Lords Sitting of 29 March 1860

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Unnion of Befices. 2a Marriages (Extra-Parochial).

DWELLINGS FOR LABOURING CLASSES (IRELAND) BILL.—COMMITTEE.
On Motion that the House do go into Committee on the Dwellings for Labouring Classes (Ireland) Bill,
THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, he hoped the Bill would be allowed to pass through Committee. He understood the Board of Public Works in Ireland had been consulted, and had stated that they had no objection to the measure, being perfectly satisfied that the Treasury could be guaranteed against the possibility of any abuse of the provisions of the Bill. Looking at some of the objections that had been made against the Bill he thought the matter had been looked at by some in too narrow a spirit. There had been a great diminution of available labour in Ireland owing to the extensive emigration, and the fact that labour was in greater request in
1472
other countries; The true remedy against a further diminution was to increase the temptation to the labouring class to remain at home; and no one could doubt that one of the first steps in that direction was to improve their dwellings. This Bill was therefore one step in the right direction. He would mention to their Lordships that the Farmers' Club of the County Westmeath had sent to him a petition, signed by the president, to present to the House in favour of the Bill, which stated, that there were in that county 100,000 dwellings which were valued by the Government valuators at from 5s. to 1s. per annum, and that such dwellings in the majority of instances were wholly unfit for the abode of human beings. He thought their Lordships would see that it was highly important for the country and for the State that something should be done to improve the dwellings of the labouring classes, in order, if possible, to check the emigration which was so regularly going on of the best of those classes. Surely the improvement of the dwellings of the labouring class was as important an object as draining and improving the land.
THE MARQUESS OF WESTMEATHsaid, he had seen no reason to change the opinion he had expressed on the first discussion. As to the petition from the Farmers' Club of Westmeath, it was really the petition of only one gentleman, who was quite as peculiar in his opinions as the noble Marquess himself. If new dwelling-houses were built under the Act, who was to keep them in repair? The Board of Works was to provide the machinery of the Bill, but they were not told what that machinery was to be. He was as much convinced of the necessity of improving the dwellings of the labouring class as the noble Marquess; but the object of the Bill seemed to him to be to enable a man who had no house to ask another man to build one for him. Neither was it stated in the Bill whether the improved dwellings were to be built in the streets of towns or on farms. He would not oppose going into Committee, but his opinion of the measure was not changed.
THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLEsaid, that a clause would be proposed in Committee which would meet the objections of the noble Marquess, and also that he had received a letter from Sir R. Griffiths, the Chief Commissioner of the Irish Board of Works, approving of some such arrangements as were provided by the Bill.

1473
The Chief Commissioner stated his belief that the general Act under which the Board was constituted gave ample powers to the Treasury to frame any additional regulations as to the application of loans of public money under this Bill; no clause was required to state the manner in which the money should be applied; the power of the Treasury to lay down stringent regulations on the point was sufficient. Under these circumstances he hoped it would be seen that the interests of all parties concerned and those of the landlords of Ireland would be better served by the Bill as it stood rather than by not legislating on the subject.
LORD REDESDALEsaid, the House, in extending the powers to grant money for the improvement of estates in Ireland, were as fully competent as the Treasury to fix the terms on which those improvements should be undertaken. Any person bearing in mind the object with which the Bill was introduced would admit that no cottages ought to be built for the accommodation of a greater number of labourers than were required for the proper cultivation of the particular estate. He believed the House would therefore do well to adopt a clause empowering the Board of Works to see that no more cottages were built than were absolutely required. The Amendment of which he had given notice was intended to have that effect.
THE EARL OF WICKLOWsaid, that the object of the Bill was very valuable, but thought that the Amendment suggested by the noble Lord who had last addressed them was exceedingly desirable, and if their Lordships would not sanction such a clause he hoped the Treasury would take care that similar restrictions were enforced. He doubted whether the proposed provision went far enough, for it appeared to him not only desirable that the restrictions should be made as to the building of cottages, but that provision should be made for the maintenance of the cottages that were built. The general good sense of the Irish landlords would prevent abuse; but in some cases the landlords might take advantage of the loans for the purpose of building cottages, which they would let at a high rent; but they would also retain the old and worthless habitations which it was the object of this measure to get rid of.
VISCOUNT DUNGANNONobserved that it certainly was most desirable that provision should be made for the mainte-
1474
nance of the new cottages to be erected under this Act, for if left to themselves, as was too often the case in Ireland, they would fall into ruin and decay. The removal of the original cottages, which were in most cases mere hovels, fit neither for human nor animal occupation, should be provided for. The Bill he believed to be a most useful measure; but it ought to be accompanied by protective clauses.
House in Committee.
Bill reported without Amendment.
LORD REDESDALE LORD REDESDALE moved a clause giving power to the Board of Works to exercise control over the number of cottages to be erected on the estate. Their maintenance in good repair would be secured in a great degree by the supervision of the officers of the Board of Works, who, as long as there was money to be repaid, would take care that the security was kept in proper order; and, as the repayment was to extend over a period of twenty-two years, the extent to which these buildings would be suffered to want repair could not be very serious. The Board, too, would no doubt take care that the cottages were efficiently maintained, so as to produce a rent adequate as a security for the repayment of the loan. He left the removal of the old buildings altogether at the discretion of the Commissioners of Works, who would be guided by the proportionate increase which might take place in the population.
Amendment moved to
"Omit the Words ('the Labouring Classes in Ireland,') and insert ('Labourers and their Families in any Case in which it shall appear to the Commissioners for Public Works in Ireland that more or improved Accommodation for such Labourers is required; and the Commissioners, as the Condition of such Loan, shall require existing Dwellings to be removed, if they shall consider such Removal expedient, and shall not sanction the Erection of any greater Number of Dwellings by means of such Loan than they shall consider sufficient for the Accommodation of the Labourers required for the proper Cultivation of the Estate on which any such Loan is to be advanced, or of the Portion of such Estate on which such Dwellings are to be erected.")
THE MARQUESS OF WESTMEATHcomplained that the principle was about to be departed from of making the money expended on these estates reproductive.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRYsaid, those who were interested in the passing of this measure looked for its re-productiveness to the increased comfort which it would bestow on the labouring class. It was very desirable to know what

