Lords Sitting of 5 August 1861

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2a Local Government Supplemental (No. 2.)
3a Metropolis Gas Act Amendment; Lace Factories; Gunpowder, &c. Act Amendment; Episcopal and Capitular Estates Act Continuance, &c.; Consolidated Fund (Appropriation); East India Loan (No. 2); Militia Pay; Militia Ballots Suspension; Wills and Domicile of British Subjects Abroad, &c.; Corrupt Practices Prevention Act (1854) Continuance; Landed Estates (Ireland) Act (1854) Amendment; Metropolitan Police District Receiver; Parochial Offices; Volunteers Tolls Exemption (No. 2.); Treasury Chest Fund.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT SUPPLEMENTAL (No. 2) BILL.

  RESOLUTION DISPENSED WITH. STANDING ORDERS SUSPENDED. THIRD READING.
  Moved, That the Resolution of the 11th of April last relating to Bills for confirming Provisional Orders of the Board of Health be dispensed with; agreed to.
  Bill read 2a (according to Order).
  Committee negatived.
  Then Standing Orders Nos. 37 and 38 considered (according to Order), and dispensed with.
  Bill read 3a, and passed.

  COURTS OF QUARTER SESSIONS (IRELAND).
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEmoved for
  "Return of the Number of Civil Bills and of Ejectments, and the Defences to them, Entered and Tried at the different Courts of Quarter Sessions of Ireland respectively, commencing with the Easter Sessions of 1856 to the Hilary Sessions of 1861, both inclusive; showing also the Number of Appeals to Courts of Assizes from the Decisions of the Chairman of Quarter Sessions, and the Number of such Decisions Reversed or Confirmed at each Assizes: Also,
  "Return of the Number of Felonies and Misdemeanours Tried at each Quarter Sessions, and of Convictions or Acquittals, within the same period: And also,
  "Return of the Number of Appeals from the Decisions of Magistrates, and of the Insolvent Cases Heard at each Quarter Sessions; and to call attention to the Report of the Office of Registry of Deeds,"
  The noble Marquess said, that the information which these Returns, if produced, would afford, was necessary to enable Parliament to legislate hereafter with effect on the subject of these Courts. A greater amount of business was now transacted, and transacted in a satisfactory manner, in the Quarter Sessions Courts of Ireland than the public was aware of. It was desirable, however, to improve the character and add to the efficiency of those tribunals; but he did not expect that such a change could be attended with greater economy to the suitor or to the public. There was another matter so urgent that he must earnestly press it upon the immediate attention of the Government. Not a day ought to be lost in dealing with the Registration Office in the city of Dublin. The state of things existing in that office, as disclosed in an official Report presented last April, was quite appalling. Nothing could exceed the utter confusion which prevailed in that important department of the judicial administration of the country. In the Office there were 800 volumes which were totally useless, and other ten volumes had been lost. These evils could not have arisen from the want of due assistance, because in the indexing branch of that Office alone there was a larger staff employed than the whole staff of the Registration Office of the county of Middlesex, where, moreover the number of deeds were half as many again as the deeds in the Registration Office in Dublin for all Ireland. This Office ought, in his opinion, to be placed under the superintendence of the Irish Landed Estates Court, or of some

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  one of the other great Courts in Dublin; and he trusted that the Government would turn its earliest and most careful attention to this subject, with a view to legislation upon it at the beginning of next Session.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, there was no objection whatever to the production of these Returns. In the absence of all his colleagues immediately connected with Ireland, he could only assure the noble Marquess that his observations respecting the state of the Registry Office in Dublin were deserving of the best consideration of the Government. The existence of the Landed Estates Court in Ireland rendered it all the more necessary and important that the office for the registration of deeds should be in a satisfactory condition.
  Motion agreed to.
  Afterwards—
  LORD STANLEY of ALDERLEYsaid, that since be had answered the question of the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Clanricarde), he had received an intimation that it was the intention of the Government to issue such an inquiry as the noble Marquess had advocated, with the object of discovering whether any improvement could be effected in the department.

EMPLOYMENT OF CHILDREN IN TRADES.

