Lords Sitting of 4 July 1861

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a East India (High Courts of Judicature); London Coal and Wine Dues Continuance; Labourers' Cottages; Metropolitan Police Force Pensions; Tramways (Ireland) Act Amendment.
2a Harbours; Locomotives.
3a Portpatrick Harbour (Scotland); Officers of Reserve (Royal Navy).

HARBOURS BILL.

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY, in moving the second reading of this Bill, explained that its object was to afford facilities to local authorities for raising funds in order to construct new or improve existing harbours. The proposal was that the Public Works Loan Commissioners should be empowered to grant advances for harbour improvements on application made by the local authorities and sanctioned by the Board of Trade. The money was to be repaid within fifty years. When the money borrowed did not exceed £100,000 the interest was to be 3 1/4 per cent, and any amount exceeding that sum was to pay a higher rate, but not more than 5 per cent. The Bill also proposed to abolish "passing tolls" from and after the 1st of January, 1862. These tolls were levied on vessels passing four ports on the Eastern coasts—Bridlington, Whitby, Ramsgate, and Dover. In some of these cases the harbours did not at all answer their purpose as harbours of refuge, inasmuch as at low states of tides they were incapable of being entered by the vessels which were, nevertheless, called upon to pay the tolls. They amounted altogether to £35,000 a year, and as money had been advanced on their security it was proposed, in respect of the debts of Bridlington and Whitby, to transfer them to the Exchequer. With regard to Ramsgate no debt existed; and although on Dover harbour there was a debt of £8,000 or £9,000, there was ample property to be handed over to new trustees as security for that amount. The Bill abolished all dues levied by certain authorities for charitable purposes, making provision for existing pensions. The Bill also dealt with the differential duties on foreign shipping. In consequence of reciprocity
  282
  treaties, by which foreign shipping was placed on the same footing as British, Parliament had undertaken the payment of these dues to the corporations, Trinity House, and other institutions which in different towns were entitled to receive them. In 1826, which was the date of most of the reciprocity treaties, they amounted to no more than £10,000 a year; but in consequence of the great increase of foreign shipping they now amounted to £58,000 a year, with every prospect of their continuing to increase. It was most important to relieve the Exchequer from payment of these dues; but, as certain engagements had been made on the faith of their being continued, it was proposed that the abolition should not take place until 1872, by which time sufficient money would have been paid to meet those engagements. He thought that by giving the present recipients of the shipping dues ten years notice of their entire abolition, they could bring no charge against Her Majesty's Government that they had taken the harbour trustees by surprise, and they would also be enabled to make full provision for the contemplated changes. At Dublin there was a payment of £4,000 a year, originally imposed in respect of the harbour of Dunleary, which would also be abolished. It was proposed to make an alteration in the Dover and Ramsgate trusts. The Ramsgate trust would be transferred to the Board of Trade until further provision was made by Parliament. It had been suggested that it should be handed over to the London, Chatham, and Dover Railway Company; but for that purpose another Act of Parliament would be necessary. The Dover trust would be transferred to seven trustees, of which the Lord Warden would be President, and nominees of the Board of Trade, the Board of Admiralty, the South Eastern Railway, and the London and Chatham Railway would be members, as well as a certain number elected by the Corporation. This arrangement, he believed, afforded general satisfaction to the town. The Bill had received the general concurrence of all parties interested. It would clear up a number of questions which had been long agitated, and it would confer great benefit on the mercantile interests of the country. He hoped, therefore, that their Lordships would agree to read it a second time.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a
  THE MARQUESS OF NORMANBY, although he approved of the principle of

