Lords Sitting of 1 August 1861

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Gardens in Towns Protection; Consolidated Fund (Appropriation); East India Loan (No. 2); Militia Pay; Militia Ballots Suspension; Wills and Domicile of British subjects Abroad, &c.; Corrupt Practices Prevention Act (1854) Continuance; Landed Estates (Ireland) Act (1858) Amendment; Metropolitan Police District Receiver; Parochial Offices; Local Government Supplemental (No. 2); Volunteers Tolls Exemption (No.2.); Treasury Chest Fund.
2a Metropolis Gas Act Amendment; Lace Factories; Gunpowder, &c. Act Amendment; Episcopal and Capitular Estates Act Continuance, &c.
3a Industrial Schools (Scotland); Industrial Schools; Enlistment in India; Indemnity.
Royal Assent—Piers and Harbours; Turnpike Trusts Arrangements; Harbours; Passengers (Australian Colonies); Metropolitan Police Force Pensions; Railway Companies Mortgage Transfer (Scotland); Drunkenness (Ireland);
Landlord and Tenant Law Amendment (Ireland) Act Proceedings; Vaccination; Voters (Ireland); University Elections; Dublin Revising Barristers; Lunatic Asylums (Ireland) Act Continuance; County Cess (Ireland) Act Continuance; Local Government Act Amendment; Locomotives; Tramways (Scotland); East India (Civil Service); Irremoveable Poor; Crown Suits Limitation; East India Council, &c.; County Surveyors, &c. (Ireland); Public Works (Ireland) (Advances and Repayments of Monies); Attornies and Solicitors (Ireland); White Herring Fishery (Scotland); Turnpike Acts Continuance; Ordnance Survey Continuance; Criminal Proceedings Oath Relief.

BANKRUPTCY AND INSOLVENCY BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments made by the Lords (to which the Commons had disagreed, and on which the Lords have insisted) not insisted upon, and with consequential Amendments to the original Bill:
The said Amendments to be considered To-morrow.

GARDENS IN TOWNS PROTECTION BILL.

  BILL PRESENTED. FIRST READING
  Lord REDESDALEsaid, that some time ago he had called their Lordships' attention to the present state of Leicester Square Garden. Since then he had learned that "the Great Globe" was about to be removed, and there was a disposition to restore the Square to its former condition; but it appeared there were grave doubts as to what the law was on this subject, or what were the rights of the proprietors. There were powers in the Metropolis Local Management Act to preserve all open spaces; but there was some doubt whether these powers extended to the restoration of this Square to its former condition, though it had been a garden for more than a century. In order that it might not be supposed that he had lost sight of the subject, he begged now to lay on their Lordships' table a Bill for the Protection of certain Garden or Ornamental Grounds in Cities and Boroughs.
  Bill, —That Gardens in Squares, &c, of Fifty Years standing may be freed from Neglect, Encroachments, &o. and vested in a Committee of Rated Inhabitants, or if such decline, in the Metropolitan Board of "Works or Corporate Authority, —presented, and read la.

LACE FACTORIES BILL

  SECOND READING.
  THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLEsaid, that he rose to move the second reading of this
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  Bill, not only as a member of the Government, but as being closely connected with the district to which the Bill principally applied. He was the more anxious to do this because he wanted to explain the effect of certain alterations that had been made in the Bill during its progress through the other House, and by which its clauses, as agreed to between the masters and workmen, had been changed. Indeed, it had been said in the other House that the master manufacturers were opposed to this Bill, and had done all in their power to prevent its passing. He could assure the House that this allegation was wholly unfounded; and in support of that he could appeal to his noble Friend opposite (the Earl of Shaftesbury) whether, when he called attention to the subject some fifteen or sixteen months ago, he (the Duke of Newcastle) did not rise in his place and state that the master manufacturers were quite willing that there should be legislation on the subject, and were also agreed on the main provisions of the Bill. It was, moreover, said that the Bill was not in conformity with the suggestions of Mr. Tremenheere, and it was added, though somewhat inconsistently with the other report, that Mr. Tremenheere allowed himself to be unduly influenced by the master manufacturers. These charges were also wholly unfounded. Mr. Tremenheere cordially approved of the present Bill, and he might again appeal to his noble Friend opposite whether Mr. Tremenheere, whose valuable services for the last twenty years were acknowledged by all parties, was capable of being unduly influenced by either one side or the other. The alterations of importance made in the Bill in its passage through the other House were two:—The first was the alteration of the age at which young persons might begin to work from eleven to thirteen. The other alteration referred to the meal hours. The plan of the masters was that the workpeople should take their meals at separate half-hours, so that the mills should not be stopped; but this was altered in the Commons to one and the same time of meals for all the workpeople, the effect of which would be that the mills would be entirely stopped. With regard to the first of these alterations it was thought that it would act prejudicially, inasmuch as the masters might refuse to employ young persons at all, and a joint committee of masters and workmen had agreed to split the difference, and fix the age at twelve. It was hoped the committee of

