SECOND READING. (Hansard, 10 May 1860)

§ THE EARL OF DERBY

If, my Lords, we who sit on this side of the House offer no objection to the Motion which upon behalf of the Government the noble Earl has just made, and if we abstain from taking advantage of the opportunity which now presents itself to enter into a discussion of the Treaty with France, the tariff, and the general financial policy of the Government, it must not as a consequence be supposed that we acquiesce in, much less approve, the line of policy which in this respect Her Majesty's Ministers have pursued. At the time when we were first made aware of the proposals which by means of the Treaty were sought to be carried into effect we stated the objections to them which we entertained, and I need hardly say that those objections, instead of being removed, have been rendered still stronger in proportion as we have become better acquainted with the details of the instrument itself. The fact is, my Lords, that each day that passes renders firmer my conviction that the Government, in making use in the negotiation of this Treaty of inexperienced agents, in departing from the ordinary course of diplomatic arrangement and in entering into the consideration of an important subject with inadequate means and information, have brought the country into a position of very serious difficulty; have made a very disadvantageous Treaty, and have, so far as all the contingent advantages which it was supposed we were to derive from its operation are concerned, left us absolutely and entirely at the mercy of the French. Government—who, from the accounts which we now receive, are not, so far as I can see, very desirous to exercise any great degree of moderation in acting up to the powers in the matter which have been placed in their hands. While, however, these are the sentiments upon the question to which I feel it to be my duty to give expression, I concur with those who think that it is desirable the occasions should be as rare as possible on which your Lordships should feel it to be incumbent upon you to reject propositions connected with the finances and commerce of the country which have obtained the sanction of the House of Commons, and which come up to us stamped with the imprimatur and responsibility of Her Majesty's advisers. 1003 And if that he a course which it is expedient to refrain from adopting under ordinary circumstances, the reasons which operate against its being taken—when the question is not only one between your Lordships and the other House of Parliament, but one which involves the issue of our negotiations with a foreign Power and the adherence to a Treaty to which, however disadvantageous to us it may be, we are so far bound as to render it impossible for us to retrace our steps—acquire considerably increased force. I may add, that from a Bill of the nature of that which we are now considering, and which, as your Lordships are aware, comprises a great variety of articles, it would not be possible for us to eliminate any one of its provisions, and send the measure back so altered to the House of Commons, without an interference with the privileges of that branch of the Legislature. No alternative, therefore, remains to us, except that of cither assenting to or absolutely rejecting the Bill as it stands, the result of adopting the latter course being that we should disturb the whole of the financial arrangements of the Government, and not only that, but materially interfere with those commercial arrangements which have been entered into by the commercial world upon the full reliance that that scheme would receive the assent of Parliament. I am, under those circumstances, of opinion that we should be acting unwisely in rejecting the Bill, and I, for one, should certainly shrink from taking upon myself the responsibility of asking your Lordships to pursue that course, notwithstanding the fact that I regard the whole of the arrangements which have been made by the Government, including the Treaty, as being of a most improvident and dangerous character; and the financial position of the country, as a consequence, not only in the present year, but perhaps still more as regards the next, as being one which is calculated to create the deepest anxiety in the mind of every man who gives the slightest consideration to the progress of public affairs and to our financial and international policy. There are undoubtedly proposals embodied in this Bill which, if carried into effect, will tend to aggravate the difficulty, inasmuch as it provides for the remission of duties which upon a more fitting occasion it might be just and expedient to abolish, but with which we cannot at present afford to dispense. We are nevertheless, as it were, compelled to give our assent to those 1004 proposals, and thus far to diminish the already too attenuated revenue of the country. There is, however, another subject—I refer to the abolition of the paper duty—with which the terms of the Treaty do not in the slightest degree interfere, with respect to which no commercial arrangements have as yet been entered into, and in dealing with which Her Majesty's Government call upon us to make a wholly useless and dangerous sacrifice of nearly £1,500,000 of public revenue. My noble Friend on the cross benches (Lord Monteagle) has given notice of his intention to oppose the second reading of the Bill in which this proposal is embodied; and I, for my part—feeling that its rejection, so far from embarrassing Her Majesty's Government, interfering with their other arrangements, prejudicing the course of business, or proving injurious to the financial position of the country, would rather tend considerably to the advantage of each—will do everything in my power to accomplish that rejection, and so preserve a large sum of money to the Exchequer and a large portion of the revenue to the State. I cannot help adding that I think that the noble Earl, following the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his calculations, has confounded two matters. He treats the reduction made in the tariff as being a relief to the consumer to a certain amount, and assumes that the loss to the revenue will be made up by the increased consumption that will be occasioned. But when the noble Earl assumes the extent of the relief to the consumer he is not entitled to take as relief the whole amount of the duty he is taking off; because he will find that in several articles in which the duty has been taken off the consumer is obtaining no relief at all; but that the prices are still kept up, and in some instances have increased on the prices at which they stood when the duty was levied. I do not admit the proposition that the relief to the consumer is equivalent to the amount of the reduction of the duty. I shall not, my Lords, on this occasion cuter into any further discussion on the commercial and financial arrangements of the Government; but your Lordships will recollect that before Easter the noble Earl stated he thought it would be convenient that the financial arrangements of the Government should be brought under the consideration of their Lordships' House as a whole; and I cannot but think that the most fitting opportunity for taking the 1005 discussion will be on the occasion when my noble Friend proposes to us to deal with the measure which involves so large an amount of revenue as a million-and-a-half—I mean the Bill for the abolition of the paper duties.