1475
amount still remained at the disposal of the Board of Works, for he had been informed some time ago that the then Chancellor of the Exchequer refused to sanction the re-issue of money which had been repaid to the Commissioners, or was in course of repayment, unless a fresh Parliamentary grant were made for the purpose.
THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEexpressed a hope that there would be a report from the, Board of Works setting forth the effect in Ireland of the loan as hitherto applied; because he thought it would appear from such a document that the Board of Works had done its duty, that the landlords and tenants for life of the property had also done their duty, and that the Loan Act had been altogether of the greatest utility to Ireland. He objected to the proposed clause, because it would unnecessarily fetter the discretion of the Commissioners, and because it would be sure to occasion objection in the other House of Parliament.
THE MARQUESS OF BATHsupported the clause, which would, he thought, constitute a useful rule for the guidance of the Commissioners of the Board of Works.
THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLEsaid, he had made inquiries on the subject, and he had found that there was a sum of money under the old Loan Act, which would be applicable for this purpose, if the Bill were passed. He objected to the proposed clause, because to enact this restriction without others, would be to say to the Commissioners, that this was the only restriction imposed upon them; whereas there were many other rules by which they ought equally to be bound. He hoped, therefore, that under the circumstances their Lordships would not agree to the clause proposed by his noble Friend.
THE EARL OF MALMESBURYsaid, that he had not any property in Ireland, and he must confess he was very ignorant of the particular points to which reference had been made in the observations that had been addressed to their Lordships. He had, however, listened to the remarks made by noble Lords connected with Ireland, and they seemed to be pretty equally divided. He should, under these circumstances, act as he would if the question was one which related to England; and if his noble Friend (Lord Redesdale) divided the House, he should vote with him. He should do so on this ground, that when agreements of this sort were entered into, they ought to be made as perfect and com-
1476
plete as possible, and that as little discretion as possible ought to be left in any body of Commissioners, or any body whatever. When loans were granted they could not be too explicit in stating how and why, those loans were advanced, and why and how they were to be expended. He did not doubt the accuracy of the noble Duke's statement, that the matter which he proposed to leave in the hands of the Treasury would be perfectly safe in their hands, but on principle he thought they ought not to trouble the Treasury with the exercise of the discretion which the noble Duke proposed to vest in them.
On Question, that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill?
Their Lordships divided:—Contents 24; Not-Contents 26: Majority 2.

CONTENTS.

Newcastle, D.

Lyveden, L.

Somerset, D.

Methuen, L.

Pensonby, L. (E. Bessborough.)

Clarendon, E.

De Grey, E.

Somerhill, L. (M. Clanricarde.)

Ducie, E.

Grey, E.

Stanley of Alderley, L.

Saint Germans, E.

Stewart of Stewart's Court, L. (M. Londonderry.)

Vane, E.

Eversley, V.

Strafford, L. (V. Enfield.)