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  workmen would have agreed to a plan for dividing the workpeople into two parties, and to make their half hours of meal time to dovetail into each other, so that one should come into work as the other left; but for some reason or another the workmen were unwilling to adopt this compromise, and they were placed in this position, that they must either attempt to carry this Bill against the wishes of the workmen, or drop the Bill entirely. He was now moving the second reading on a Thursday, and the prorogation would take place on Tuesday next; so that they had only two days to sit and and transact business, and any difference of opinion between the two Houses would therefore ensure the loss of the Bill. The masters had a fair ground for requesting that the Bill might be dropped, inasmuch as they believed that the clause would work injuriously both for masters and men; but within the last hour he had received a communication from a deputation who represented the masters, in which they stated that as the dropping of the Bill would be a great disappointment to the working classes, especially to the women and children, they would rather encounter all the evils they anticipated from the operation of this clause than allow it to be dropped. He trusted that, should future Amendments be required in this matter, their Lordships would bear in mind the period of the Session in which this Bill had been passed and the conduct of the masters in assenting to what they thought might prove inexpedient, and would not refuse to give a fair consideration to any representations that might be made. The noble Duke then moved that the Bill be now read the second time.
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYstated, that he had been received with the greatest courtesy in Nottingham; was shown over the mills with the utmost freedom, and encountered no impediment in procuring any information which he wished to obtain. He honestly believed that the manufacturers were anxious to promote the welfare of those dependent upon them. He trusted they would be met in a corresponding spirit, and should any difficulties arise the Houses of Parliament would not object, he felt assured, to make any alterations which were felt to be necessary.
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

ACCESSORIES AND ABETTORS BILL.
  THE CRIMINAL LAW BILLS.

    COMMITTEE.
    Accessories and Abettors Bill; Criminal Statutes Repeal Bill; Larceny, &c. Bill; Malicious Injuries to Property Bill; Forgery Bill; Coinage Offences Bill; Offences against the Person Bill.
    House in Committee (according to Order).
    Bills reported, without Amendments; and to be read 3a To-morrow

PUBLIC OFFICES SITE BILL.

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, that although he knew the House of Commons had a great objection to vote money for the prospective purpose of acquiring land, still he thought it was very desirable that the Government should, early next Session, take power to acquire the land upon the other side of Charles Street, and also in that part of King Street which would be required for the new offices, for Charles Street was about being widened, and if this took place there would be new buildings erected, which would cost the public to purchase five times as much as the houses which were now there.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, there was great force in the observations of the noble Lord, and the Government would certainly take the matter into consideration.
  Bill reported, without Amendment.

WINDSOR SUSPENDED CANONRIES BILL.—COMMITTEE.
House in Committee (according to Order).
Clause 2, (Appropriation of Profits of Eighth Canonry to Churches),
THE EARL OF CHICHESTERsaid, the Bill would accomplish two very desirable objects—it would increase the inadequate stipends of the Military Knights of Windsor, and augment two livings in the town of Windsor. With regard to the first object, the claim of the Knights was resisted by the Dean and Chapter, and the decision of the Master of the Rolls in favour of the Dean and Chapter was, on appeal, confirmed by their Lordships. Several thousand pounds had been expended by the Dean and Chapter in costs, and he

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thought some provision ought to be inserted in the Bill by which they might be reimbursed that outlay. With regard to the second object — although no one could be more glad than he was to have two poor livings increased — yet, as a trustee of the Common Fund for the augmentation of poor livings generally, he was bound to object to the recognition of a different principle by this Bill. It was contrary to the spirit of past legislation, and was opposed by all the Members of the Ecclesiastical Commission who had seats in the House I of Commons.
LORD KINGSDOWNsaid, that although on the question of law the Dean and Chapter of Windsor were right, there never was a case of greater hardship than that of the Military Knights of Windsor.
THE EARL OF ST. GERMANSthought that the claims of the parishes from which the tithes were derived ought to be first considered.
THE BISHOP OF LONDONsaid, the Bill introduced no new principle. It might be a somewhat novel application of Church property, but it would be establishing a precedent which he should not be sorry to see followed in other cases, for he regretted that at the passing of the Cathedral Reform Act the interests of the inferior members of the cathedral establishments had been somewhat neglected.
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that the Master of the Rolls and their Lord-ships' House had decided that no costs should be allowed, and to provide for the repayment of their costs to the Dean and Chapter would be in fact to override the judgment of two competent tribunals by force of an Act of Parliament.
THE EARL OF HARROWBYmoved the omission of the Clause.
On Question, their Lordships divided:— Contents 25; Not-contents 10: Majority 15.
Clause agreed to; Bill reported without Amendments.
Amendments made; and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.

NEWSPAPERS, &e., BILL.
Lord REDESDALEsaid, a noble Lord opposite (Lord Stratheden) had given notice for to-morrow of the second reading of this Bill. It was one upon which the House had already expressed an opinion and which bad been rejected by their Lordships, and it was out of the question
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that they should be called upon to discuss it again at this late period of the Session. Lord STRATHEDEN was not aware that the forms of that House permitted a discussion on a Bill the day before that on which it stood for a second reading, and did not join issue now with the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees on points where he entirely differed from the noble Lord in the assertions he bad hazarded. As regards his intentions on the Bill, having given notice for to-morrow, he should state them at that time.
House adjourned at Seven o'clock, till to-morow, Eleven o'clock.