  283
  the Bill, and had no intention of opposing the second reading, yet thought it highly important that their Lordships should clearly understand what they were about to do. He had no objection, of course, to the provisions for advancing money for the improvement of harbours; but in regard to the abolition of passing tolls it behoved their Lordships to consider well what that proposition really was. The passing tolls had been granted to the Commissioners of Whitby Harbour by Queen Anne, and renewed by subsequent Parliaments, and, finally, in 1826, Parliament declared that they were to continue for ever. He did not mean to say that it did not lie in the wisdom of Parliament to correct the legislation of times gone by; but still, the assurance of their being continued for ever ought to induce their Lordships to pause before they did away with them. It was true that the debt would be thrown upon the Consolidated Fund, but there was no provision made for those objects for which the toll was originally imposed. As to these harbours not being generally accessible, he could only say that in the course of six years 3,707 vessels had taken refuge in Whitby. He should like to see a longer time given to the Harbour Commissioners, that they might have an opportunity of creating a new fund.
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREsaid, at the time these tolls were imposed vessels were much smaller than at present, and the harbour of Whitby might, therefore, at that time be used as a harbour of refuge; but it was of little or no use now; and in consequence of the state of the harbours on the eastern coast the witnesses examined before the Harbour Commission recommended the expenditure of large sums of money in the construction of harbours on the coast at Hartlepool, Filey, and the mouth of the Tyne. He thought the Government were quite right in abolishing the dues levied for the support of Whitby as a harbour of refuge. He should like to know how much of the debt of £46,000 owing by the Commissioners of the Dover Harbour would be paid by the Treasury, and how much out of the local funds. As to the charities supported by funds levied on shipping in certain ports, he thought there ought to be a clause in the Bill prohibiting the managers of the charities from appointing fresh pensioners on these funds. With regard to the compensation paid to charitable corporations,
  284
  their Lordships were, perhaps, not aware that the Hull Trinity House, in 1860, received from the country for differential dues alone the sum of £13,000. This sum, which was extracted from the public purse, was not applied to the improvement of the harbour or to the benefit of shipping in any way, but went to increase the funds of a charity whose operations were, he believed, absolutely injurious to the town. With regard to Ramsgate Harbour he should have preferred its being transferred to the Admiralty rather than to the Board of Trade. The local authorities of Ramsgate had for many years levied tolls on shipping in aid of its local taxation, and an Act was passed some years ago empowering the town Commissioners to levy a tax of 2s. a ton on coal coming into the port, and on the security of this tax, coupled with their rating powers, they borrowed a sum of £18,700. The Bill exempted coal in certain cases from this tax, and as the security on which the money was advanced was thereby affected, he should like to know if the parties advancing the money had given their consent to that clause. We had adopted a free trade policy, and now ought to remove all restrictions on trade. The Commissioners of many harbours, particularly on the eastern and southern coast, in some cases on the authority of Parliament and in other cases on the authority of charters, now levied considerable taxes on shipping, which were not applied to the improvement of the harbours, but to the purposes of the town, such as paving and lighting, in relief of the local rates. That, he thought, was indefensible in principle; and if such a proposition were made now on behalf of any town in England he was quite certain that neither the other House of Parliament nor their Lordships would listen to it for a moment.
  LORD TAUNTONexpressed his great gratification at the prospect of this intricate and complicated question, which had long been a source of complaint on the part of the shipping interest of this country, being at last satisfactorily settled. At the same time he must agree that, in strict justice, the price which the public were to pay to the local authorities for the abandonment of their rights was rather high. He well remembered the contest to which the Bill introduced a few years ago on the same subject, and which was one of strict justice, gave rise in Parliament. He could himself never understand

