Lords Sitting of 25 February 1861

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILL.—1a Lunacy Regulation.
LUNACY REGULATION BILL.

  BILL PRESENTED. FIRST HEADING.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he rose to present to their Lordships a measure to provide for the better management of Lunatics under the care of the Court of Chancery, and the more inexpensive application of their property. In doing so he remarked that they formed a very numerous body, and that, though their condition had been much improved of late years, there was room for still further improvement. The first object of the Bill was to facilitate the application of the property of lunatics to their maintenance; and it provided that in cases when a person has been properly certified to be a lunatic, and whose property does not exceed £500, the Lord Chancellor shall be enabled to apply it for his benefit in a summary manner and without inquisition. Again, a lunatic had now the right of traversing the inquisition finding him a lunatic, and the result was that he was often made the tool of persons whose object was only to multiply costs. The Bill proposed that after the first inquisition it should be in the discretion of the Lord Chancellor to grant a second inquiry. Another object of the measure was to render more efficient the
  inspection of lunatics by the visitors. The noble and learned Lord then presented a Bill to further diminish the expense of Proceedings in Lunacy, and to provide more effectually for the visiting of Lunatics and for other Purposes.
  Bill read 1a

  SYRIA.—PAPERS MOVED FOR.
  VISCOUNT STRATFORD DE REDCLIFFEsaid, it was in the interest of both Houses of Parliament, and consequently in that of the nation at large, that he proposed to move for papers connected with the late transactions in Syria. In Her Majesty's gracious Speech at the opening of the Session, three very important subjects connected with our Foreign Affairs were mentioned—namely, those of Italy, of China, and of Syria. On the subject of Italy, a Correspondence showing the amount of interest taken by the Government in the Italian question, had been laid upon the table of the House. The Treaty of Peace with China had also been communicated in that and the other House of Parliament, in addition to the copious blue book which issued from the Foreign Department at the close of the last Session. The war with China having terminated in a manner so creditable to the Government and so satisfactory to the whole country, one could not be surprised that so little public curiosity should prevail with respect to any Correspondence on that subject not yet communicated to Parliament. Syria stood in a different category. No Correspondence had been presented this year to Parliament relative to the transactions in that country. The substance of the Convention was laid in the form of a protocol upon the table of their Lordships' House before the recess, and the public had never ceased to take a lively interest in the progress and results of the interference of the Allied Powers. Six months had elapsed, during which both Houses of Parliament had been kept in utter ignorance of what either the Turks or their Allies had been doing in Syria. Now, thanks to the public press, their Lordships were aware that a Conference was opened at Paris, and that its object was to determine whether the occupation of Syria by French troops should or should not be prolonged beyond the term of six months prescribed by the treaty. Nothing was further from his intention than to embarrass Her Majesty's Government, but if any objection were made to

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  the production of the Syrian Correspondence on the ground of the Conference, he should feel himself at liberty to inquire whether a distinction might not fairly be drawn between such papers as related to bygone occurrences and those which were immediately linked with the question now under discussion at Paris. But though a jealousy might naturally exist against raising a discussion on events with which that Conference was connected; still there were some documents, sufficiently detached from the special question with which that Conference would be occupied, that could be laid upon the table. Military operations of a decided character had been carried on by the Turks; and, indeed, it would seem that, under the guidance of their active and intelligent Commissioner, Fuad Pasha, tranquillity had been restored to Syria before the disembarcation of a single soldier from France. Judicial proceedings, involving the lives and fortunes of many of the natives, had also been carried on in the presence of agents appointed by the Allies, not without a serious responsibility on their part. Moreover, a Commissioner was sent out to Syria about six months ago by the noble Lord at the head of the Foreign Department, with little diplomatic experience and important duties to perform. Having the honour of a personal acquaintance with Lord Dufferin he had full reliance on his capacity for discharging those duties with effect, and the little he had heard of his proceedings confirmed him in that favourable impression; but he could not shut his eyes to the propriety of enabling Parliament to form a judgment of his