealed, and his object was to assimulate the law of the two countries in this respect.
  THE EARL OF AIRLIEsaid, the power of rating stock in trade in England was practically abolished, and thought it not worth while to defeat the Bill altogether for the purpose of carrying out the object which his noble Friend had in view.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLalso opposed the Amendment.
  On Question, their Lordships divided:—Contents 9; Not Contents 29: Majority 20.
  Amendment negatived.
  Bill reported, without Amendment; and to be read 3a on Monday next.

  HARBOURS BILL.—COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  THE MARQUESS OF NORMANBYsaid, he had not opposed the second reading of this Bill, but on that occasion he thought it necessary to say a few words on the special injustice with which he thought the town of Whitby was treated. These dues had been levied there for a century and a half, and by an Act of Parliament passed in 1827 they were made perpetual. By the present Bill these dues were abolished without any compensation whatever. He objected to this as a peculiar hardship on the town of Whitby. It had been stated that the harbour of Whitby was useless, but that statement was not consistent with the fact. Not doubt that owing to the increased size in the tonnage of ships, some of the harbours referred to in the Act no longer fulfilled the purpose for which they were adapted when the tolls were granted; but as regards Whitby he was enabled to state that within the last six years upwards of 3,000 colliers had taken refuge in that harbour during storms. He did not seek for any special indulgence for Whitby, but he felt it to be his duty towards his neighbours to correct the misrepresentations that had been made.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, the people of Whitby could not complain of being taken by surprise by the Bill as the subject had been before Parliament for several years. Their Lordships should bear in mind that it was ships passing the harbour that paid these tolls, and not those entering the harbour. In the case of Whitby the levying of these tolls was far more objectionable than in any of the other three harbours referred to in the Bill; for its harbour was dry at low water, and had only twelve feet of water over the bar in ordinary tides, with sixteen or seventeen in spring tides. Whitby was now no longer noted for blubber boiling, but had become a fashionable watering-place, for which purpose it was better adapted than a harbour. He did not think the town had been harshly treated, as sufficient tolls would remain to keep the harbour in repair.
  THE MARQUESS OF NORMANBYrepeated that he thought Whitby had been treated harshly.
  Amendments made; the Report thereof to be received on Monday next, and Bill to be printed as amended. [No. 187.]