Sydney, V.

Sundridge, L. (D. Argyll.)

Clarendon, E.

Cranworth, L.

Truro, L.

De Tabley, L.

Wodehouse, L.

Foley, L. [Teller.]

NOT-CONTENTS.

Bath, M. [Teller.]

Dungannon, V. [Teller.]

Salisbury, M.

Westmeath, M.

Broderick, L. (V. Middleton.)

Amherst, E.

Chelmsford, L.

Carnarvon, E.

Clifton, L. (E. Darnley.)

Cathcart, E.

Colchester, L.

Lucan, E.

Denman, L.

Malmesbury, E.

Digby, L.

Powis, E.

Downes, L.

Stanhope, E.

Egerton, L.

Verulam, E.

Redesdale, L.

Wicklow, E.

Saltoun, L.

Winton, E. [E. Eglintoun.]

Templemore, L.

Wynford, L.

Words struck out; other words inserted; Clause, as amended, agreod to: Bill to be read 3a on Monday next.

THE YEOMANRY CAVALRY.

  THE HORSE TAX.—QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONasked the Under Secretary of State for War, Whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's

  1477
  Government to allow an Exemption of the Horse Tax in respect of the Yeomanry Cavalry during the present year. The Yeomanry Cavalry enrolled previously to 1859 were entitled to this exemption; but many had been enrolled during the last twelve months, under the circumstances that had led to the formation of Volunteer Corps, and under these circumstances he hoped to hear that the exemption would be extended to them.
  EARL DE GREY AND RIPONsaid, the Government had decided to grant an exemption of the Horse Tax to the Yeomanry in the fullest sense; that was to say, it would embrace both the classes to which the noble Lord had referred. He wished to take that opportunity of stating also that the Act which relieved the Yeomanry from the Horse Tax, applied equally to Mounted Volunteer Corps; and that persons belonging to these corps were entitled to be exempted from the tax, if they performed the duty required by the Act of Parliament.

INDIAN FINANCE.

  MOTION FOR PAPERS.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, be hoped the noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Argyll) would be able to inform their Lordships that the Government were officially in possession of the speech of Mr. Wilson, in which that Gentleman made an exposition of the financial position of India, and of the manner in which he proposed to deal with it. If the Government were authentically in possession of that speech, he thought it most desirable that they should lay it before the House. It was a speech of singular ability, and explained very fully the former and present state of the finances of India. But at the same time he must confess that the appendices attached to it were not altogether as complete as could be wished, inasmuch as they did not give the receipts of revenue for successive years. Those appendices gave an account of the deficit and surplus, and of the expenditure in successive years, but gave no account of the actual state of the receipts. He thought that omission ought to be supplied; and also that it was very desirable their Lordships should be put in possession of the account of the state of the balances in the hands of the Government in the various Treasuries of India. He was inclined to think it would be found, in the answer to
  1478
  the return he proposed to move for, that a very considerable portion of those balances consisted of deposits over which the Government had no power whatever. He might mention one that came under his own knowledge, to the amount of £500,000, over which the Government certainly had no power—that was the amount of the sums paid in under the head of prize money to the troops. He proposed to move for an account of the amount of the sums so situated, and of the purposes to which they were appropriated. He was very much struck by the amount of revenue which Mr. Wilson stated he expected—en amount, after deducting all charges of assessment and collection, of more than £37,000,000. If that were the case, what must be the position of Indian finances now compared with what they were in 1857, when revenue and expenditure were equalized? Still, he should like to entertain a sanguine hope in regard to them, because while in our own country the interest of the public debt amounted to a third of the whole public revenue, in India it amounted to only a sixth. India was, therefore, not only one of the most lightly, if not the most lightly, taxed of all countries, but also the one most lightly indebted. Mr. Wilson proposed, by great economy and by extending the taxation of the country, to equalize the revenue and expenditure. His own impression had always been, and was now as strong as ever, that the only true foundation of economy in the administration of the finances of India was to be found in a thorough reconciliation between the Government and the people. Now, he did not think any progress was made towards that result by the plan of finance which Mr. Wilson had propounded. Instead of confining himself to the novelties of finance, he proposed to go back to the most antiquated notions, and to impose a graduated poll tax. Everybody, down to the mere artizan, was to be subjected to it. Now, he could imagine no system of taxation more distasteful to the people. He did not think it would promote good feeling between the people and Government to subject the artizans to that tax and to bring them into direct contact with the tax assessor and collector. Neither was the new tax on tobacco a measure tending to the popularity of the Government, it would be sure to create great dissatisfaction. It was stated that Mr. Wilson intended to levy the income tax upon all