qualifications and official conduct founded on a knowledge of the Correspondence. Then, again—what was of far greater moment—there was the conduct of the Sultan and of his Government during so many important transactions. Surely, on these grounds, and on others which might be added, were he not fearful of wearying their Lordships' patience, Parliament was entitled to ample and early information on subjects of such important and extensive interest. Surely, it was highly desirable that both Houses of Parliament should be allowed an opportunity of declaring their opinions on matters so deeply important without any unnecessary delay. The condition and destiny of Syria could never be indifferent to England. Such an opinion might be justly entertained of other countries and of other transactions, but it applied em-
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  phatically to Syria. That country was held by competent judges to be the key to Egypt. That alone was a consideration of which the importance could hardly be exaggerated. Particulars would be superfluous; the mere name of Egypt was sufficiently suggestive. Our trade with Syria, as no inconsiderable branch of our extensive and growing trade with the Levant in general, had also no small claim upon our attention. Be it also remembered that our neighbours had claims which, if not strong in right, had, by traditions of long standing, a powerful hold upon their sentiments, and such ties were, as their Lordships well knew, but too likely to degenerate into movements of ambition fraught with danger to the peace of States and to the balance of power. Last, but not least, in the titles of Syria to our sympathy, was the recollection of its history and the numerous events connected with our religion and our literature, of which, from one period to another, it had been so frequently and remarkably the witness and the theatre. For one, he should be glad to hear that the present occupation of Syria was to cease with the terms assigned to it by the treaty. Not that he would willingly entertain, without clear and irresistable reasons, any mistrust of the Power whose troops were acting on behalf of the Alliance. He should be very slow to believe that any Sovereign would risk his honour and position for the gratification of a shortsighted ambition, in defiance of express engagements contracted with the chief Powers of Europe. But it was due to the independence of the Sultan, and, in some respects, to the feeling of the country itself, that a foreign occupation of Syria should not be extended beyond the limits of a strict necessity. At the same time their Lordships would perhaps agree with him that in withdrawing the protection of an allied force from that country other and less doubtful securities ought, if possible, to be obtained for the maintenance of peace and the prevention of fresh disorders. The inhabitants of Mount Lebanon were entitled to an independent administration combined with the payment of a fixed annual tribute. With the exception of the Egyptian occupation under Mehemet Ali their mountains had always resisted the Turkish power with success; but their blood feuds and religious animosities exposed them to the danger of frequent collisions, and to the effects, more or less of that mutual ferocity which had shocked

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  and disgusted Europe last year. Unfortunately the rival populations were in some districts so intermingled, that the administration of justice was continually impeded, and provocations to quarrel and murder, on a larger or a smaller scale, were unhappily most frequent. Under these circumstances the problem to be solved was not an easy one, and it might be doubted whether even a forced separation of the adverse races would sufficiently meet the case. It had been thought of heretofore, and the magnitude of the evil, as developed in the late massacres, might possibly justify an extreme measure, especially if it were true that the great high road from Beyrout to Damascus separated the Christian population from that of the Druses and other tribes circumstanced as they were. Disarmament had been already tried, but with no permanent result; though it would seem desirable, on the whole, under present circumstances, to repeat the measure. But his impression, which had no merit but that of being founded on considerable experience, was, that if Her Majesty's Government would seek to apply a comprehensive and lasting remedy, they should not consider the disease as wholly local, but as part and parcel of those infirmities of the Turkish empire, which had sapped its strength for centuries, and which were a frequent source of anxiety and danger to Europe, and more particularly to England, from its intimate connection with the welfare, the independence, and the commerce of Turkey. By the last Treaty of Peace we entered for the first time into a positive guarantee of the integrity and independence of the Turkish empire. It was evident that if England were at any time called upon to redeem her pledge in that respect she would have to repeat the risks and sacrifices of the Crimean War, and in these times of rapid change and of new international principles the danger which a few years back might have been deemed eventual, and even speculative, now hung over our heads, and threatened to rush in upon us at any moment without preface or admonition. He regretted the more what would seem to be in some degree a coldness and indifference to this danger on the part of Europe, and even of this country, because the prestige of the Sultan's authority was still full of vitality, because that Sovereign's general dispositions were favourable to reform, and because he had of late made a considerable sacrifice of his private interests to those of the empire; at the same time that the