  LEICESTERE SQUARE.—QUESTION.
  LORD REDESDALEinquired, Whether the Attention of the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Works or of the Metropolitan Board of Works has been directed to the manner in which the Garden in Leicester Square, in the City of Westminster, is now and may be hereafter occupied? The noble Lord said he had thought it right to call their Lordships attention to the subject, because some facts had come under his notice in his official capacity which he thought ought to be generally known. Their Lordships would remember that some years ago the centre of this square was a garden—certainly a very neglected one, but still a good open space. About ten years back there arose up in the middle of it a building for the exhibition of what was called "the Great Globe," but no one knew by whose authority. However, very little inquiry was made about it, and the building was erected without any opposition. It was said that the place had become a nuisance, and that it would be greatly improved by what was being done. In 1852 a private Bill was introduced into Parliament entitled "Leicester Square Improvement and Ownership of Square or Garden Bill." It provided for the improvement of Leicester Square, and secured to "James Wyld the unconditional enjoyment of the enclosed garden or area of the said square." It was set forth in the preamble that Mr. Wyld had purchased the fee simple of the ground, and that the same was duly conveyed to him, but that "nevertheless divers persons claimed to be entitled to some right over the same." The Bill provided that Mr. Wyld should have power to maintain or pull down the existing building, and to erect another for a literary institution, or a bazaar, or for other purposes connected with science and art, public instruction, or public amusement. This Bill was introduced, but proceeded no further, and was dropped; but it proved distinctly that Mr. Wyld, whatever limited right of possession he might have acquired, did not possess a right or title to do that which he had done upon the property. Two years afterwards another Bill was introduced, to enable the "Cosmos Institute" to purchase Mr. Wyld's interests in the area of Leicester Square. This Bill in like manner was dropped; but during the present year another Bill was introduced, called the "Leicester Square Gardens Company Bill," enabling the "Owners of Leicester Square Gardens to place them in the hands of Commissioners who should
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  have the power of erecting a museum or other exhibition buildings on the site." This Bill was also withdrawn. These private Bills showed that the parties in the occupation of the centre of Leicester Square felt that they had no title to the property, or at any rate that they were conscious of some defect in their title. It was for the public interest that the square should be cleared, as it was the only open space between Hyde Park and Lincoln's Inn Fields. It was of the utmost importance that where there were open spaces in densely populated neighbourhoods, as was the case of Leicester Square, the enjoyment of them should be secured to the public. The parties resident in the locality were not indifferent to what was going on, for since his notice appeared upon the paper he had received several communications on the subject. He yesterday received a letter signed by what appeared to be a majority of residents in the square, thanking him for having taken up the subject, and mentioning that the encroachments on the enclosure had long been felt to be an injustice by the surrounding inhabitants, and that the state of the building in the centre was a disgrace to the locality. They also expressed a hope that his timely intervention might be the means of restoring the square to its unencumbered state. He understood that some years back the property in question was the subject of litigation in Chancery, and was divided among various claimants. He was unable to give any positive information on the matter, but he had no doubt that the residents were practically, though, perhaps, not with sufficient precision, secured in their right to the enjoyment of the gardens under the original covenant when the houses were built, and that nothing had occurred to deprive them of that right. By one of the clauses of the Metropolis Local Management Act persons were not permitted, without the sanction of the Board, to encroach with buildings upon their own gardens when they were within a short distance of the highway, and there ought certainly to be some means of preserving open spaces, such as these gardens. He did not know what power the Government had of interfering in the matter, but he begged to ask the noble Earl the President of the Council whether the attention of the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Works or of the Metropolitan Board of Works had been directed to the manner in which Leicester Square was now or might be occupied?
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that the public were much indebted to the noble Lord for calling attention to this subject, which was really of some importance. He was sure their Lordships must all agree with the noble Lord in holding that it was very desirable that open spaces in the Metropolis should be secured against encroachment and occupation as much as possible. The state of Leicester Square had been for some time under the consideration of the Chief Commissioner of Works; but it had not yet been decided whether the Board could interfere in the matter, or what measures it was necessary to take. He had no doubt, however, that some decision would be arrived at before long.
  LORD OVERSTONEsaid, that as one the churchwardens of the parish of St. Martin's-in-the-Fields, in which two sides of Leicester Square were situated, he had that morning been waited on by his brother churchwarden and several respectable inhabitants of the Square, who had requested him to render any assistance which he could to the noble Lord opposite in regard to this matter. Leicester Square was becoming every day more of a public thoroughfare, and, in addition to the unsightliness of the structure which had been erected in the centre, and the accumulation of everything that was filthy, unseemly, and improper which existed in the enclosure, scenes took place there at a late hour which were most discreditable to the Metropolis, and for the prevention of which it was absloutely necessary that some measures should be adopted.

RAILWAY ACCIDENTS.

  QUESTION.
  THE MARQUESS OF WESTMEATHinquired of Her Majesty's Government, in consequence of what had transpired by the recent Verdict of a Coroner's Inquest respecting the Death of an Individual employed upon the North Staffordshire Railway in conducting a Locomotive Engine, and which the Jury found was occasioned by undue Speed, whether it may be in their Contemplation to propose any Amendment of the Law to control the Speed of Railway Engines in future within reasonable Limits?
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that it was not the intention of Her Majesty's Government to introduce any such measure as that referred to by the noble Marquess, and they had been strengthened in that determination by the fact that the Com-
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  mittee on Railway Accidents had declined to recommend any direct interference by Parliament as to the extreme speed at which railway trains should be permitted to travel.
  VISCOUNT DUNGANNONsaid, that railway accidents often occurred through reckless driving, with a view to make up for lost time. The matter, however, as one with which, under all the circumstances, it was not very easy to deal by legislation.
  House adjourned at a quarter-past Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.