  1479
  classes of the community. He felt confident that this must be an oversight, and that he had no intention of making it apply to the non-commissioned officers and privates of the army. The income tax, however, was to be a general tax upon all classes of persons. He confessed that a tax of that description would be extremely advantageous if there were a hope of making the people believe that it would be levied with thorough honesty and in accordance with the pledged word of the Government, and if also there existed in that country any machinery for the assessment and collection of the tax in a manner that would be just to the people. No doubt the Government had been held to be precluded for many years from levying in the settled provinces taxes upon the zemindars. He was satisfied that these persons would not think the Government had acted justly, and he was disposed to think that their under-tenants would be of the same opinion. He was afraid the measure of redress which the zemindars would adopt would be to make their under-tenants pay the tax and to save themselves. In this country there was ample machinery of a trustworthy character for assessing and levying the income tax, and a respectable tribunal before which appeals were heard from those who thought themselves aggrieved. But how would it be possible in the social state of India to find any similar body of persons or the requisite machinery for levying the tax with common justice? He was afraid he knew what the result would be—a constant conflict between extortion on the one side and fraud on the other, and no trustworthy body to decide between them. However advantageous, therefore, the tax would be if it could be honestly and fairly carried out, be feared that it would excite the deepest and strongest discontent throughout the whole of the country. There was one passage in the speech of Mr. Wilson to which he desired to draw their Lordships' attention, because he thought that in the expressions used by him in respect to the army there was more danger than in any scheme of taxation in India. Mr. Wilson desired to make a very large reduction of the Native army. Mr. Wilson said the time was favourable for this reduction; and no doubt at the termination of a great war there was a general desire for a large reduction in the military expenditure. Mr. Wilson said:—
  "The Sepoy army, which so long has been our
  1480
  real danger in India—which so long has been, if not a standing menace, at least a standing source of apprehension to our far-seeing statesmen—has at last dissolved itself: an army petted and spoiled by indulgences inconsistent with discipline—a close body, self-recruited by the men themselves, with brothers, and cousins, and relatives, of which many understood the danger, but which none had the boldness to incur the risk of dealing with,—that army has disappeared, and is blotted out. This Frankenstein, which at one time was only alluded to with bated breath and in a whisper, when it was discussed as a source of insecurity, has committed suicide, and can be spoken of openly and all its errors exposed. I hope the example it has set and the experience it has given us will never be forgotten."
  Mr. Wilson added:—"Our local European army also is gone." Now, at the time that Mr. Wilson said that, the real state of the local European army was as follows:—10,000 men had taken their discharge. Most unfortunately, and without previous reflection and consideration, Lord Palmerston, being then Minister, expressed in the course of debate, apparently to get rid of an inconvenient suggestion, an opinion which was taken advantage of by the soldiers, who demanded their discharge or a fresh bounty if they continued. Unfortunately the Government took no reasonable step to remove that impression. They told the troops that their claim was inadmissible, without giving any reason for that assertion; until, alarmed by the position in which they found the army, they gave reasons for continuing to hold the nullity of the claim at the very moment when they were conceding it. The Government of India forgot that it was a case in which they must not only be just, but must also make these men understand that they were just. At the very moment, however, when Mr. Wilson talked of the local European army having gone, there existed in India an army of nearly 12,000 men, 6,000 of whom were Artillery. Every one who has communicated with officers of Her Majesty's army who have served in India must be aware that there was no Artillery in the world superior to that of the East India Company. When Mr. Wilson spoke, 3,300 more men, sent out before the 1st of December, must either have arrived or were on the point of arriving, and of this number 1,286 were Artillery, Therefore there were in India more than 15,000 men of the local army, nearly half of whom were Artillery. There were also nearly 1,400 recruits in this country, of whom 454 were Artillery. So that the total force of that army, which