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  empire itself, while wearing out its remains of strength in consequence of its defective administration and other causes of weakness, with an army inadequate to the wants of so vast a territory, and a want of credit and sound system in financial matters, was still found equal to the repression of local disorders, and capable of improving its revenue to a considerable amount, notwithstanding its difficulties and the vices of its administration. That the Turkish Government required some friendly pressure from without in order to enable it to meet the just expectations of Europe could hardly be denied. But, in fact, that pressure bad been long occasionally applied with the consent of the Sultan, who justly distinguished between the interested intervention of any single Power and the counsels, however urgent, of Europe, represented by the principal Powers acting in concert for the welfare of Turkey. Those Powers who joined in the guarantee established by the Treaty of 1856 had surely a right to call upon the Porte to give effect without further delay to those reforms which had been proclaimed by the Sultan, recorded by the treaty, and adopted by the best of the Turkish statesmen, and by none more than the present energetic and uncorrupted Grand Vizier. He could not sit down without expressing a hope that their Lordships would join with him in regarding these circumstances as so many facilities for urging with effect upon the Sultan and his Ministers a more prompt and efficient execution of the measures proclaimed in that great charter which was better known in the East by the name of the Hatti Humayoun, as the only means of warding off those perils which the continued decay and demoralization of the Turkish empire could not fail to bring nearer to us with every succeeding year. The recent occurrences in Syria traceable, as they were, for the most part, to those more extensive sources of evil of which he had given a hasty outline, afforded, in his opinion, an opportunity, and imposed an obligation, which, he trusted, would have due weight with Her Majesty's Government. Taken in their real connection with each other, they might justly be alleged to justify the length at which he had trespassed on their Lordships' indulgence, and to substantiate his claim to the papers for which he was prepared to move. The noble Lord then moved That there be laid before this House Correspondence respecting certain Events in Syria.
  LORD WODEHOUSEsaid, he did not think Her Majesty's Government had been slow to give information on Foreign Affairs to Parliament; his noble Friend at the head of the Foreign Department had al ways furnished information as soon as he found it consistent with his duty to do so; but in the present state of affairs in Syria his noble Friend thought it would not be advisable to produce the papers for which the noble Viscount had moved. A Conference of the representatives of the great Powers and of the Porte was at this moment sitting at Paris, considering affairs connected with Syria, and to give to the House the Correspondence which had taken place up to the present moment upon the question would obviously lead to great embarrassment. It was impossible to separate different parts of the transactions, and it would not be of much service to produce merely a portion of the Correspondence; and, therefore, whilst he fully admitted the great importance of Parliament receiving ample information on this subject, he regretted to say on the part of the Government that he could not consent to the Motion. But he assured their Lordships that there should be no delay in furnishing them with the amplest information when the papers might be produced without detriment to the question. He did not think it necessary at present to enter into a discussion of the general state of Turkey; but as a considerable time had elapsed since anything had been said in their Lordships' House on the subject of Syria, he might mention one or two facts which might be interesting to their Lordships respecting that country. The facts were simply these, that the course taken by the Turkish Government, and by the Governments of the great Powers, acting through the French Government, for the purpose of restoring order in Syria, had not been without effect. It was only due to the Turkish Government to say that they had shown great energy in punishing those who were guilty of the horrible massacres that had taken place at Damascus. Out of 720 persons accused of these massacres 56 had been actually executed, including the commander of the Turkish troops in Damascus, and three other Turkish officers of high rank who had been shot. This proved that the Turkish Government were certainly not slow in inflicting upon those who were guilty of these horrible massacres the punishment which they deserved. After