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYmoved, "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying Her Majesty to give Directions that an Inquiry be made into the Employment of Children and Young Persons in Trades and Manufactures not already recognized by law," and said, my Lords, the Motion which I have now to submit to your Lordships, although it is the last, is, I am sure, not the least which to-day claims your attention; and I have no doubt your Lordships will admit that its magnitude and importance justify me in now bringing it before you. It is not necessary for me to detain your Lordships by any lengthened statement. I will, however, explain that in the year 1840 I moved for the appointment of a Commission, and obtained it, for the purpose of instituting an inquiry precisely similar to the one which I am now proposing. That Commission reported in 1842, and a very copious and very valuable body of evidence was collected. I have been often asked why I did not proceed fur-
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  ther in legislation on this subject. What I did was this—I was enabled to introduce a Bill for the regulation of the labour of young children in coal mines; measures of an analogous nature were also brought in and passed in respect to printworks and bleachworks; and this year we had a Bill before us extending the provisions of the Factory Acts to lace factories. The difficulty of legislating on this question is very great, because, every special branch of industry having its own pecularities and special requirements, separate legislation is necessary in each particular case. The introduction of measures of this kind always encounters considerable opposition; and, therefore, it was requisite to wait and watch for the growth of public opinion. Now, public opinion, seeing the good effects which have arisen from past legislation of this character, has come to recognize the advantage in every sense, moral, social, commercial, and political, of proceeding still further in the same direction. It is, likewise, desirable to have a new inquiry, because a long period has elapsed since the Report of 1842 was presented. Since then the evils there pointed out have in some instances been mitigated, in others aggravated and increased; while, moreover, some old trades have become extinct, and, on the other hand, some new trades have been created. Yet the abuses still perpetrated are so great, the mischief attending the existing system so glaring, that the evidence taken before the last Commission affords but a very imperfect indication of what another investigation instituted now might be expected to disclose. My Lords, the trades and employments now subjected to inspection, but as yet not regulated by law, are these:—Tin, copper, lead and zinc mines, metal wares, earthenware, glass, pillow-lace, hosiery, paper-making, paper-staining (new), draw-boy weaving, hand-frame winding and warping, tobacco manufactures, lucifer matches, shirt-making, embroidering, rope and twine making, fustian dressing and cutting, leather-glove making, card-setting, brick-making, black-lead works, and several others. I will now briefly call to your Lordships' attention the general conclusions arrived at by the Commissioners of 1840; and, on the first point—namely, as to age, they state that—
  "Instances occur in which children begin to work as early as three or four years of age, not unfrequently at five, and between five and six; while, in general, regular employment commences

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  between seven and eight; that in all cases the persons that employ mere infants and the very youngest children are the parents themselves. Early ages are found principally in the manufacture of pins, earthenware, machine-lace, hosiery, draw-boy weaving," &c.
  As to the hours of work the Commissioners remark—
  "The instances are rare in which the regular hours of work are less than twelve, including from one hour to one hour and a half for meals; but the nominal hours of work are often no indication of the duration of the labour, the work being not unfrequently continued from thirteen up to eighteen hours consecutively,"
  With reference to the state of the places in which the work is carried on, they say—
  "With some exceptions, the places of work in which the trades are carried on are, in general, lamentably defective in drainage, ventilation, the due regulation of temperature, and cleanliness.".They proceed to describe "the disgusting state of filth."
  Again, as to the night-work—
  "In many trades and manufactures there is no regular night-work; but in others it is so constant as to be a part of the system. Its physical and moral effects on the workpeople, and on the children in particular, are universally stated to be highly injurious"
  As to the treatment there are these remarks—
  "In every trade there are some establishments where corporal punishment is neither allowed nor practised. In too many cases, however, the child is the servant of the workman. … the proprietor knowing nothing of the treatment, and never, in the least, concerning himself with the matter. In this position the child is often severely, and sometimes cruelly, used; and in one branch of manufacture, in one district in particular, the treatment is oppressive and brutal to the last degree."
  From the evidence produced before the several Commissioners, the following inferences are drawn with respect to the influences of the work on the physical condition of the employed:—
  "With few exceptions there is nothing in the nature of the employments included under the present inquiry directly injurious to health; but they are often pursued under circumstances which are so."
  They specify "early labour," "long hours of work," "insufficient and unwholesome food," and "bad clothing." Hence, "they are more disposed than others to certain diseases which shorten life," to say nothing of crippled forms, distorted limbs, with all their disabilities and protracted sufferings. I hold it to be very consolatory that, with a few exceptions, there is nothing in the
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  nature of the employment directly injurious to the health of those children. They must live by their labour, and, therefore, it is a great consolation to know that there is nothing injurious in that labour itself. On the subject of the moral effects of this system the testimony is everywhere fearful. Of one town a Commissioner reports—"Hundreds of men are supported by the earnings of their wives and children;" and there are several cases in which parents spend in intoxication the entire earnings of their children. Of another town a Commissioner reports—
  "A lower condition of morals could not, I think, be found. Moral feelings and sentiments do not exist among them. They have no morals."
  It is stated that education in such homes as the Commissioners describe is either impossible or useless; and of one town the Commissioner, speaking of young persons, observes—
  "Their horrid words, their ferocious gestures, their hideous laughter, their brutal, bloated, mindless faces, appal and amaze a stranger."
  If your Lordships read through the evidence, you will find in it a picture of a state of things such as you could scarcely suppose to exist in this country; and from their very nature those evils have a tendency to become worse. In fact, they must become worse, day by day, if some remedy be not applied. The state of those young people is especially deplorable in the case of females. No one of these wretched girls can ever rise to the dignity of a wife and mother. That is the opinion of the Commissioners; who, referring to that class, observe that they are "wholly incapable of performing the duties of wives and mothers." I shall conclude, my Lords, with the summing up of Mr. Senior, who, after an attentive consideration of the reports of the several Commissioners, makes these remarks—
  "We look with shame and indignation at the pictures of American slavery, but 1 firmly believe that the children at the worst managed plantations are less over-worked, less tortured, better fed, and quite as well instructed as the unhappy infants whose early and long-continued labour occasions the fabulous cheapness of our hardware and lace, and whose wages feed the intemperance of their parents."
  Mr. Senior is a very sensible man and one of experience, but he is one of the last men who could ever be supposed to entertain any romantic feeling in this matter, and I think I shall not be charged with exaggeration if, following up what he says, I