  1481
  Mr. Wilson represented as non-existent, was 16,500 men, of whom 7,700 were Artillery. Then with respect to that army, upon whose fidelity and loyalty the preservation of India depended, it was expedient that Mr. Wilson should have taken pains to be a little better instructed. The expressions of Mr. Wilson were perfectly plain, and they were expressions without exception; but, however, they might apply to the larger portion of the Bengal army, they were wholly inapplicable to the armies of Bombay and Madras, which had been faithful found among the faithless, and who had assisted in achieving all the great victories of Central India. They had fought throughout steadily on our side; and the total force of this Sepoy army, of which Mr. Wilson spoke so disparagingly, was hardly short of 200,000. There was a degree of indiscretion most dangerous in a person of such high authority hazarding such statements. What was the real extent of the army? There remained of the old Bengal army 15 regiments of regular Infantry. There were 52 regiments of regular Infantry at Madras and 29 in Bombay, making 96 regiments of regular Infantry, of which the establishment was very little short of 90,000 men. At Madras and Bombay there were 11 regiments of regular Cavalry, and in Bengal 11 regiments of irregular Cavalry. There were also 10 or 20 corps of the irregular Bengal Infantry who had remained perfectly faithful. Mr. Wilson's general censure, therefore, upon the whole Sepoy army reflected upon 200,000 men who had fought by our side, and had contributed to the very political tranquillity that afforded the Government the means of imposing this taxation. A paper had been laid before their Lordships relative to the distribution of the officers of the disbanded regiments which was very instructive, and gave a great deal of information as to the maimer in which the Government disposed of these officers and the real utility of the local and Native army. Of the officers of the disbanded regiments there were not less than 275 who were employed in situations that had reference to the civil government of the country. Of these 115 officers were engaged in political and civil employment; there were 64 in the Police Force; 58 in the Commissariat, and 38 in the Public Works. Of the remaining Native regiments there were 40 officers employed in a similar way. The officers of the Bengal European regiments were 36, and
  1482
  of the Artillery 21; so that there were not less than 372 officers besides Engineers at present employed under the Bengal Government in offices of a civil character. Probably there were as many at Madras and Bombay. So that at the present time there must be from 700 to 800 officers employed in the discharge of civil duties. There was no body of officers to be found to whom the performance of civil duties could be so well intrusted. They were men who made India their home, who had been the pride and spirit of the Native army, who had acquired the languages of India, who were identified with the country, who looked forward to obtaining their reputation and fortune by the performance of the duties with which they were entrusted. He did not know how it would be possible, if they were to dispense with the local army, to find persons qualified for these appointments. No doubt, there were men to be found in Her Majesty's army who might devote themselves in the same way to the acquisition of the languages and to a knowledge of the general affairs of India, so as to qualify themselves for public service in India; but they must always be considered as comparatively strangers in the land—as men who felt that they were there only for a time; who looked to England and not to India, and it was not reasonable therefore, to suppose that they could furnish the same description of officers in every respect as well qualified for the civil service of the country. But there was another consideration that had pressed itself strongly on his mind in connection with this subject. They must recollect that in India there was no class apart from the army prepared to support the Government. They had no resources but in the army, and the control of that army must be found within itself—in its own organization and its own discipline. Between the Queen's army and the Native and the English local army there had been rivalry, but nothing beyond rivalry; there had been great emulation between them, and on many occasions it had been found that this had materially contributed to the maintenance of the authority of the Government. He did not think, therefore, that it would be safe to attempt to form in that country a homogeneous army. In such an army, grievances, whether real or imaginary, would arise and affect the whole body, and the Government would, in that case, have no arm on which to rest its authority. Last year he had used an ex-

