MOTION FOR ORDER IN COUNCIL. (Hansard, 10 May 1860)

LORD LIFFORD
moved for Copy of the Order in Council naming the village of Letterkenny as the place where the proposed Lunatic Asylum for the County of Donegal was to be built, and of the deport of the Inspector on which that Order was founded. In doing so, he wished, he said, to call the attention of the House to the opinions upon the subject which were entertained by several gentlemen who had some knowledge of the locality in question. The Lord Lieutenant of the County had said that he saw with exceeding regret the course which the Government of Ireland proposed to adopt. The Marquess of Abercorn, the Ear] of Leitrim, the Earl of Erne, and Lord Donegal, who were large proprietors in that part of the country, were all opposed to the scheme. Out of the magistrates of the county twenty-four had signed a letter, which he held in his hand, objecting to the proposed site, and only three were in favour of the Letterkenny Asylum. One of the wants which had for years been most bitterly felt in Ireland was that of a strong public opinion. He was happy to say that evil was being gradually remedied; but meanwhile the Government officials were not subject to the same responsibility as in this country. The noble Lord on the woolsack would probably recognize the saying,—"It is a far cry to Loch-ow." The people of Ireland, therefore, looked on the Lord Lieutenant as their protector, and, feeling that by his high position and personal character he was removed both from the sympathies and necessities of his subordinates, they trusted that he 'would look into the details of the Government himself, and see that those beneath him did not attempt practices of which in England they would not dare to be guilty.

§ EARL GRANVILLE
said, he had no objection to the production of the papers, and when they were produced the House would be able to judge on what grounds 1006 this asylum was to be built on this spot. He regretted that his noble Friend the Lord Lieutenant was not present to afford the information desired by the noble Lord.

THE EARL OF LEITRIM
said, he was not in the least surprised at the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland not being hero, and, indeed, he thought he had acted very prudently in staying away. He for one could not join in the eulogiums which it was the fashion to pour forth upon the noble Earl—

§ EARL GRANVILLE,
interrupting, said, that the reason why the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland was not present simply was that he was not at the present time iii London. If the noble Earl wished to make an attack upon his noble Friend or the Irish Government he would suggest that he should put a formal notice on the paper, and then his noble Friend the Lord Lieutenant would be present to defend himself.

THE EARL OF LEITRIM
resumed. He certainly objected to the manner in which the Government of Ireland was conducted, the principle which animated it being that of electioneering. He objected to the humbug of the Government bringing into the House of Commons a Bill to reform that House whilst the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland was carrying corruption to its highest point. The Lord Lieutenant of Ireland could not arrange even such a matter as a lunatic asylum, or the appointment of a High Sheriff, without having some electioneering interest in view. There was no single excuse for him. He had heard it argued a thousand times that in having such a high officer as a Lord Lieutenant in Ireland they were protected from having outrageous jobs carried out. For himself he held a diametrically opposite opinion. He thought that the Lord Lieutenant was the greatest mischief-maker in the whole country. By the system which at present existed in Ireland the gentry of that country had been set aside, and the whole business placed in the hands of stipendiaries from the Lord Lieutenant downwards. Hence these jobs. The present instance was a gross job. Within the last live years there had been expended, and very properly, £306,114 on lunatic asylums in different parts of Ireland; and of this £41,450 had been laid out at Omagh, within two miles of the place where it was proposed to erect this new building, whilst in Deny the sum spent was £1,425. Three years ago 1007 the then Lord Chancellor of Ireland took great interest in matters of this kind and did infinite good; and he believed that fifteen years ago there was a rule that no lunatic asylum should be built except in assize towns. He should like to know on what principle this rule had been departed from? It was of the utmost importance that there should be proper investigation as to persons confined in lunatic asylums, for otherwise they might be made the means of imprisoning persons who were perfectly sane. Erecting lunatic asylums in out-of-the-way places would facilitate such an improper practice. There could be no object in laying out several thousand pounds in building an asylum in this part of Donegal, when they might if necessary make some addition to the asylum already existing. He did not find that there had been any extraordinary excess lately, but rather a diminution in the number of lunatics in that part of Ireland. In Londonderry and Donegal there were only 214 lunatics, only six in the prisons, and very few in the poorhouses. This asylum was not wanted, and there could be no earthly object in laying out this money. Gentlemen connected with Ireland had had no explanation in reference to this matter, and he thought that it was not satisfactory that a matter of this kind should be brought forward by the Irish Government entirely on their own responsibility, and without consulting a single one of the individuals who would have to pay towards the money which was to be expended. They ought to have some explanation from the Government. Why was not the Lord Lieutenant there, or why was not means taken for obtaining from him the information necessary to answer this question? He thought it was very desirable that there should be somebody in that House to represent the Irish Government. In the House of Commons there were the law officers for Ireland, and why, in their Lordships' House, should there not be an Irish law lord? In the absence of such an arrangement, why should not the Lord Lieutenant be there in person to answer for his own jobs? Why did he not come down and make some of those pretty speeches which he was in the habit of making in other places; and in which he was constantly talking of the prosperity of Ireland. The Lord Lieutenant had lately, at a public meeting, answered a speech which he (the Earl of Leitrim) had made in that House—a circumstance which he did not think was pro- 1008 per or respectful to their Lordships. What he had said as to the corrupt manner of carrying on the Irish Government was the opinion of every person in that country. How wore the lieutenancies of Londonderry and Roscommon given away lately, and for what purpose? The manner of carrying on the Irish Government brought it into thorough contempt; and, though it might be the intention of Her Majesty's Government to stand by the Lord Lieutenant, the feeling in Ireland was that they had sent the Earl of Carlisle to Ireland in order to disgust the Irish with the system of having a Lord Lieutenancy.