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  express my hope that your Lordships will see the necessity of an inquiry with a view of applying a remedy to a state of things so utterly disgraceful, and which, if allowed to proceed, must result in being so utterly destructive. I feel satisfied that the measures which have been already passed with a view of ameliorating the condition of the operative classes in this country have been attended with very beneficial results; that they have tended to reconcile the working classes to their position in life. They are no longer disaffected towards the other orders of society; they are no longer disaffected to property. Finding that persons of station and wealth in both Houses of Parliament are ready to look to their grievances and apply the necessary remedies, they are content to leave the application of those remedies in the hands of the Legislature. I, therefore, think that your Lordships and the other House of Parliament have now in your hands, by God's blessing, all the elements for making the working classes contented, thriving, and happy; and with the view of enabling your Lordships to avail yourselves of the occasion I beg to move an Address for an inquiry into the employment of Children and Young Persons in trades and manufactures not already regulated by law.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, that there could be no objection on the part of the Government to such an inquiry as that which the noble Earl had indicated. In saying that, he might observe that he himself had been as much opposed to the noble Earl's measures when they were first commenced as, perhaps, any Member of the House of Commons; but he was bound to admit that his apprehensions as to evil consequences arising from those measures had not been fulfilled. On the contrary, they had given general satisfaction. They had benefited the manufacturers as well as the working classes; and he concurred with the noble Earl in thinking that they had engendered in the minds of the latter a good feeling towards the other classes of society. As regarded young people, there must always be a distinction drawn between those who were employed in large mills and other manufactories and those who were employed merely in a domestic way in the houses of their parents. With the latter it was almost impossible to interfere. There was no doubt that the good work which the noble Earl had commenced might be ex-
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  tended to other trades than those which it at present reached, though it would be difficult to say, without further inquiry, what those trades were. On the part of Her Majesty's Government he could promise that inquiry would be made with the object of ascertaining whether any improvements could he effected of the character which the noble Earl desired to see accomplished.
  LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, that while he recognized the kindliness of heart which induced the noble Earl to call the attention of the House to this subject, and while he bore testimony to the good results which had followed from the course legislation had hitherto adopted, he must still take the liberty of warning their Lordships against the error of supposing that legislation must be beneficial to whatever extent it was pushed. It was, on the contrary, one of the subjects to which the doctrine of limit peculiarly applied; and much of the success which had hitherto attended the interference of Parliament was owing to the wisdom which had been shown in the measures that were passed. He feared that these restrictions could not he safely applied to many of those trades which the noble Earl had named, but he must, nevertheless, congratulate the noble Earl on having at this extreme period of the Session obtained a result in such perfect harmony with the cause to which he devoted so great a portion of his energies.
  Motion agreed to.

CASE OF JOSEPH JOWETT.

  PETITION FOR DISCHARGE.
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, he had a petition of a rather singular nature to present to their Lordships. The petition was from a person named Joseph Jowett, the Appellant in two appeal cases to their Lordships' House. The appeals were both dismissed, and he was ordered to pay costs; but having disobeyed that order, he was committed to the custody of the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod. The petitioner declared his willingness to pay, but being utterly unable to do so he prayed that he might be released from custody. The noble Lord concluded by moving that the petition be referred to the Appeal Committee.
  Petition read, and referred to Appeal Committee.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Three o'clock, till To-morrow. One o'clock.