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  punishment had been inflicted at Damascus, measures were taken to capture the Druse chiefs who were principally guilty of the outrages that had taken place. A considerable number of these chiefs unfortunately escaped owing to mismanagement; but some of the most important surrendered themselves, and they had been put on their trial at Beyrout and condemned to death. Those sentences had not been executed, because the matter was still under discussion. The Lebanon had been occupied by Turkish troops, and a portion of the country had also been occupied by French troops. He could not help mentioning with regret that during that occupation the Christians took advantage of the presence of those troops to inflict wanton cruelties upon the Druses. Many men, women, and children belonging to the Druses had been murdered by the Christians. To show further the vindictive spirit of the Maronites against the Druses, he might mention that the Turkish Government having requested the Maronite bishops to deliver to them a list of the Druses who were guilty of the massacres, those bishops gave them a list of no less than 4,500 male Druses whose execution they demanded; the whole number of the male Druses in that part of the country not being more than 11,000. The matter was referred again to those bishops, who were requested to moderate their demand. They delivered a second list of those who they thought should not suffer a less punishment than death. That second list contained the names of no less than 1,200 persons. And when the Turkish Commissioners required witnesses to come forward to prove the charge against the persons accused they were told by the Maronite bishops that no witnesses were necessary. He mentioned these facts to show the bitterness of the feuds that existed between these tribes. Under these circumstances their Lordships would perceive that the work of restoring order in Syria had been no easy one. He trusted that as the Conference at Paris had not yet come to any decision, and it would, therefore, be inconvenient to produce the papers at present, the noble Lord would not press his Motion.
  VISCOUNT STRATFORD DE REDCLIFFEsaid, that what had just fallen from his noble Friend appeared rather to supply him with a reason for persevering in his Motion, inasmuch as his noble Friend felt himself at liberty to make a recital—limited, indeed, but still a recital—

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  of the transactions to which he had referred while introducing the Motion proposed by him to the House. He was ready to receive most respectfully the statement of his noble Friend; still, he could not admit it to be entitled to as much weight as documents selected from the official correspondence, and presented to Parliament on the responsibility of Her Majesty's Government. He was, nevertheless, in the hands of the House, and if it was the wish of their Lordships that the Motion should be withdrawn he was ready to acquiesce in that wish on a distinct understanding that the required information should not he withheld longer than was absolutely necessary.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, before the Motion was withdrawn he desired to say a few words. Seeing how anxious their Lordships naturally must be to have correct information on this subject, he trusted no opportunity of furnishing it would be lost. As they stood at present, the only information given them in reference to the matter presented two different views; the one being the British, the other the French view. Her most Gracious Majesty, in the Speech delivered from the Throne at the commencement of the Session, told them She had reason to hope that tranquillity would soon be restored in that part of the world; but the French Government with less reticence, had published in the newspapers a despatch which he supposed was correctly given, in which M. Thouvenel expressed a very different opinion, and gave for it very long reasons which he would not trouble their Lordships by reading at this moment. As regarded the political part of the question this was all the information they had, and of course they should like to be informed cm what ground the view taken by Her Majesty's Government differed from that of the French authorities. He certainly should have thought that they might have had some narrative of events, which would not have interfered with the proceedings now going on; but the noble Lord (Lord Wodehouse) having told them this could not be done, he hoped that at the termination of the labours of the Conference they would know to what this country had been committed and what had been done; because it appeared to him that the Government of this country was as much compromised as that of France in respect of the occupation of Syria. However, he hoped their Lordships would soon be in
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  possession of the fullest information on the subject, and would, therefore, say no more at present.
  Motion, by leave of the House, withdrawn.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.