THE EARL OF EGLINTON,
in the absence of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, and in total ignorance of all the circumstances connected with this matter, thought that it would be extremely hazardous in him to give an opinion as to this lunatic asylum being placed in this particular spot; neither in his absence would he dare to say one word in dispraise of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. He as fully believed that that noble Lord was as free from all charges of corruption and jobbery as he (the Earl of Eglinton) felt himself to have been during his tenure of office. He knew the manner in which such questions as this came before the Lord Lieutenant, and it was this:—They were referred to a Committee of the Privy Council, and the Lord Lieutenant signed the decision of that Committee—he would not say in ignorance—but at all events in a manner which rendered him as innocent and free from all blame, as was any one of their Lordships. Though, however, he acquitted the Lord Lieutenant, he did not acquit the system, which, on the contrary, he thought was entirely erroneous. In all these cases of county questions the opinions of the magistrates, of the gentry and tenantry ought to be taken into consideration; and in this respect the system should be altered. When he was, to use the phrase of the noble Earl, the Chief Stipendiary of Ireland during the late Government, a Bill was brought forward by the Administration in the other House for the better government of lunatic asylums, and it got as far as a Select Committee in the other House, and would have become law had it not been for the dissolution. That Bill proposed to give the county magistrates almost the sole management of these asylums, subject merely to the approval of the Lord Lieutenant. He thought it desirable that some such Bill should still be passed. His noble Friend 1009 complained of the Lord Lieutenant not being present in that House to answer for the jobs he had committed; but he must call their Lordships' attention to the fact that if the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland were to be frequently present in that House it would not be possible for him to do his duty in the country he was sent to govern. It was the duty of Her Majesty's Government, however, to answer for him in his absence; and, when due notice had been given of the present Motion, he thought the noble Earl opposite might have informed himself so as to give more satisfactory information on the subject.

§ EARL GRANVILLE
said, that any suggestion for the improvement of the present system coming from the noble Earl would be received with that attention which it deserved. He was sorry, as to the particular case, that he was unable to give any additional information to that which would appear on the face of the correspondence.

THE EARL OF DESART
addressed a few observations to the House which were inaudible.

THE EARL OF CLANCARTY
said, he thought it would be matter of great regret, in Ireland if anything were said against the principle of maintaining the office of Lord Lieutenant of Ireland; and he thought that the appointment to that high office of a nobleman entirely unconnected with the country was the best arrangement that could possibly be made. The public in Ireland looked with the utmost confidence to the Lord Lieutenant's high-minded opinion, which was, in fact, their only resource when they felt aggrieved by the public functionaries. The whole country felt greatly indebted to the noble Earl (the Earl of Eglinton) for the laborious and painstaking manner in which he had administered the affairs of Ireland. He did not believe there was a single individual in that country who felt that any act performed by the noble Earl had been inconsistent with his high and important duties.

THE EARL OF LEITRIM
said, he did not intend to say one word against the office of the Lord Lieutenant; what he complained of was the manner in which the duties wore performed by the present Viceroy. He entirely agreed with what had been said by his noble Friend who last addressed the House. Nothing could be more honourable and correct than the course of the noble Earl (the Earl of Eglinton) when he filled that office; but the contrast between him and Lord Carlisle 1010 was as great as that between light and darkness.