  1483
  pression in that House with respect to the Indian army which he would now repeat—that they should build their vessel in compartments, so that, in the event of a misfortune, at least some part of it might be left intact. One word as to the position in which the noble army of the late East India Company was now placed. The officers and men of that army had now been waiting for eighteen months, perhaps not very patiently, for the decision of the Government in respect to their case. They knew that they had in their favour certain words in an Act of Parliament that were meant to preserve to them all the material benefits they were entitled to derive from their profession; but they had no security for their families and those dependent upon them, and the officers had no security that they would not be driven into the position of retired officers, and deprived altogether of the opportunity of sharing in the future enterprises of the army, and distinguishing themselves as they had hitherto done. This was a very hard position in which to place a great body of officers; and it must e recollected that when such a man as Mr. Wilson addressed the public with reference to the army of India as he had done, the whole of that army would feel that in the mind of one of the most able Members of the Government, at least, it was not intended to fulfil their expectations. This state of uncertainty had existed too long, and ought not to last longer. Justice should be done to those brave officers and men; some consideration should be shown for their feelings; and he trusted that when Her Majesty's Government met Parliament again they would be enabled to inform the country that they had recognized their services, and placed the future of the army of India on a firm, secure, and honourable basis. The noble Earl then moved an Address for—
  Income of India in each Year, from the Year ending on the 30th of April 1834 inclusive.
  Statement of the Total Cost and Charge of Collection in every Branch of the Revenue, and of the Total Amount of all Territorial and Political Pensions, and of all Allowances to District and Village Officers and Emandars, and of all charitable Grants in each of the above Years.
  Statement of all Sums advanced in India on account of Military and Naval Operations in China and repayable by Her Majesty's Government; showing the Years in which such Advances were made respectively, and the Years in which they were repaid.
  Statement showing on what several Accounts the Sums in the several Treasuries of India on the 30th of April 1859 had been paid in; at what Periods and under what Circumstances such Sums
  1484
  were severally liable to be paid out, and the Balance remaining at the absolute Disposal of the Government of India for the Service of the current Year.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, he hoped to show the noble Earl that a copy of Mr. Wilson's statement could not be laid on the table of the House. Mr. Wilson had sent home copies of his statement to the President and members of the Indian Council, and also to a few individual gentlemen, of whom the noble Earl was one. It was perfectly true that the propositions contained in the document had received the sanction of the Governor General and his Council; but for the form and the terms in which they were conveyed Mr. Wilson was individually responsible. It was not usual to make a Parliamentary document of any speech delivered by a Minister at home, and of course it could not be done in regard to India; he was sure, therefore, that his noble Friend would not ask them to produce, as a Parliamentary document, a speech for which Mr. Wilson was alone responsible. Disclaiming all responsibility for the terms used by Mr. Wilson in his speech, he must at the same time say that he thought his noble Friend had borne a little too hardly on Mr. Wilson in his interpretation of those passages of the speech to which he had referred, and had gone a little further than Mr. Wilson's language warranted him in doing. In speaking of the financial question, his noble Friend had, he thought, materially exaggerated the objections that might lie against Mr. Wilson's propositions. His noble Friend seemed to have forgotten the peculiar position in which the Government of India was placed. They had a deficit very much the same as that which we had to deal with at home in the current year, namely, £9,000,000; and they had the prospect in the following year of a deficit of not less than £6,500,000. Now, he agreed with the noble Earl in. thinking that the best economy in India was to stand well with the Native population; but he defied any Minister to meet a deficit of £9,000,000, without having recourse to some new sources of revenue; and though his noble Friend had found fault with Mr. Wilson's propositions, he had not stated what means he himself would have resorted to in the same circumstances. Although he did not agree with Mr. Wilson in the opinion that the land tax was not a tax, he believed that the people of India were overtaxed or

  1485
  overrented (whichever term might be considered the right one), in regard to the land; but Mr. Wilson did not propose to bring in any increased revenue by adding to that tax; on the contrary, he had pointed out that an actual increase of revenue had been produced by lowering the land tax; and, therefore, as regarded that tax or impost no increase was proposed. That being the case, it could not be said with accuracy that the new system of taxation would be made to press with severity on the great mass of the population. As to the income tax, his noble Friend had forgotten to point out, what Mr. Wilson stated in his speech, that there always existed a certain amount of machinery in India that might be usefully used for its collection. Then with regard to the army, his noble Friend had laid far too much stress on particular words employed by Mr. Wilson. Whatever might be the construction that could be put on those words, it was manifest that when Mr. Wilson spoke of the Sepoy army having committed suicide when it broke out into the late mutiny, only a few regiments remaining in whose loyalty we could confide, he meant the Bengal army. It was perfectly clear that when he used the words quoted by his noble Friend, he had not in his mind the great armies of Madras and Bombay, by whose assistance the mutiny was quelled. It could not be said that the local European army had ceased to exist; but the noble Earl seemed to forget that, owing to the fact that so many of the men had taken their discharge, almost every regiment of that army was reduced to a skeleton. [The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH: No, no!] The noble Earl was, he thought, not correct in holding that opinion, for he found, from a Return which he held in his hand, that the number of men who had taken their discharge from the Bengal 1st Light Cavalry were 436; from the 2nd, 592, or more than one-half; and from the 3rd, 509. There was not, in short, one of the regiments of that army from which less than 300 men had taken their discharge; the regiments, therefore, had been reduced to skeletons. The question of dealing with the local army was one in reference to which the noble Earl must also take into account the circumstances in which the Government were placed. The late Government had appointed a Commission to inquire into and report on the subject. That Commission comprised two Secretaries of State, as well as a very
  1486
  considerable number of officers connected with the Indian army. The result of the investigation was—the two Secretaries of State having abstained from voting—that the majority of the Commission reported against a local army being maintained in that country. Almost all the officers of the Queen's service voted against retaining the local army, and almost all the officers of the East India Company's army voted in favour of retaining it. The Government of the day had under those circumstances to adopt a certain course, and they decided in favour of its maintenance in the proportion of 2–5ths to 3–5ths of the Line. Such was the position of affairs when Her Majesty's present advisers had come into office. His right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for India accordingly announced last year in the House of Commons that, having duly weighed the arguments which had been advanced on both sides of the question, he had determined to adhere to the decision with respect to it at which his predecessors in office had arrived. He might, however, be permitted to observe that, although at the time when the Commission was appointed the opinion of the late Company's officers had been almost unanimous in favour of keeping up a local army in India, events had subsequently occurred by which that opinion had to a considerable extent been altered, and which caused the amalgamation of that army with the Queen's to be regarded, especially by the younger officers, as an object which it was desirable to effect. He had, indeed, been informed that these officers looked upon such a step as one which would be calculated to contribute to their own professional advantage, instead of imagining that their prosperity was bound up with the maintenance of a separate army. He might quote a large number of influential names in support of that view, that it was expedient that the amalgamation of the two armies should take place; but the only one which he should on the present occasion mention was that of Sir Patrick Grant, Commander-in-Chief of the Army of Madras, and a distinguished officer of the late Company, Who had, through the usual channels of information, declared himself to be favourable to that opinion. He did not, however, mean to say that the Government had determined to act in accordance with that particular view. Indeed, he almost used Mr. Wilson's very words, saying that the late local army was at an end, and that it

