THIRD READING. (Hansard, 29 April 1861)

§ LORD REDESDALE
asked what would be the probable expense of working out this measure?

§ LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY
said, that there would be no objection to lay on the table an account of the probable expenses of the new system; £3,000 a year was computed as the cost of working the system on the experimental scale proposed at present. If the system should be extended the expenses would, of course, be greater.

§ THE EARL OF HARDWICKE
inquired what was intended by the Government in reference to the salaries of the small postmasters, whose duties would be very onerous?

§ LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY
replied that exactly the same course would be pursued as had been adopted with respect to the money-order offices—namely, the postmasters would receive a percentage on each transaction.

§ LORD MONTEAGLE
said, he could not see without regret and alarm what seemed to him meant to produce a breaking up of the existing savings hanks, and the substitution of the action of a salaried Government department for what he might call a great public charity, directed by benevolent persons acting gratuitously in their own neighbourhood. The present system cost in its management between £120,000 and £130,000 a year; and the paid officers holding situations of trust found security to the amount of £740,000. The cost of the proposed scheme they had no means of estimating, but be doubted whether the whole of the persons in the employment of the Post Office who were to carry out this Bill could give security to an equal amount. Yet the Bill tended to supersede the trustees, managers, and paid actuaries of the existing savings banks. [Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY: It will not interfere with them.] He asked their Lordships to read this Bill, and say whether it had not been framed with the view of leading to a breaking up of the present savings banks, transferring their deposits to the Post- 1211 master-General? The Bill would, in fact, create within the Government a great centralized bank, and would place at the disposal of the finance Minister an enormous amount of money being the savings of the middle and humbler classes. He objected to the power which the Chancellor of the Exchequer possessed of using the funds of the savings banks for stock broking purposes. He was so impressed with the danger by which the measure would be attended that he should deem it his duty to put his objection on record by saying "Not content," to the Motion, though he would not put their Lordships to the trouble of a division.

§ LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY
said, that the Bill did not propose to deal with the existing savings banks; and if it should have the effect of subverting those institutions it could only be because the public would prefer the new banks to the old, as affording greater facilities for the deposit of their savings, and giving an increased security, that made up for their diminished rate of interest which they would receive. He could not, therefore, admit that that was any ground for complaint. With regard to the present banks, he knew that in many instances the greatest difficulty had been experienced in finding gentlemen who would accept the office of trustees of these establishments. Practically the administration of the existing banks depended almost entirely on the managers, the trustees being merely the names of certain gentlemen who were put before the public, but who neither did nor could give the requisite amount of attention to the matter. These gentlemen were not responsible by law for the deposit, but at the same time, when a failure did take place, feeling themselves to rest under a moral obligation, and unwilling to see their poorer neighbours incur any injury, they had sometimes voluntarily and handsomely come forward and contributed the money from their own resources. In the case of the Rochdale Savings Bank the amount of loss incurred was.£37,000, and from that moment to this it had been found impossible to re-establish a bank there, or to induce any one to come forward and act as trustee. But the substantial objection of his noble Friend was not to this Bill itself, but to the state of the law with reference to the deposits in savings banks. His noble Friend was of opinion that the money in the hands of the National Debt Commissioners enabled the Chancellor of the Exchequer to deal with the funds, and thus to exercise 1212 control over the money market. Well, at any rate, the present Government were as little liable to blame this ground as any of its predecessors; for last Session the Chancellor of the Exchequer introduced a Bill by which he proposed to tie his own hands up so far as £30,000,000 of deposits in savings banks was concerned. That Bill, however, so far as it related to the present question, was not approved of by the other House; but his right hon. Friend was quite willing to re-introduce it on the first opportunity; and in the present Bill there was a clause which directed the production of annual returns for the information of Parliament of all the transactions which took place with the savings banks monies, and which would operate as a great check upon his proceedings in the direction referred to. This Bill was calculated to effect an object which all must desire to see carried out. It did not interfere with the existing savings banks, whilst it afforded the poorer classes an opportunity of depositing their money more readily, and he believed more safely, than they could do now.

§ LORD REDESDALE
begged again to call attention to the clause relative to the transfer of money from existing savings banks to those connected with the Post Office. The Bill required these transfers to be made by a certificate signed by two trustees. This, he thought, would lead to very great inconvenience in many instances. He believed it would be far better to let the depositor withdraw his money himself and re invest it himself.

§ LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY
said, that under the plan proposed in this Bill, the transfer would be effected by the National Debt Commissioners, on receiving the certificate of the trustees, simply removing the sum from the account of the present savings bank and entering it to the credit of the Post Office Savings Bank, and the necessity for any selling-out would, therefore, be entirely obviated; in case of panic or anything of the kind this would be a very great advantage.