  285
  the claim which these local corporations had to tax the shipping interest of the country for their own local benefit. It always appeared to him that their powers were for public purposes, and that the dues they collected could not be brought within the category of private property. Therefore, he never had any scruple in supporting the principle of that Bill; but the Government of that day could not cope with the opposition which it encountered; the defenders of these local interests were active and zealous, and the Government was not sufficiently powerful for them. He believed, however, that the present Government had made a good bargain for the public, since at the end of ten years these dues were entirely to cease, and great credit was due to the President of the Board of Trade for having managed to pass the measure through the House of Commons with very little opposition on the part of local interests. He could not help agreeing with the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Donoughmore) that, as the navigation laws had been abolished it became the duty of Parliament and the Government to lose no opportunity of removing every disadvantage and burden under which the merchant shipping of this country laboured, in consequence of the complete competition with their foreign rivals to which they were now exposed. Some of these burdens still remained; but he trusted that in a short time they would be entirely swept away. In abolishing the system of protection which formerly existed they had done not only no injury, but the greatest benefit to the shipping interest; but while he said that, he thought that the fact of exposing them to the competition of the whole world gave them the strongest claim to every assistance and support which, consistently with sound principle, could be extended to them.
  THE MARQUESS OF NORMANBYsaid, the reason why the trustees of Whitby Harbour had not paid off the debt was that they had entered upon extensive works for the improvement of the harbour.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYexpressed his satisfaction at the speeches of two noble Lords who had just spoken, and said that he, too, hoped that what little remained to be done upon this matter would soon be accomplished. He rejoiced to see the reception the Bill had met with, and he would mention that when the Bill
  286
  was originally introduced five years' compensation was proposed, but that term was afterwards extended to ten years. This amount of compensation was, in fact, the price which the Government had agreed to pay for purchase of certain advantages and the price he did not regret, considering the benefits which would be derived.
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.

LOCOMOTIVES BILL.

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE EARL OF CAITHNESS, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said, that the object of the measure was—not to give power to run locomotives upon common roads, because that power already existed—but it proposed to provide for the regulation of tolls, so that they might not be practically prohibitory to locomotives upon roads. Some years ago a gentleman at Manchester demonstrated by experiment that engines of this kind could be successfully and with economy used on ordinary roads, by using a locomotive for the haulage of coals a distance of about seven miles, and it appeared that the cost of the carriage was 2s. per ton, instead of 3s. 6d., which was the expense of horse power. The locomotive, however, had to pass through two turnpikes, and the tolls levied amounted to 4s. per ton, while if the coals were hauled by horse power the tolls were only 3½d. per ton. There could, of course, be no fair chance of success under such circumstances. One advantage which locomotives upon common roads had over waggons drawn by horses was the much less space they occupied. He had recently seen the crank shaft for the Black Prince drawn from Mr. Penn's factory by one of Bray's engines. The shaft, together with the truck, weighed 38 tons, and if horse power had been employed a great number of animals and men would have been required to perform a task which was performed by a single engine with perfect ease. Some persons apprehended danger to the public from the use of these engines upon common roads; but the Bill contained a provision giving power to the Secretary of State to prohibit the use of any engine, upon representations being made to him by the proper authorities

