SECOND READING. (Hansard, 4 July 1861)

THE EARL OF CAITHNESS
, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said, that the object of the measure was—not to give power to run locomotives upon common roads, because that power already existed—but it proposed to provide for the regulation of tolls, so that they might not be practically prohibitory to locomotives upon roads. Some years ago a gentleman at Manchester demonstrated by experiment that engines of this kind could be successfully and with economy used on ordinary roads, by using a locomotive for the haulage of coals a distance of about seven miles, and it appeared that the cost of the carriage was 2s. per ton, instead of 3s. 6d., which was the expense of horse power. The locomotive, however, had to pass through two turnpikes, and the tolls levied amounted to 4s. per ton, while if the coals were hauled by horse power the tolls were only 3½d. per ton. There could, of course, be no fair chance of success under such circumstances. One advantage which locomotives upon common roads had over waggons drawn by horses was the much less space they occupied. He had recently seen the crank shaft for the Black Prince drawn from Mr. Penn's factory by one of Bray's engines. The shaft, together with the truck, weighed 38 tons, and if horse power had been employed a great number of animals and men would have been required to perform a task which was performed by a single engine with perfect ease. Some persons apprehended danger to the public from the use of these engines upon common roads; but the Bill contained a provision giving power to the Secretary of State to prohibit the use of any engine, upon representations being made to him by the proper authorities 287 that it exposed the public to any danger. For his own part, he (the Earl of Caithness) did not believe that any danger would arise from the use of engines. In 1802 a locomotive was used on a common road in Cornwall, and subsequently was exhibited in the ground now occupied by Euston Square. Mr. Scott Russell also ran one for the conveyance of passengers between Paisley and Glasgow; but so great was the objection of the local authorities to it that they covered the road with many inches of broken stones, which only had the effect of diverting all the horse traffic elsewhere. Mr. Scott Russell persevered with his locomotive for a considerable time; but, as he wore out two pairs of wheels every journey he was compelled to abandon the experiment. Objections had also been raised that the use the engines would injure the roads, but he was of opinion that the wheels of an engine would not cause so much damage to a road as the feet of a number of horses drawing heavy loads. The noble Earl then read several letters from leading engineering firms, testifying to the value of these locomotives in removing large boilers and other machinery from their factories. In some parts of the country the appearance of these traction engines occasionally astonished and perplexed the unsophisticated inhabitants. While riding on one of them in his own neighbourhood one day he passed the door of a cottage where a little boy was standing. The lad was astonished at the novel sight, and called out to his father, who was inside, "Come, and see! the carrier's cart has taken fire, and his horse has run away." In another instance, when a locomotive came to a turnpike with the steam full on, the tollkeeper, on being asked what there was to pay, replied with evident trepidation, "Oh! nothing, nothing! drive on, dear Mister Devil, as fast as you can." The noble Earl concluded by earnestly requesting their Lordships to give the Bill a second reading.

THE EARL OF EGLINTON
had not paid any very great attention to this Bill, but could not help thinking it a measure of considerable importance, and one, therefore, which their Lordships ought not to pass without due deliberation. It appeared that these engines were not new, but had been first used in 1802. If that were so, the fact was not much in their favour, because although they had been 288 long before the world they had certainly not made any very rapid strides in public estimation. He was not aware of anybody but the noble Earl opposite who had yet set up a private steam carriage of his own. No doubt traction engines might be very useful in conveying heavy loads for short distances; but this Bill went much further, and would legalize their use on roads generally. The measure, in his opinion, was rather premature, there being no general demand in the country for such legislation; and before they passed it they should see what were the grounds on which they were asked to legislate on the subject. He could not but think that the use of locomotives on common roads would give rise to dangerous accidents. Horses would be apt to take fright at them, and human life might as a consequence be jeopardized. Nothing was said in the Bill as to the width of the roads in which they were to be allowed to run. It would not be sufficient to enable the Secretary of State to check their employment in certain cases: the same power ought to be vested in the municipal authorities of boroughs; while in Scotland the right to interdict them should be given to the sheriffs of counties. These were, indeed, points of detail, but they suggested the propriety of the House pausing before it rashly assented to the measure.

§ EARL GRANVILLE
thought the noble Earl could not have listened very attentively to the clear and able speech in which the second reading of the Bill had been moved. It was a mistake to say that this Bill legalized the use on common roads of these locomotives, which, in some out of the way districts might perhaps frighten a few peasant boys, tollkeepers, and some other timid animals of that kind. Their use was already legal, and the only object of the measure was to regulate the tolls chargeable upon them, which in some instances reached a prohibitory rate. The Government having considered the Bill saw no objection to its provisions, and he trusted their Lordships would not refuse to adopt it.

THE EARL OF EGLINTON
said, what he had meant was that the Bill would have the effect of legalizing the use of these engines in Scotland. At present, if any one applied to the sheriff to stop these locomotives from running on the public roads, the sheriff would, no doubt, interdict them. But, if the Bill passed, it would give a sanction to their use.

LORD BELHAVEN
was understood to deny that sheriffs in Scotland had interdicted the use of these engines when applied to for that purpose.
After a few words from the Earl of DONOUGHMORE,

§ LORD REDESDALE
said, he would not oppose the second reading; but he thought the Bill of extreme importance, and he hoped the noble Earl (the Earl of Caithness) would have no objection to its being referred to a Select Committee. There were many points in which the Bill was defective. It contained no provision whatever as to what a "locomotive" was to be, and it was exceedingly important that they should lay down proper rules on that head, so as to secure the public as much as possible from inconvenience arising from their construction. He was not satisfied that the tolls to be levied were so high as they ought to be. All that the Bill said was that these vehicles were to pay a toll more or less in proportion to the number of their wheels. At all events, they should specify proper rules as to construction. Indeed, he believed it was already provided that the locomotives should not be more than seven feet wide. A provision ought to be inserted that when they exceeded a certain weight they should not pass over bridges. If this Bill went before a Select Committee its provisions might be rendered much safer, and some evils might be remedied. He had no unfavourable feeling towards the Bill, but he thought that the public security should be ensured.

THE DUKE OF MONTROSE
concurred in the suggestion that the Bill should undergo the revision of a Select Committee. He thought there was not much probability of these locomotives coming into general use.

THE EARL OF EGMONT
hoped the noble Earl who had charge of the Bill would not consent to its being sent to a Select Committee.

§ LORD REDESDALE
proposed to commit the Bill to a Select Committee.

§ EARL GRANVILLE
confessed he saw no reason why certain noble Lords were anxious to send every Bill to Select Committees from which the public were excluded. Surely the Amendments to be proposed could suitably be introduced in a Committee of the Whole House.
Subject dropped.