  1487
  ought to be amalgamated with the Queen's army. He did not say that that was the opinion of the Government. The question involved considerations of a very complicated, nature and required to be dealt with wife due deliberation. He was, nevertheless, prepared to admit that unless means could be found not only fully to provide that the interests of officers in India should not suffer, but also for securing for the future in that country a class of men valuable—or rather invaluable—for the discharge of those duties connected with the civil service which they had hitherto performed—it would be absolutely essential, for some time at least, to maintain a certain amount of local force in India. There were of course, those who were of opinion that not only could provision be made for the officers of that force now in India, but that we should be enabled to secure for the future a supply of men both able and willing to devote their whole lives to the Indian service. Unless means to effect those objects could be found it was a question of the utmost importance to consider whether the determination of the late and of the present Government in the matter was not one to which it was desirable to adhere. With respect to the officers of the local army now in India, he might be allowed to refer to a retain from which the noble Earl had quoted, and which proved that, so far as they were concerned, no injury had hitherto bees done to their interests. He found by that return that out of the number of 1,151, including both officers of the local and Native army, there were only sixty-four who were not employed in the performance of either civil or military duties; so that they, at all events had no right to complain that a hardship had been inflicted upon them. In conclusion, he had simply to repeat that the subject was under the consideration of the Government, and would receive at their hands that attention which its importance demanded.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHobserved, that at the end of the last Session Government brought in a Bill to enable the Crown to increase the strength of the local army in India; so that at least at that time the tendency of opinion was in favour of maintaining a local army. His opinion had not been in the slight agree varied by the events which had occurred, and he could not express too strongly his conviction that our future security in India depended altogether on maintaining that di-
  1488
  versity in the composition of the army in India that had hitherto been maintained.
  LORD LYVEDENsaid, that although the financial statement of Mr. Wilson had been received by the editors of newspapers and some private persons, it had not been officially communicated. Although, therefore, the Government could not lay on their Lordships' table the speech of Mr. Wilson, yet probably they could produce some information which would enable their Lordships to discuss the merits of that statement on some other occasion. The noble Earl (the Earl of Ellenborough) had introduced this subject in a speech of the deepest interest; but there was hardly a question relating to the Indian Empire that had not been introduced into that speech, and in a totally unexpected manner, and therefore it would be utterly impossible to continue the discussion on that evening. He hoped, however, that some future opportunity would be afforded of discussing the important subject which was more immediately before them. If he understood aright the duty imposed on Mr. Wilson was, that he would have to propose Acts in the Legislative Council to carry out the proposed alteration; but unless that body had altered its roles of business, three months must elapse between some one stage and another, through which these measures must pass. He should like to know whether it was the intention of the Indian Government to suspend the usual rules, so as to enable the Government to pass the Acts in a more summary manner. The moment the Acts passed the duties imposed would be levied, even though the Government at home should afterwards annul the Acts; and therefore the matter stood much the same as a Resolution of the House of Commons repealing or imposing a duty previous to the assent of Parliament to the measure by which it was proposed to give permanent effect to the Resolution. If the old rule as to three months elapsing between the stages remained, then, of course, the Legislature here would have ample opportunity of discussing the matter; but if that rule were not to continue, then the sooner the necessary infermation to enable them to discuss Mr. Wilson's proposal, were laid on the table the better. He was to believed, when in the other House, the first person who proposed in that House to send out a financial Councillor to India, though the noble Earl (the Earl of Ellenborough) might have originally