  287
  that it exposed the public to any danger. For his own part, he (the Earl of Caithness) did not believe that any danger would arise from the use of engines. In 1802 a locomotive was used on a common road in Cornwall, and subsequently was exhibited in the ground now occupied by Euston Square. Mr. Scott Russell also ran one for the conveyance of passengers between Paisley and Glasgow; but so great was the objection of the local authorities to it that they covered the road with many inches of broken stones, which only had the effect of diverting all the horse traffic elsewhere. Mr. Scott Russell persevered with his locomotive for a considerable time; but, as he wore out two pairs of wheels every journey he was compelled to abandon the experiment. Objections had also been raised that the use the engines would injure the roads, but he was of opinion that the wheels of an engine would not cause so much damage to a road as the feet of a number of horses drawing heavy loads. The noble Earl then read several letters from leading engineering firms, testifying to the value of these locomotives in removing large boilers and other machinery from their factories. In some parts of the country the appearance of these traction engines occasionally astonished and perplexed the unsophisticated inhabitants. While riding on one of them in his own neighbourhood one day he passed the door of a cottage where a little boy was standing. The lad was astonished at the novel sight, and called out to his father, who was inside, "Come, and see! the carrier's cart has taken fire, and his horse has run away." In another instance, when a locomotive came to a turnpike with the steam full on, the tollkeeper, on being asked what there was to pay, replied with evident trepidation, "Oh! nothing, nothing! drive on, dear Mister Devil, as fast as you can." The noble Earl concluded by earnestly requesting their Lordships to give the Bill a second reading.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.
  THE EARL OF EGLINTONhad not paid any very great attention to this Bill, but could not help thinking it a measure of considerable importance, and one, therefore, which their Lordships ought not to pass without due deliberation. It appeared that these engines were not new, but had been first used in 1802. If that were so, the fact was not much in their favour, because although they had been
  288
  long before the world they had certainly not made any very rapid strides in public estimation. He was not aware of anybody but the noble Earl opposite who had yet set up a private steam carriage of his own. No doubt traction engines might be very useful in conveying heavy loads for short distances; but this Bill went much further, and would legalize their use on roads generally. The measure, in his opinion, was rather premature, there being no general demand in the country for such legislation; and before they passed it they should see what were the grounds on which they were asked to legislate on the subject. He could not but think that the use of locomotives on common roads would give rise to dangerous accidents. Horses would be apt to take fright at them, and human life might as a consequence be jeopardized. Nothing was said in the Bill as to the width of the roads in which they were to be allowed to run. It would not be sufficient to enable the Secretary of State to check their employment in certain cases: the same power ought to be vested in the municipal authorities of boroughs; while in Scotland the right to interdict them should be given to the sheriffs of counties. These were, indeed, points of detail, but they suggested the propriety of the House pausing before it rashly assented to the measure.
  EARL GRANVILLEthought the noble Earl could not have listened very attentively to the clear and able speech in which the second reading of the Bill had been moved. It was a mistake to say that this Bill legalized the use on common roads of these locomotives, which, in some out of the way districts might perhaps frighten a few peasant boys, tollkeepers, and some other timid animals of that kind. Their use was already legal, and the only object of the measure was to regulate the tolls chargeable upon them, which in some instances reached a prohibitory rate. The Government having considered the Bill saw no objection to its provisions, and he trusted their Lordships would not refuse to adopt it.
  THE EARL OF EGLINTONsaid, what he had meant was that the Bill would have the effect of legalizing the use of these engines in Scotland. At present, if any one applied to the sheriff to stop these locomotives from running on the public roads, the sheriff would, no doubt, interdict them. But, if the Bill passed, it would give a sanction to their use.
  LORD BELHAVENwas understood to deny that sheriffs in Scotland had interdicted the use of these engines when applied to for that purpose.
  After a few words from the Earl of DONOUGHMORE,
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, he would not oppose the second reading; but he thought the Bill of extreme importance, and he hoped the noble Earl (the Earl of Caithness) would have no objection to its being referred to a Select Committee. There were many points in which the Bill was defective. It contained no provision whatever as to what a "locomotive" was to be, and it was exceedingly important that they should lay down proper rules on that head, so as to secure the public as much as possible from inconvenience arising from their construction. He was not satisfied that the tolls to be levied were so high as they ought to be. All that the Bill said was that these vehicles were to pay a toll more or less in proportion to the number of their wheels. At all events, they should specify proper rules as to construction. Indeed, he believed it was already provided that the locomotives should not be more than seven feet wide. A provision ought to be inserted that when they exceeded a certain weight they should not pass over bridges. If this Bill went before a Select Committee its provisions might be rendered much safer, and some evils might be remedied. He had no unfavourable feeling towards the Bill, but he thought that the public security should be ensured.
  THE DUKE OF MONTROSEconcurred in the suggestion that the Bill should undergo the revision of a Select Committee. He thought there was not much probability of these locomotives coming into general use.
  THE EARL OF EGMONThoped the noble Earl who had charge of the Bill would not consent to its being sent to a Select Committee.
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill read 2a accordingly.
  LORD REDESDALEproposed to commit the Bill to a Select Committee.
  EARL GRANVILLEconfessed he saw no reason why certain noble Lords were anxious to send every Bill to Select Committees from which the public were excluded. Surely the Amendments to be proposed could suitably be introduced in a Committee of the Whole House.
  Subject dropped.

STEAM COMMUNICATION BETWEEN IRELAND AND NORTH AMERICA.

  QUESTION.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEasked Her Majesty's Government, What Steps they proposed to take for the Re-establishment of a direct Postal and Steam-Packet Communication between Ireland and North America? The Postmaster General, on the 15th of May, put an end to the contract with the Royal Atlantic Mail Steam Navigation Company, whereby provision had been made for a regular packet service direct between Galway and North America. He would not say one word as to the justice or injustice of that proceeding, because the matter was now being investigated by a Committee of the House of Commons. He apprehended, however, that that inquiry would be limited to an investigation of the circumstances under which the contract had been terminated; but, as he understood, the contract was absolutely at an end, and no proposition had been made for its renewal. He thought, therefore, he was justified in asking the present information from the Government. He would remind the House that, although the way in which the contract to which he referred had been carried out had been brought in question, the propriety of having a continuous direct service between North America and Ireland had never been questioned: on the contrary, it had been acknowledged by every one who took part in the discussion in the House of Commons that great advantage was derived from having speedy communication by that route. Only yesterday an illustration was afforded of the value of such a service. The important intelligence received from New York was ten days old; whereas no one could deny that one result of the experience of the last year was to show that it was perfectly practicable to have direct communication between Ireland and the United States within six days. It was, therefore, important to ascertain whether the Government had done anything towards the reestablishment of the service. The Company to which he referred said they had not sufficient time allowed them to prepare vessels for the postal service. That was a point on which he would express no opinion, though he must remark that it had always been considered that some time must elapse before any Company could perform a service of such a nature satisfactorily. If he understood the matter right-

  291
  ly, the contract which had existed during the past year was now completely at an end. Even if the case were otherwise a new contract would be desirable, inasmuch as the last included conditions which, he believed, were never imposed on any Company before. A Bill relating to the improvement of Galway Harbour would shortly be brought before their Lordships, and that was an additional reason why this subject should receive full consideration. Direct postal service between Ireland and North America was, in his opinion, so important that the Government ought to lose no time in making preparations for re-establishing it in such a manner that the public would be satisfied that it would be well and properly carried out and permanently maintained.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, his noble Friend had, in fact, anticipated the answer which he would be obliged to give; and would not, therefore, be surprised when he said that he must decline to express any opinion on the subject until the Committee of the House of Commons appointed to inquire into the circumstances under which the Galway contract had been terminated had made its Report. He was sure his noble Friend must see that it would be premature for him to make any statement at that moment. He would, however, remind his noble Friend that Ireland at present enjoyed postal communication with America by means of no fewer than three services weekly. The Cunard line of packets which left Liverpool on the Saturday touched at Queenstown on the Sunday, and took on letters from Ireland, as well as letters sent on by the Saturday evening mail from London. The Liverpool, Philadelphia, and New York line, commonly known as "Inman's," started from Liverpool on the Wednesday and touched at Queenstown on the next day. There was a third service by the Canadian line of packets, which left Liverpool every Thursday and touched at Londonderry every Friday. Thus, on Sundays, on Thursdays, and on Fridays there was direct postal communication between Ireland and America. The only advantage derived from the Galway packets was that once a fortnight there was an additional service on Tuesday. He, therefore, did not anticipate that any material inconvenience, as far as postal communication was concerned, was at present experienced in consequence of the discontinuance of the Galway line. But he was quite ready
  292
  to admit that there was very great advantage in the more rapid communication with St. John's and the much later telegraphic communication by that means with America, and that advantage was obtained in a greater degree by the Galway than by any other line. Their Lordships would see that under the circumstances it was quite impossible for him to express, on the part of the Government, any intimation of what their views might be with regard to any future arrangements for direct postal communication between Ireland and America.

DILAPIDATION OF GLEBE HOUSES.

  QUESTION.
  VISCOUNT DUNGANNONinquired, Whether any measure to amend the Law relative to Dilapidation on Glebe Houses is likely to be laid on the table during the present Session? He considered that some measure of the kind was absolutely necessary, and if a good one it would have his cordial support.
  THE BISHOP OF LONDONsaid, that a Bill had been prepared, and would be laid on the table in two or three days. At the same time, having regard to the difficult and complicated nature of the subject, as well as to the advanced period of the Session, it was not probable that anything more would be done than that the Bill would be presented in order to give their Lordships the opportunity of considering it before next Session.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.