  1489
  ventilated the scheme before their Lordships; Lord Stanley coincided in the opinion expressed; and ultimately Mr. Wilson was sent out. He was not, however, in the least responsible for sending out Mr. Wilson, but, without approving all he had done, he must say that Mr. Wilson was the only person who had grappled with the difficulty. For years they had gone on with a deficiency in the revenue, and confusion in the accounts. [The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH:—I never could understand them.] They were, indeed, unintelligible—and the Government of India had not discovered the errors in the accounts or made any proposal to meet the difficulty. They had appointed fifteen Gentlemen at home, on account of their supposed experience, but not one of them could invent any scheme to set right the Indian finances. The public were paid off with a convenient cant word that the Revenue was not "elastic." Although Mr. Wilson might possibly have acted hastily, yet he contended that the public were immensely indebted to him for the gallantry with which he had met the difficulty. The first thing he did was to impose an income tax, of the elasticity of which their Lordships knew something, or would do next year. He believed that this was a measure which it would be found possible to Work, though there might be many difficulties in its way. He believed that the noble Earl had himself admitted that there were no persons so lightly taxed as the merchants in India, and the difficulty of getting at their resources was only the same difficulty as was found to exist in this country. He believed it could be levied on them as easily as on the merchants of London. He should like to know whether there was any despatch in which Mr. Wilson had referred to his proposals which could be laid before the House; and he should also wish to know whether these proposals had the sanction of Lord Canning, and whether the Council coincided with Mr. Wilson. He perfectly agreed with the noble Earl (the Earl of Ellenborough) that, although he was not prepared to say to what amount, there must be some local army maintained in India.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, he was afraid that Mr. Wilson would be too fast for the noble Lord, for he thought it might be inferred from that Gentleman's speech that the Standing Orders would be put aside and the measures passed without
  1490
  delay. He himself found great difficulties, financial as well as military, bequeathed to him when he arrived in India. He had to look around in all directions to discover the means of raising money. Amongst other means that of establishing an income tax was considered, but the difficulties of assessing it and collecting it were so great, and it seemed expedient to allow of so many exceptions, that the plan was given up on account of the smallness of the sum it would have realized. He dismissed altogether the idea of taxing the army, as a thing which was suicidal and altogether contrary to reason. One great practical difficulty in dealing with the wealthy Natives was this, that they were in the habit of lending their money to numerous individuals at very high interest, and he did not know how it would be possible to get at their incomes.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, there was no accompanying despatch and no official information which the Government could produce. Of course, as soon as any despatch arrived, it would be presented to the House. He hoped that the Government in India would lose no time in passing the measures. It had been the object of Parliament, in passing the late Act, to form a strong Government for India, and also that the Government of India should be in India. It was necessary that the original action of the Government of India in matters of taxation, should be in India.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, he wished to be allowed to express one word of caution to the noble Duke and the Government. Let them observe that this great measure of taxation, which was to press on every individual in India, was committed to the decision of a legislative body, which, though composed of very respectable gentlemen, was altogether without the confidence of any one man in the country, and that this body was to dispose of the property of all the Natives, many of whom thought that it was contrary to good faith to tax them at all, and that there was not a Native, who was capable of expressing an opinion on the subject.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEhoped the Indian Government was not quite so bad as noble Lords opposite supposed. If so, what was the good of having an Indian Council at all? He had always heard this old song, that India should be governed in India; but practically they were always governing it from England. A Council formed of men of Indian expe-

  1491
  rience was appointed here, and then they sent out a gentleman, who had never been in India in his life, and in a few months he proposed that the whole population should be taxed. He hoped the speech of Mr. Wilson would be laid before the House. It must have come home, or been commented on in some Minute of the Council in Leadenhall Street. Or, if not, it might be made the subject of some innocent Minute, to which the speech might be added as an inclosure, and thus laid before the House. He hoped the whole subject, one of the very gravest importance, would be brought regularly before them.
  LORD WYNFORDasked, whether it was intended to form a staff corps of officers for India; and whether officers of the Indian army would be allowed to exchange into the Queen's Army?
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLstated (as we understood) that there would be a staff Organized for India; and that the other point had not been decided.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsuggested that the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Clanricarde) should move for the production of the documents he had referred to. If the Indian Council had any opinion on the subject, it was right that the House should know it.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, he was disposed to do so. The House had a right to know their opinions. They had been appointed to assist the Secretary of State, and he ought to be able to rely on their advice.
  Motion agreed, to.
  House adjourned at half-past Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.